sipa changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<JackH>
mr kanzure, our little library of alexandria, do you by any chance have the copy of thunder.network/
<JackH>
it seems like whomever did it, took it down
<kanzure>
have you checked the actual library of alexandria yet?
<kanzure>
do you mean something other than the webpage..?
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<JackH>
nope, thx :)
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<JackH>
see, you are the librarian/library
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<TD-Linux>
kanzure, there is an open source toolchain for Lattice FPGAs that I've used and it works quite well
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<tulip>
> thats a vague recollection. Both are pretty shockingly slow.
<tulip>
ARMv7 Processor rev 5 (v7l)
<tulip>
Doing 256 bit verify ecdsa's for 10s: 1264 256 bit ECDSA verify in 9.99s
<gmaxwell>
hurrah!
<gmaxwell>
so my recollection was 100/s vs 400/s.
<gmaxwell>
(without that pullreq that I mentioned)
<tulip>
that's openssl speed ecdsa, just building libsecp256k1
<tulip>
(slowly)
<gmaxwell>
yea, the hurrah is just eme saying that its consistent with my recollection of 100.
<gmaxwell>
(I didn't say the number earlier, just shockingly slow, because it's so slow it doesn't sound right)
<gmaxwell>
tulip: for some of my perspective; my overpowered desktop in my office does nearly a half million ecdsa verifies per second with libsecp256k1.
<tulip>
32bit x86 would fare pretty badly as well wouldn't it?
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<sipa>
the vague numbers i remember from earlier libsecp25k1 is x86_64->{openssl->600us, libsecp->100us} i386->{openssl->1200us, libsecp->400us}
<gmaxwell>
tulip: no, not as badly as arm... also depends on what microarchiture you're talking about.
<gmaxwell>
arm64 was not hugely fast, eithre. performance was like x86_64 on atom cores without asm.
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<tulip>
ecdsa_verify: min 3456us / avg 3456us / max 3457us --with-asm=no
<gmaxwell>
that would suggest that my vaguely recalled 400 number was with ASM.
<gmaxwell>
also is it with endomorphism?
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<tulip>
that's just with the default configure, nothing else changed. the asm branch is very old so it's likely there's other changes between the benchmarks more than just the assembly.
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<tulip>
doesn't have GMP though.
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<gmaxwell>
I don't think there should be any speed differences between then and now; but --enable-endomorphism with with GMP are fairly big speedups.
<gmaxwell>
recent work has been API and verification, not optimizations.
<gmaxwell>
e.g. endomorphism is 20% right off the top, gmp might be 10%, which suggests to me my 400 figure was probably gmp+endomorphism but not asm.
<kanzure>
"Project IceStorm aims at documenting the bitstream format of Lattice iCE40 FPGAs and providing simple tools for analyzing and creating bitstream files. At the moment the focus of the project is on the HX1K-TQ144 and HX8K-CT256 devices, but most of the information is device-independent."
<kanzure>
"We have enough bits mapped that we can create a functional Verilog model for almost all bitstreams generated by Lattice iCEcube2 for the iCE40 HX1K-TQ144 and the iCE40 HX8K-CT256."
<TD-Linux>
kanzure, yes, it provides the low level tools to generate bitstreams from a netlist and vice versa
<TD-Linux>
(a placed/routed netlist)
<TD-Linux>
you use yosys to go verilog -> netlist, arachne-pnr for place and route
<kanzure>
wasn't this a giant missing piece of the puzzle and everyone had to use xilinx for the longest time
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<TD-Linux>
yes it was. and still is - the lattice chips are too small for some things
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<kanzure>
oh how small are these?
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<TD-Linux>
largest one is 8k LUTs / 64k dram. just large enough for a very small CPU, for example.
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<tulip>
TD-Linux: "iCE40, so low power it is cold as iCE" oh no.
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<amiller>
i dunno man, try asking someone what an expander graph *looks like*, you don't get much of an answer
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<gmaxwell>
amiller: any low density parity check code should be one.
<gmaxwell>
amiller: you need to look to the coding theory people instead of the computational theory people if you want concrete examples of anything. :P
<gmaxwell>
(and ones that have a linear number of edges, same criteria used for PCP encodings)
<kanzure>
.title
<yoleaux>
Sorry...
<kanzure>
"Sipser: expanding codes"
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<kanzure>
"My main development project these days is Aboriginal Linux, which aims to replace cross compiling with native compiling under an emulator (qemu)." (rob landley stuff)
<katu>
bliljerk101: looks a lot like Torpath: the real life
<bliljerk101>
katu is "Torpath: the real life" a technology? if so, can you link me to something (google posed no distinguishable results). if not, are you saying the smart contract chain looks like a torpath? because i thought so, too
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<katu>
just look at the torpath paper. note that there are subtle differences.
