sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<uiuc-slack> <amiller> thanks
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<andytoshi> amiller: you are correct, dealing with canadian ISP bullshit .. i've made a fair bit of progress on the paper today, will update tomorrow when my server is accessible again
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<garit> lets imagine this: we have billions of dots and trillions of relation between them showing attraction or repulsion. is it possible to use calculation about best folding of this structure as a proof of calculation(like hash in BTC)? is it possible to use small zones on this map, or can computers work with such large data at once?
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<garit> idea is that its very hard to find a best folding of this structure but very easy to check if its better than some other folding by calculating correlation between distances and attraction/repulsion relations
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<johnhardy> Does anybody know how rootstock plans to scale?
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<johnhardy> I had an idea for a tree of infinite blockchains, all with different properties (such as block creation time, approved opcodes). All block chains could communicate with their direct parent and children. They would all have their own addresses, like IPs, and you include the address of the deepest descendant blockchain you're hashing, so you can only mine on one at a time. You can use a hash on any parent blockchains if it m
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<johnhardy> e blockchain tree you have the master which is basically a DNS like registry of all the blockchains, and has the highest security, but also the highest transaction costs.
<sipa> how do the chains communicate?
<johnhardy> The idea is, trying to design a one size fits all (and forever) approach to scaling doesn't work, so creating a protocol that enables every shape and flavour to coexist and communicate, and the free market decides which succeed.
<kanzure> do you have an implementatio?
<kanzure> .. implementation
<johnhardy> I wrote about the idea on my blog
<sipa> johnhardy: this seems related to peter todd's treechains idea
<johnhardy> It is related
<sipa> (which i think always had unsolved issues)
<kanzure> similar ideas have been written up many times. do you have an implementation?
<johnhardy> any child must always synchronise with all parent blockchains including the master. If there's a reorganisation higher up the tree (higher difficulty) it affects all children
<sipa> do parent chains verify that transfers from child chains are legitimate?
<johnhardy> I've not got a technical implementation, it borrows from many existing ideas. Its more a way of bringling lots of different ideas together into something potentially infinitely scalable and dynamic.
<johnhardy> No, there is no verification by parents
<johnhardy> but a child chain can never create coins, it can only ever pass back up coins it has already recieved
<sipa> so child chain miners can steal all the funds?
<johnhardy> like a 2 way peg
<sipa> (that are in that child)
<johnhardy> merge mining with bitcoin blockchain and layer 2 solution, all the parent-child blockchains communicate in that same way
<sipa> merge mining isn't secure without an incentive to cooperate
<johnhardy> child miners cannot brake protocol rules or their blocks will be disregarded
<sipa> but parent chains don't validate
<sipa> sure, child chain full nodes will reject the theft
<sipa> but the parent chain full nodes won't, as they don't validate the child's internal transfers
<sipa> and since your child chain does not offer any reward beyond fees, it may be very hard to incentivize the miners on those not to steal the funds
<johnhardy> The mechanism used to take bitcoin out, and put it into a separate system like rootstock, and then be able to return that. Would that mechanism not work?
<sipa> barring the use of snarks for full validation of other chains, you can't make something where the transfer between two chains is more secure than what the child chain can pay in rewards
<sipa> as far as i know
<sipa> which is why i think sidechains are a bad idea beyond experimentation
<kanzure> sipa: wait does your opinion apply to multiple signers acting as functionaries for a peg?
<sipa> kanzure: no
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<sipa> using a federation for signing is the default solution to a model where you have trusted known parties
<sipa> proof of work (of which merge mining is an instantiation) is only needed if you want to get rid of those known identities, but it comes at the cost of changing your security assumptions: you're not longer assuming that the signers (miners now) are honest per se, you're assuming they're economically rational
<sipa> if your security assumption is "a majority of miners is honest, unconditionally", you're much better off replacing them with a federation
<sipa> so that means that any system that relies on PoW as consensus algorithm only has an advantage over a federated setup when in fact you do not unconditionally trust miners
<sipa> johnhardy: it would work, but it will only be secure under very questionable assumptions
<luke-jr> while true, the reality isn't so black-and-white IMO
<luke-jr> even if we limit the comparison to fed vs SPV, SPV at least requires a *prolonged* compromise of the trusted parties
<johnhardy> There is an acceptance of the system that the lower you go down the chain, the lower the hashrate/security. However the cheaper it gets
<kanzure> security status should ideally not be a shade of grey :P
<luke-jr> and obviously neither can compare to full-node security
<johnhardy> It leaves security and cost to the free market
<luke-jr> kanzure: that seems unavoidable :p
<sipa> johnhardy: i disagree. even at the first layer below the top, things break down
<johnhardy> If I was buying a house, I'd be on a high level blockchain. If I was buying a coffe I'd be on weak security
<sipa> johnhardy: if you're not paying miners ridiculously high fees there, there is no rational economic argument for its security
<kanzure> luke-jr: elaborate?
