sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<FNinTak>
@kanzure Yes, along with many others
<kanzure>
hm okay. maybe something can be done to get a list of research questions then.
<FNinTak>
not sure how comprehensive that is though
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<FNinTak>
Also, an interesting concept came up today: miners running relay networks to pre-broadcast
<FNinTak>
transactions they have included in the block they are working on
<FNinTak>
This would allow for CMPCT blocks to still be used; subscribing to a PrefilledTransaction feed
<gmaxwell>
sounds like weakblocks, except in weakblocks access to publish in that feed is that feed is arbritrated by hashpower and they can publish transactions they intend to include but haven't included yet.
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<FNinTak>
In that case, the feed data wouldn't help with compact block usage then?
<FNinTak>
though in the relay case there is no guarantee of the integrity of the pre-broadcast data
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<sipa>
in weak blocks, miners broadcast blocks that almost satisfy the proof of work... let's say 1/10th of the required difficulty
<sipa>
nodes on the network remember the last few weak blocks that they have seen
<sipa>
and the transactions in those become available to compact block relay
<gmaxwell>
not just "in those" but in an additional commitment which is only used for the weak block.
<gmaxwell>
so you can advertise that you'd like to include a transaction but only actually try to include it once you believe it has been well propagated.
<sipa>
then you can go a step further, and fully validate weak blocks ahead of time, and cache their validation result... if a later full block is found identical to a previously received weak block, nothing needs to be relayed at all
<sipa>
apart from coinbase and nonce
<gmaxwell>
which is much more efficient than BIP152 compact blocks.
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<FNinTak>
For any given block only 1 weak version needs to be broadcast though, correct?
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<sipa>
well if the weak block difficulty is 1/10th of the full block difficulty, you'll see on average 10 of them
<gmaxwell>
no weak version /needs/ to be broadcast.
<sipa>
but they can reuse each other's transactions of course for relay
<FNinTak>
What is the benefit of the following 9? wrt. improving compact block caching
<sipa>
increasing the chance
<gmaxwell>
they continue to update the set of includable transactions, since they'd be sent differentially to prior blocks, (e.g. BIP152 or more efficient) they don't cost much of anything themselves.
<sipa>
if the weak block difficulty was only 1/2 of the full block difficulty, there would be a high chance that no weak block at all would have been found
<sipa>
in between two full blocks
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<FNinTak>
Mmm, ok i agree; can also use BIP152-like broadcast for the weak blocks themselves
<gmaxwell>
in any case considerations for them is different because they're not at all latency critical. meaning their transmission can heavily optimize for bandwidth efficiency.
<gmaxwell>
sipa: amusingly "weak blocks" doesn't need anything weak at all.
<gmaxwell>
Imagine instead, whenever you mine you include a list of transactions you'd like the network to include 3 blocks from now. The transactions you do include are the ones from the commitment from the block three ago.
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<gmaxwell>
and you don't require that precommitment data to arrive with a block, instead it can arrive later.
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<gmaxwell>
and it doesn't have to be validated... it just gives access to the communication channel to achieve reliable broadcast of transactions.
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<FNinTak>
If that were required it would allow for more censorship by miners
<FNinTak>
though miners exhibit similar behavior in the wild already so that's unlikely
<Taek>
Miners already have the final say in what gets onto the blockchain. Weak blocks give more opportunity for non-rogue miners to broadcast potential transactions
<FNinTak>
Fair; the xiph write-up makes this clearer
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<FNinTak>
Also @maaku in that scheme is proof still done over blocks on inner chain or individual transactions?
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<gmaxwell>
For those who don't know, I described weakblocks in extensive detail to PeterR in a private email conversation that he was kind enough to post to bitcoin-dev
<gmaxwell>
he had a real hard time understand the idea, so I explained it several times
<gmaxwell>
Then he had the nerve to write an academic paper on the subject renaming it, and dishonestly misattributing it.
<gmaxwell>
Ashame: the illustrations in his paper were quite well done.-- too bad so much talent is wasted on a person who is completely devoid of integrity.
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<gmaxwell>
Figured that would work.
<gmaxwell>
Peter_R_: You're not welcome here. You are a dispiciable and dishonest person.
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<gmaxwell>
I'm tired of being chased out of a channel I created by PeterR and his toadies and socks.
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<tunafizz>
damnit. did a paper on bitcoin last year, didn't know I could just have you guys write it for me...
<tunafizz>
would have saved me hours of effort and taking the time to learn the technicals of btc
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<sipa>
tunafizz: but then you wouldn't have learned as much :)
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<bsm1175321>
I'm very dismayed that gmaxwell is so bitter. I spoke with Peter_R and he expressed nothing but respect for gmaxwell. Both Peter_R and I are here largely because gmaxwell intellegently engaged us and patiently answered questions when we first showed up in -wizards. I don't want to have to pick sides in someone else's fight.
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<brg444>
I had to log in to address this previous comment ^^
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<brg444>
that you would even suggest Peter R is acting in good faith and with genuine intentions shows you are unfortunately out of touch with his entire shenanigans throughout the last few years
<brg444>
him singing the praise of Greg isn't something worth giving him credit for when he spent the better part of the last year making spiteful back handed comments on him
<kanzure>
and why would it matter whether someone praises gmaxwell? that's completely irrelevant.
<pigeons>
let's take this somewhere else so i can tell bsm1175321 how full of crap that is. Its much more than that email exchange. Its pathological and insidious and persistent and dark and gross.
<brg444>
Peter has rallied a great amount of malicious individuals and fueled constant character assassination toward various contributors to the ecosystem.
