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<rhett>
Does anyone know if anything ever came of brahm cohen's idea for a proof of space coin?
<rhett>
Did anyone ever work out any good proof of space algorithms?
<rhett>
looks like there is burstcoin now
<Taek>
burstcoin is pretty old, from what I remember it's been inactive for over a year now
<Taek>
the closest thing is spacemint
<Taek>
but from what I remember they still have a handful of problems to sort out
<Taek>
rhett: I believe that spacemint is currenty state-of-the-art for proof of space
<rhett>
thanks Taek any idea what problems burstcoin or spacemint have?
<Taek>
Burstcoin most significantly had a computation-space tradeoff which I believe was significant. Aside from that, though I don't think anyone took the time to break their construction, I didn't get the impression that it would hold up to cryptanalysis
<Taek>
Spacemint I think also has a computation-space tradeoff, though they've taken steps to minimize how worthwhile it might be
<Taek>
From what I remember they depend on a trusted independent source of randomness, such as a NIST beacon
<Taek>
I know a few of the Spacement guys pop in here every once in a while, maybe one of them can talk to you about it
<rhett>
interesting, what are you working on ?
<Taek>
I spend most of my time working on a decentralized cloud storage platform called Sia
<Taek>
but I've also spent a fair amount of time recently on a DAG-based blockchain which I hope to speak about in the upcoming scaling bitcoin conference
<Taek>
it's not quite ready to publish yet, but I'm hoping to finish it in the next few days
<Taek>
I'm pretty much at the spell-check phase
<rhett>
Aren't all blockchains DAGs?
<Taek>
Bitcoin's blockchain is a strict subset, essentially a singly-linked list
<Taek>
I've adjusted the rules so that blocks can have multiple parents, without changing any of the security assumptions
<rhett>
sounds like git chain
<rhett>
i wonder how sia is different form storj coin, maidsafe, or ipfs
<rhett>
Is spacemint launched yet, or just a paper?
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<katu>
Taek: is there actually sound of PoS system out, or is it all fluff. im not fatching proof of erasure closely anymore, so if anything changed
<katu>
(last time i checked everything was just marketing crap a'la gridcoin, with the exception of maybe burst which at least tried, despite various technical flaws)
<katu>
ah, sia is just contracts too, so the same as rest of the bunch.
<FNinTak>
I've talked to the author about coming around the channel, so he should be in soon
<FNinTak>
Spacemint is a paper that specs out a coin yes, but afaik there are no active plans to launch it
<rhett>
I wonder why not
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<FNinTak>
It's a non-trivial task, doesn't exactly fit in the standard academic plan
<FNinTak>
though I will say their whitepaper is imo the best I've seen for a novel cryptocurrency
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<Taek>
katu: Sia derives consensus from proof of wrok
<Taek>
*work
<Taek>
to the best of my knowledge, there is no proof-of-stake nor proof-of-storage (PoS is ambiguous) system that is widely accepted as having security comprable to bitcoin
<katu>
FNinTak: PoSpace in and itself isnt that hard
<katu>
graph pebbling is unnecesary complication in fact
<katu>
FNinTak: trouble is what to do with it next. you usually get inevitable NaS
<Taek>
maybe we should call it consensus-by-storage.
<Taek>
given that there are useful applications to proving that you have storage capacity outside of forming decentralized consensus
<katu>
and if you want to store useful data, while also giving "mining" rewards for proving you store some data, you get nasty incentives
<Taek>
the biggest problem there in my opinion is that there's no way to distinguish useful data from computationally generated data
<katu>
Taek: why theres not
<katu>
thats task of PoSpace
<Taek>
encrypted useful data is indistinguishable from fully random data
<katu>
simple arlgorithm is simple hard to reverse bilinear mapping
<Taek>
and data generated via H(i || secret key) is also indistinguishable from fully random data
<Taek>
if I am tasked with storing data that I know how to generate, I can cheat the storage and just generate what is needed when asked to build a proof
<katu>
Taek: again, this is solved via multiple algorithms
<katu>
they are not obvious, but its not a hard problem
<Taek>
do you have a link to a paper?
