sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<gmaxwell>
amiller: what is its security model? Can existing miners prevent a new miner from joining the system?
<amiller>
hi gmaxwell... im still trying to figure out what the assumptions are here
<amiller>
its strange, there are still proof-of-work miners, and the miners themselves don't have to have coins
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<amiller>
there does seem to be an assumption that "a majority of the coins are honest" kind of like tendermint
<phantomcircuit>
gmaxwell, "In such a mature cryptocurrency system, the majority of coins is controlled by honest user"
<phantomcircuit>
hybrid PoS i assume
<amiller>
does seem a form of hybrid pos
<phantomcircuit>
> To
<phantomcircuit>
address this issue, our final strategy is to
<phantomcircuit>
compare the unspent supporting coins in two branches from the block
<phantomcircuit>
where the chains diverge (divergent position)
<phantomcircuit>
.
<phantomcircuit>
indeed hybrid PoS
<phantomcircuit>
yawn
<gmaxwell>
I wish papers came with oracle access to the author. Could save so much time. "I acquire most of the keys for the coins as of block 10. What would happen if, at block 2000, I created a backdated chain starting at 1. Then at block 2002 you join the network for the first time, connect to me first, and recieve my chain (which happens to have much less work in it). From your perspective the non-back
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<gmaxwell>
dated chain looks like a 51% attack. Would you switch to it?"
<gmaxwell>
Or, "say my cabal has a majority hashpower today, can I prevent you from ever becoming a miner tomorrow? If so, what does it cost us to do this, for varrious levels of honest hashrate and denied hashrate?"
<amiller>
the authors have email addresses at least :)
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<adlai>
"For simplicity of our security analysis, we assume that coin metal is ten-karat and perfectly spherical"
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<bsm1175321>
ah, the spherical cow assumption, I know it well.
* bsm1175321
calculates the capacitance of a perfectly spherical cow...
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<bsm1175321>
The definition of "majority" is abundantly clear to everyone. The definition of "malicious" is clear to no one. Therefore "malicious" has no useful meaning. Majority is quantitatively measurable, and can be used in protocols.
<bsm1175321>
Though "majority" should not be used in protocols. Any protocol which does not contain a majority condition/measurement will be more reliable/desirable than any that does. However, we've expanded our reach from network protocols to finance, and I think the ensuing ambiguity is inevitable. But the notion that anyone can define "malicious" as anything better than > 50% of anything is a fantasy.
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<Taek>
I like the term 'Byzantine', meaning 'it'll do anything in it's power to mess you up regarless of incentives'
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<bsm1175321>
Incentives fail. There are externalities. Sometimes, a negative interest rate is better than a worse negative interest rate of other available options.
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<bsm1175321>
The assumption that an actor wants to maximize his coin holdings also fails -- in the case that the actor is holding another better-performing asset, his interest is to minimize his holdings in the worse performing asset.
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<kanzure>
amiller: is there a more general definition anywhere for "nonoutsourceability" even for non-mining? the main requirement seems to be something about "whether someone else could potentially steal something valuable"... right?
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<kanzure>
from a user's perspective, it is hard to get a good understanding of whether you are using software that is participating in unsafe levels of outsourcing
<kanzure>
if it was more obvious, like similar to "oops i just pasted my private key into a public irc channel" then perhaps outsourcing would be more obvious and detectable
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