sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<andytoshi>
fluffypony: i'm curious why the key image is still xH(P)P when you're using the liu-wei-wong signatures rather than the old saberhagen ones
<andytoshi>
it should be sufficient for the key image of P = xG to be I = xH, where H is a fixed NUMS point
<andytoshi>
saves a lot of hashing for the verifier
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<andytoshi>
oh, IIRC the reason for H in the saberhagen scheme was something to do with monero's address handshaking. you couldn't use the identity fn as a hash for this reason. but can you use a second nums generator? i don't know..
<andytoshi>
yeah, sorry p17 of the saberhagen whitepaper shows why my idea doesn't work, it interacts badly with the one-time tx keys
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<e0>
Who invented the original unidirectional micropayment channels? The earlist I can find is hashcoin proposing it in a 2011 bitcoin-talk thread. Did anyone propose it earlier than that?
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<andytoshi>
there was a broken one involving sequence numbers on the Contracts page in 2011
<e0>
sipa: The lightning network paper cites that for micropayment channels. It was added by Mike Hearn Dec 4 2011, but Hashcoin wrote the bitcoin-talk forum post half a year earlier in July 04 2011.
<Eliel>
e0: I think there was some mention of smart contract in Bitcoin whitepaper too, but I forget the details. Might be worth looking at though.
<e0>
or user Mike, I assume it is Mike Hearn but I could be wrong
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<e0>
Eliel: I think Script is post-whitepaper, since the whitepaper pre-dates the implementation and Script was one of the last features added to the implemention. I could be wrong, I'm a little fuzzy on that timeline.
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<Eliel>
hmm yes, the whitepaper doesn't contain anything on smart contracts.
<Eliel>
At least not on a fast scan
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<andytoshi>
there was a script from first release but i doubt it was really poked at until mid-2010 when artforz found the OP_RETURN bug
<pinhead26>
can anyone help me understand: reachable=false for ipv4 in getnetworkinfo?
<lmatteis>
have any of you read about Steem? didn't find mentions in IRC logs. wondering whether it's worth a study or simply another bs coin.
<fluffypony>
lmatteis: I don't think it has any longevity, but it's fun to get paid for posts
<fluffypony>
just cash out straight after :)
<pigeons>
it is bitshares + complexity
<lmatteis>
so it's just like another coin. it's value is driven upwards because people see $$ on posts on their site.
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<lmatteis>
also the paper seems rather non-techie, even though it makes quite extraordinary technical claims: "the consensus algorithm adopted by Steem is similar to the consensus algorithm adopted by companies throughout the world"
<bsm117532>
It's utterly impossible to cash out of steem. It's funny money and a ponzi scheme.
<lmatteis>
really? gosh ok
<bsm117532>
weekly installments paid out over a 2 year timescale. So effectively they just inflate the value by a factor of 100. Money is flowing from speculators to these weekly payouts. Speculators will never be able to cash out, except to other speculators. Hence, Ponzi.
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<e0>
gmaxwell: Is there a public thread where Satoshi invents payment channels?
<gmaxwell>
Mostly private correspondence, though I believe he also mentioned them on BCT. Personally, I wouldn't even load "nakamotoinstitute.org"; it's an unimaginable level of scummyness in my view take the name of someone you've never spoken with for your group.
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<Eliel>
lmatteis: I'm not convinced about steem's long term viability, but I think at least the creator is honest in that he's trying to make a system that could perhaps work. Mostly it's a question of if the community manages to create enough value through the functional part of the system to keep speculators perpetually interested.
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<lmatteis>
but is it technically sounded? i'm more interested in (i) how they're able to reach consensus without PoW, (ii) how they avoid people with lots of "steem coins" to promote their own content several times, (iii) how are the "steem coins" generated?
<Eliel>
lmatteis: there's some kind of a PoW involved in the system, I forget what kind though.
<bsm117532>
Honest people can create Ponzi schemes. In such cases you will usually find a muddy and confusing notion of "value" and where it comes from.
<e0>
gmaxwell: ok, thanks for your help, I'll wade through BCT
<Eliel>
lmatteis: for (ii) they expect the profit motive from owning a stake in steem to end up with people self-policing to make the site attractive.
<Eliel>
umm *content
<Eliel>
lmatteis: for (iii) it's perpetual inflation with 90% given to existing holders and 10% divided according to their votes on comments and posts.
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<waxwing>
i vote not to discuss it here :) (my vote is recorded on the blockchain natch')
<bsm117532>
It appears their consensus protocol is an ad-hoc voting scheme (a la PBFT) where entering the validator set requires computing a PoW. AFAICT it is new, untested, not peer reviewed, and riddled with holes. Their whitepaper contains lots of word salad but no algorithm descriptions or proofs. I'm with waxwing, let's not discuss it further unless someone sees technical merit in it.
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<lmatteis>
i agree. seems like an interesting idea, but lacks technical, clear, explanations to how it works.
<sipa>
ha, steemit is not the same as slockit
<sipa>
^- just realized that
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