<brg444>
Sorry I know this is off-topic so I'll leave it at that... but let's not be so easily deceived by somehow who's made a habit out of manipulating people
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<bsm1175321>
I really don't want to be involved. I'm an editor for his journal, and I feel I can do good that way, independent of this drama.
<kanzure>
perhaps instead of highlighting what you perceive to be bitterness, you should consider the downsides to working with those who are academically dishonest (why would you want to work for "his" journal under those circumstances? wat?)
<Taek>
easy guys
<kanzure>
s/"his" journal/"his journal"/ i guess
<bsm1175321>
I honestly haven't tried to evaluate it, and don't have an opinion. The weak blocks/xthin is in my opinion premature optimization. It's valuable in the short term but doesn't solve the fundamental problem: a chain is a single-writer model, and there are multiple writers. (Hence my work on braids)
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<Taek>
I'm not sure what work is currently being done on weak blocks for Bitcoin, but from a theoretical perspective weak blocks are a lot less far out than braids. They are definitely lower hanging fruit, and provide some tangible advantages
<bsm1175321>
I agree Taek. I'm not opposed to other people working on them, but have chosen to put my efforts elsewhere... ;-)
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<bsm1175321>
Isn't this the same as "compact block relay" which is going in to core?
<bsm1175321>
Even with both compact blocks and weak blocks, there will still be orphans.
<bsm1175321>
And selfish mining will still work.
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<bsm1175321>
FWIW, The Subchains paper has not been submitted to Ledger. (I just checked) If it were, I would do my best in the role of editor to ensure that proper attribution was made.
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<midnightmagic>
bsm1175321: In all the time I've watched, read, and seen (hand-drawn comics included) there has never been any respect whatsoever, almost right from the beginning, from him. He is showing you a facet of his character, and showing everyone else something else entirely. Seriously. The guy drew a hand-drawn un-funny animation of "someone" in core getting squished to death. With blood. By big
<midnightmagic>
blocks. He makes statements which are cruel, tolerates and thereby encourages criminal behaviour on the part of sycophants who follow him around, and makes lopsided and false comments about the ability, intention, and morals of people who disagree with him. Consider the possibility that it is likely he just doesn't want to lose what support he has in the form of folks like yourself by
<midnightmagic>
giving you reasons to doubt his character. But woe be unto ye if you get on his bad side. Don't say nobody warned you.
<sipa>
bsm1175321: compact blocks is a change purely between two individual peers on the network, exploiting the fact that the receiver of a block already knows most of the transactions anyway
<sipa>
bsm1175321: weak blocks is a change where miners announce partial PoW solutions with attached data to make the network know and validate ahead of time what they are working on
<sipa>
they interact insofar that weak blocks can use compact block protocol to be relayed as well... but it goes much further
<sipa>
as compact blocks is about individual transactions; with weak blocks often a full block can be completely validated by the network ahead of time
<bsm1175321>
sipa: It seems rather unlikely that between a weak block and a regular block, no new transactions appear, no?
<sipa>
bsm1175321: miners have no incentive to include new transactions that they don't know the network hasn't already validated
<sipa>
unless they are doing a selfish mining attack of course, which they always can
<sipa>
the idea behind weak blocks is that finding a weak block grants you a right to tell the network what you're working on, but also what you soon will be working on
<sipa>
other miners have an incentive to switch to the block you've announced to be working on as well
<sipa>
and indeed, it does not and cannot prevents orphans... but under non-adverserial circumstances it can make block propagation independent from the block size
<bsm1175321>
Interesting. Has that been the plan all along?
<sipa>
the effect from just latency due to geographical distribution can't be prevented and will always be a centralization pressure
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<sipa>
but for example FIBRE relays blocks now often within 10ms of what the speed of light can do
<bsm1175321>
sipa: Leave that to me...with braids.
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<sipa>
bsm1175321: i am not convinced that braids can solve this, especially when there are double spends in the network
<sipa>
bsm1175321: but i encourage research about it!
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<bsm1175321>
sipa: That's a good point. Adversarial double-spends can simulate the effect of orphans, I'm aware of this.
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<bsm1175321>
I'm working on an alternative mechanism to resolve double-spends as a consequence.
<sipa>
in any case, i don't think we will have one magic bullet solution for this
<bsm1175321>
e.g. an adversarial miner could broadcast a spend to all other miners, and mine a double-spend himself, to force other miners to fork.
<sipa>
have you talked with aviv zohar?
<bsm1175321>
Not recently, I think he was at the HK Scaling Bitcoin though.
<sipa>
he was not
<bsm1175321>
Then no...why?
<sipa>
his research group has been working on graph-based block chain ideas for a few years now
<sipa>
a student of his presented in HK, i believe
<bsm1175321>
It was Yonatan at scaling...
<sipa>
right
<bsm1175321>
He disappeared shortly after our talks, I only talked to him breifly :-/
<sipa>
i think you should try to collaborate with them
<bsm1175321>
Perhaps, have they made any progress since their "Inclusive" paper?
<sipa>
i've talked to aviv at financial cryptography in february
<sipa>
i don't know the details, but i'm sure they are working on more than what was presented
<bsm1175321>
Basically I found a "fastest possible block time" with my cohorts algorithm. (which is also new since I talked with you at Scaling)
<bsm1175321>
I'm hoping to have an alternative double-spend algorithm, as well as a "merging" algorithm by Milan...
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<midnightmagic>
For what it's worth, I've already banned him and explicitly told him, like six times now, they he's not welcome here; so, by logging in from another host, he's ban-evading. (Perhaps unwittingly, but he at least knows that I kickbanned him already.)
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