sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<andytoshi> Taek: why do you think payment channels are inviable? what do i need beyond multisig and locktimeverify (both of which i believe i can do)
<gmaxwell> andytoshi: also, other features could be used but would only have SPV like security... no one seems to whine about the more than a few altcoins that only have spv like security of history period.
<andytoshi> gmaxwell: that's a very good point, though i wish this tradeoff didn't have to be made for everyone at once (i guess sidechains mitigate this)
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<andytoshi> regarding nobody whining about these coins, unless you're referring to "the only actual node is poloniex" security model, the only coins i'm aware of which deliberately have SPV-like security are just too small to be worth forging a chain for
<gmaxwell> andytoshi: no I mean the more than a few thing that can run off utxo snapshots.
<gmaxwell> e.g. go-ethereum in the recommended --fast mode, or any of several others than I can't be bothered to look up the names of right now.
<andytoshi> ah i see, that's cool, i actually did not know any of that was implemented
<andytoshi> (though i should've guessed, ethereum at least has a remarkably active developer community)
<gmaxwell> andytoshi: it's just how it works it has commitments to everything.
<gmaxwell> it's not a "also did" its "the way its done"
<gmaxwell> downside is that it seems almost no thought was given to the efficiency of the commitment scheme... so probably part of the reason the sync is so much slower (in terms of time per transaction) than Bitcoin.
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<Taek> ah glanced over the part where you think timelock is possible. Though it's weird to think about having a timelocked transaction that gets obliterated after all the outputs are spent.
<Taek> I think also worth stating that I find the privacy aspects of MW more interesting than the scalability aspects, the 80GB -> 30GB is certainly big, but doesn't seem like enough to get 7 billion people online
<Taek> you might not have to throw out so many features if you are willing to skip the history-deleting bit
<Taek> hmm
<Taek> on an unrelated note, I found an interesting equation.
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<Taek> The % hashrate you need to get from the hashrate you currently have to enough hashrate to hit 51% is 104-2y, where 'y' is the amount of hashrate you currently have
<Taek> So, a miner with 40% hashrate needs to get (104 - 80) 24% of the hashrate to hit a 51% attack
<Taek> oh it might be 102 - 2y
<Taek> either way, a miner with 40% hashrate has to invest 50% more than they have already invested to rise from 40% to 50%
<Taek> that's a jump that is a lot bigger than I had intuitively assumed
<Taek> A person with 33% hashrate has to *double* their hashrate to get to 51%
<Taek> I was also able to show that if you have a group of miners who always re-invest their profits, and one miner is more able to convert profits to hashrate, that one miner will asymptotically approach 100% hashrate (assuming there is a linear relationship between money invested and hashrate, which is not how the real world works)
<gmaxwell> Taek: you get a majority if you increase your hashrate by a factor of (1/s)-1 where s is your proportion of hashrate.
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<Taek> nifty
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<instagibbs> Taek, fwiw I'm getting less convinced on the history-skipping stuff. But yes CT-OWAS is exciting by itself
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<Luke_Jr> TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin.
<wizkid057> hmm
* Luke_Jr slaps wizkid057 around a bit with a large trout
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* Luke_Jr slaps wizkid057 around a bit with a large trout
<Luke_Jr> TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin!
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<Luke_Jr> TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin!
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<Luke_Jr> TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin.
<wizkid057> no, I can explode them to 30x what they're worth. PM me instead.
<Luke_Jr> TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin.
<Luke_Jr> TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin.
<Luke_Jr> TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin.
<Luke_Jr> TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin.
<Luke_Jr> TOO COOL FOR SCHOOL! I can explode your bit-coins and blow them into 3x what they are worth! 100% safe & vouched by the OPS! Pm me to begin.
<wizkid057> gmaxwell midnightmagic warren petertodd luke-jr phantomcircuit
<Luke_Jr> uuu expart cry baby!!!
<Luke_Jr> ba ba ba
<wizkid057> lol
<Luke_Jr> ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba
<Luke_Jr> ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba
<Luke_Jr> ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba
<Luke_Jr> ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba
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<wizkid057> no more exploding?
<htyutut> ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba
<htyutut> ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba ba ba ba ha ba
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<iwilcox> D'oh.
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<maaku> So I made the surprising (to me) observation that one could have different proof of works for selecting transactions and for the most-work rule
<maaku> You do this by having an "inner" chain that contains transactions, and an "outer" chain that merge mines the inner chain.
<maaku> (This is the soft-fork merge mining scheme.)
<maaku> But you're free to choose different proof of work algorithms for the inner and outer chains.
<maaku> E.g. the inner scheme could be something relatively ASIC resistant, and the outer scheme be sha256.
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<maaku> Whether that's an improvement or not I leave as an exercise..
<bsm117532> How can they be merge-mined if they're different algos? Merge mining implies that a PoW for one can satisfy the PoW for the other...
<maaku> The fact that you could soft-fork in a merge mining scheme was also surprising to me, although it perhaps shouldn't have been (it's basically the same as etotheipi's scheme from 2012)
<maaku> bsm117532: I don't think that's a useful definition of merge mining. In fact it actually implies vulnerability to a specific attack.
<bsm117532> Ok then can you elaborate on your definition? ;-)
<maaku> Merge mining here means the outer block contains a commitment to the inner block history.
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<bsm117532> Hmmm why not merge mine everything then? e.g. put commitments to the history of an altcoin (or multiple alt coins). It would enable cross-chain trading...
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<arubi> I want to see that regex...
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<maaku> bsm1175321: indeed, merge mine all the things
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<maaku> wizkid057: wtf?
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<gmaxwell> maaku: he has some script that is banning the spammer, but it appears his regexp needs work.
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<bsm117532> Anyway, yes it's generally possible. I've been thinking about this for braids. Though the merge mining you describe is essentially an altcoin though, there's no common UTXO set. I'd want to checkpoint the inner braid txns back to the outer blocks. Though, the restrictions of the outer network rules may be onerous... :-/
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<wizkid057> bsm117532: my apologies
<wizkid057> seems I screwed up a modification to my script earlier
<bsm117532> wizkid057: no worries, thanks for taking care of the exploder
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