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<katu>
no. but you're familiar how bilinear mapping work?
<katu>
have bilinear mapping function as one way hash. use that in burstcoin instead of their silly hash method, stretch the result into staggers
<Taek>
I am as of looking at the wikipedia page on it. heh
<katu>
in your proof you then include collapsed merkle path to the chunk you found (with winning "difficulty"). it must of course refer previous OP_STORE, which, when encrypted with same bilinear mapping proves you had this chunk stored (after prolonged computation of it)
<Taek>
ok. I don't fully understand. What data does the prover end up storing?
<katu>
wait, i might have a writeup somewhere
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<Taek>
ok, so it's difficult to cheat b/c when storing data, you have to search for E, which is computationally feasible but not cheap
<Taek>
to cheat, you would have to search for E many times, and storing is cheaper than doing so much searching
<Taek>
is what I've gathered
<katu>
yes. you can either store 2^24 Es, or bruteforce *each attempt*. note that this algorithm is not efficient enough for initial stores to perform realistically.
<Taek>
thanks for taking the time to write it up :)
<katu>
real world algorithm would share Es between OP_STOREs with different RIs, thus multiplying the 'stored' factor by more than 2^24
<katu>
(that is, the inverted map would be shared for chunks with different RIs)
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<jcorgan>
Blockchain-Free Cryptocurrencies. A Rational Framework for Truly Decentralised Fast Transactions
<jcorgan>
only recently published but i wonder if there has been any discussion here or elsewhere on it
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<jcorgan>
it's basic concept is to apply cumulative PoW to chains of transactions, and to separate the PoW DAG from the currency transaction DAG
<cjd>
just read the abstract but my first reaction: 1. chained transactions were thought of before blocks but blocks were implemented because of valid reasons 2. those names I don't recognize from the bitcoin world so I'm concerned that possibly they're academics without a lot of knowledge about this specific technology
<jcorgan>
sure, i get that
<jcorgan>
but the paper seems rather well written inspite of that
* nsh
frowns
<cjd>
we've seen some really silly papers before -- specifically I recall one from Microsoft which "described a problem that doesn't exist and then solved it poorly"
<jcorgan>
my first takeaway is that it describes a steady state operation but not how a node would start from zero and get to that point
<jcorgan>
i need to re-read it in detail, but, time
<cjd>
the 2 super annoying problems in my mind are: #1 blockchains must be slow because it takes time before you are sure that the chain can't be rolled back, this is basically true of anything with proof of work because you have to wait for the work to happen.
<cjd>
#2 the cost of moving small amounts of money may be limited but the cost of moving enormous bank-size amounts of money (and being sure that it is not being double-spent) is enormous
<cjd>
say you're moving 10 trillion dollars, it's actually worth it to try to 51% attack bitcoin for that kind of money
<nsh>
2. Works on an open model, empowering individuals.
<nsh>
this is a terrible proposal. i'd love to see it implemented
* nsh
is sold
<nsh>
i'm glad for a system to fail when one signature is able to move 10 trillion dollars
<cjd>
I think SWIFT does this pretty much daily
<cjd>
and Bitcoin is ar superior to SWIFT because you don't need friends of friends who have big credit lines with one another in order to transfer money
<nsh>
i don't think replicating terribly insecure centralised transfers is the best ambition
<jcorgan>
ok, well, hate to post PDFs and run, but first day of grcon16 awaits
<nsh>
enjoy!
<cjd>
if you want to wire a huge amount of money, there are actually liquidity problems at the forex level
<nsh>
there should be
<nsh>
there are flow-theoretical realities that we should recognise and not attempt to obviate
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<cjd>
FEDWIRE is able to move massive amounts of money because it is like bitcoin in that the Federal Reserve simply credits the difference to the appropriate account
<nsh>
(else the turbulent effects are merely externalised)
<cjd>
s/massive/arbitrary/
<cjd>
SWIFT is merely a messaging system, you need to have banks with big enough credit relations that they can pick a route where there is enough liquidity to execute your transfer, similar to lightning network
<cjd>
it's fast but it's a pain
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