<luke-jr> johnhardy: it's not necessarily strong vs weak either. Lightning is arguably just as strong as the main chain, but has different security properties
<luke-jr> kanzure: there is no perfect security
<sipa> of course, it may well work in practice - maybe miners in your reality just won't behave dishonest at all... so much the better
<johnhardy> I agree, everything below the top level is a security compromise. However the only possible way to scale is to compromise
<johnhardy> If you want security you have to pay for it
<johnhardy> What sort of dishonst behaviour are you anticipating?
<sipa> stealing all the funds in all layers below
<sipa> which is something the top-level miners can do at any time in your design (correct me if i'm wrong)
<sipa> they can only steal as much as is moved to lower-level chains of course
<sipa> but if you want a scalable system, you must assume that a large portion of the funds will move to lower layers
<kanzure> i think drivechain was proposing OP_CHECK_VOTES_MULTISIG_VERIFY http://www.rootstock.io/blog/sidechains-drivechains-and-rsk-2-way-peg-design
<sipa> and in such a setting you've essentially surrendered control over the economics of your system to miners
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<kanzure> sipa: right. if you are willing to use that security model, then i think you might not need "miners" anyway. so you might as well move away from that model.
<sipa> kanzure: exactly
<kanzure> i think you can trivially show some scalability improvements from not using miners (in that security model). so you have no reason not to do that.....
<sipa> i'd rather have some elected politicians in charge of my currency than anonymous chinese ceos
<kanzure> er i didn't mean politically; i meant in terms of software implementation detail.
<sipa> well, mining is an incredibly expensive alternative to trusted identities
<sipa> it's the only one we have, but we shouldn't use it for systems that don't need it
<kanzure> so i think the original proposal was "use multisig/escrow on the mainchain" for the peg.
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<johnhardy> A feature of the system is that parents are aware of their children, and the hashing power of their children
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<johnhardy> This enables us to make certain security assumptions. If we know a child's hashrate, we can have a lock period and make sure no reports of bad behavious emerge
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<johnhardy> *behaviour
<sipa> you don't know the honest hashrate of the children, though
<johnhardy> You do
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<sipa> ?
<johnhardy> You know the hashrate by how frequently they mine a block that meets your difficulty
<sipa> sure
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<sipa> that doesn't mean they're honest
<johnhardy> and you can see the entire hashrate history
<johnhardy> true, but you only need >51% to be honest
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<johnhardy> and you can recognise when hashrate suddenly increases, and build in certain extra security precautions
<kanzure> that number is not right
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<sipa> am i wrong to say that a majority of the root chain can steal all the funds?
<sipa> they can censor all reports of bad behaviour
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<johnhardy> It is right, depending on how long of a confirmation period you have. If someone tries to steal, and then a good miner tries to undo the transaction before it is finalised... as long as 51% are good miners and they have enough time, they will be able to prevent it
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<sipa> i'm saying you cannot unconditionally assume that 51% is honest
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<sipa> because that is not necessarily the best rational strategy
<kanzure> and that if you do make that assumption, then you should change your design to take advantage of that new trust model
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<sipa> it is in bitcoin, assuming miners have horizons of a few months
<johnhardy> There are probably security improvements that can be implemented as a result of parents being notified about their children from time to time
<sipa> because the subsidy they'd lose by attacking the system is worse than what they can gain (and the amounts transferred aren't too large)
<sipa> but your child chains don't have any subsidy
<johnhardy> My concept is more an overview, a big vision of how infinite scaling could be accomplished. there are technical challenges, but I think there's some interesting ideas, some of which might be useful, some of which might not
<sipa> no, there are not technical challenges
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<sipa> you can't overcome them without having the parent chain somehow verify that transfers from children are legitimate
<johnhardy> If you have time, please have a look at the blog post if you haven't, it better articulates the concept and its goals: https://seebitcoin.com/2016/09/introducing-buzz-a-turing-complete-concept-for-scaling-bitcoin-to-infinity-and-beyond/
<sipa> otherwise you're reducing your entire sub-chain ecosystem to SPV
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<johnhardy> How come this same issue isn't considered a deal breaker for a two way peg with Bitcoin?
<kanzure> it is.
<johnhardy> I mean, I agree the issue is there, I just don't think its a deal breaker
<kanzure> we already went over what you should do if you're willing to use your different security assumptions
<johnhardy> Cool, I don't have the time to write a proper implementation, it's just a concept I wanted to discuss with the community, thank you all for participating
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