<katu>
for example, in torpath, the route is determined via NUMS, to avoid various framing attacks. not by the sender (ie your approach is similiar to that of tor).
<katu>
you might want to consider NUMS, because the sender might be a plant in sting operation. paradoxically the privacy you provided between hops, it obscures sender.
<katu>
protecting the FBI agent from being discovered as getting involved in willing entrapment
<bliljerk101>
it shouldn't matter if the sender is under cover as he/she would not know the recipient's real destination. maybe i should clarify how to do this
<bliljerk101>
i will read torpath paper. i don't think i'll be able to today
<katu>
bliljerk101: the point of such a sting would be to bust selected relays.
<katu>
your routiing solves problems regarding scamming, but introduces other vectors of attack with different incentives
<katu>
generally in the "market competition" category, where the loss of bonds are treated as investment to destroy competition
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<katu>
bliljerk101: btw, something closest to the system you devised already exists in the real life, even with bonds and all
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<katu>
google up krebs ranting about money and reshipping mules for russian online fraud gangs :)
<bliljerk101>
katu the recipient and sender could both create routes which would eliminate this i think.
<katu>
bliljerk101: the select-a-route-and-bust-them? i'm skeptical. generally sender and recipient would be indeed same adversary.
<katu>
bliljerk101: my reasoning is that, if I were LEA, and such network would present itself as an open mule market (where anyone can hire mules)
<katu>
i'd aim to destroy that market first
<katu>
they key difference is that feds can't do this with Tor, because of onion encryption. but you can't onion encrypt packages. you send it to someone, who is willing to reship it, and you bust em when they're about to do so.
<bliljerk101>
i have to think about all of this at another time. i'm going to save your suggestions as well and review tomorrow or next day. i'm running out of time today, but your feedback is appreciated. if you have anything else to add, i'd appreciate if you could post on forum and i'll definitely respond.
<katu>
bliljerk101: someone else will i'm sure :) generally i'd welcome if you'd elaborate on practical setup how this would be implemented
<katu>
ie how such a mule market would operate in realistic terms
<katu>
(until then, my remarks are largely speculative)
<gmaxwell>
katu: it's usually preferable to use an attack model other than 'the feds', for one, it's a needlessly weak attack model since they may need to appear to abide by the rule of law while a worst case attacker would not; it's also a needlessly politicized attack model, because many people believe the actions of law enforcement are often virtuious and that they do usually abide by the law. Alternati
<gmaxwell>
vely, specifying a state attacker can also be needlessly over powered: if your goverment is the only party that can attack you, for many people thats good enough (and hard to stop, regardless). I usually invoke hypothetical ninjas as the attacker, or otherwise, failing that a foreign state power.
<katu>
gmaxwell: good point
<gmaxwell>
Finally, for those who might read a conversaion and not really understand how hypothetical thinking works, it makes it sound like people here are scheming in varrious ways.. and thats not the case... can make some people uncomfortable.
<gmaxwell>
:)
<katu>
let's rephrase this in terms of market competition hiring ninjas to bust relays with valuable contraband :)
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<gmaxwell>
yea in any case, the onion encryiton in tor protects the payload, not routing. and if the relays log, then they can break the security.
<katu>
on that note, the network might also want to avoid to be implicitly connected with anything (realistically) questionable. for example relays would actually check the packages. in that case it would turn into sort of sneakernet, like grey markets in oppressive state regimes.
<gmaxwell>
As far as disrupting this, all it takes is one idiot shipping something forbidden and it creates criminal charges against the participants; pretty vulnerable to byzantine attack.
<katu>
where people sought to protect themselves from immoral state actors
<gmaxwell>
the zero hop version if this is fine, but only works in a strong semi-honest enviroment.. e.g. you send someone the packing label, and they print it without storing it and never look at it.
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<waxwing>
tamper resistant seals and a legitimate use for the network might be enough deniability for a node/peer?
<katu>
waxwing: hmm, interesting. regular reshipping services indeed use similiar argument when abused for online fraud.
<katu>
but it's telling most of them started requiring KYC forms after few incidents, so i presume this argument does not hold - they get slapped "if you claim you're legit, make sure your previous hop is accountable as well"
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<waxwing>
yeah i can't see it. although it's a fun idea. i heard it discussed before as 'bitdrop'.
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