wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<penjenayah>
hello
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<nsh>
in general, multiple provers are more powerful
<nsh>
i tried to think about how multiple provers might be used to make a zk-snark-based blockchain more efficient
<nsh>
but not very hard
<nsh>
i think the answer i got was: salmon
<nsh>
so i probably forgot to carry a one at some point in the calculations
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<amiller>
there are so many interesitng things in this new memory-hard pow paper
<amiller>
there's a part on "Algorithm Binding" that basically tries to prevent you from finding a solution and grinding it to get solutions with different hashes
<amiller>
the way they pull that off is clever, but i don't understand it well yet
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<maaku>
jgarzik: have you looked at the risc-v isa? is there a reason you prefer moxie?
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<bsm1175321>
So memory-hard POW seems to be a loser to me. There are a lot of CPUs and GPUs in this world that could be suddenly reallocated to attack a chain. Satoshi's notion of CPU-only mining fails for the same reason. Big clusters exist... and a virus could suddenly dump a lot of GPU power on a chain.
<bsm1175321>
ASICS, for better or worse, can't be used for any other purpose, and there exists no other hardware that could be suddenly reallocated to attack bitcoin.
<justanotheruser>
bsm1175321: have you read asic-faq.pdf?
<bsm1175321>
Not yet...but it looks like I wholeheartedly agree.
<bsm1175321>
His (4.4): Memory hardness is undesirable.
<gmaxwell>
bsm1175321: dunno if that really is a great argument. Yes those things are true and risks, but they have to be considered _relative_ to the alternative. It's not clear to me that botnets are worse than industrial mining. The costs you are thinking about are one time and are spread across operation. Many miners today consider their hardware 'free' (already paid for).
<gmaxwell>
A greater argument, is to look at the effect in practice, e.g. ethereum, new as it is, has serious mining centeralization problems which exist completely independantly of any asic implementation of their design.
<bsm1175321>
Let's put it another way: I think widely dispersed ASICs, at the network edges is the most possible secure mining situation.
<bsm1175321>
e.g. mine transactions on submission, merge-mine them to get blocks.
<bsm1175321>
Ethereum will see farms of GPUs (which already existed anyway for scrypt). But a farm of GPUs can be reallocated to a different algorithm and a different chain. The existence and use of GPU farms is a serious problem for centralization, I'd argue it's worse than ASIC centralization since it can be reallocated.
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<jgarzik>
maaku, moxie simulator is very small and easy to audit + intentionally written to align well with gcc/clang internal compiler primitives
<maaku>
jgarzik: also true of risc-v ;)
<jgarzik>
maaku, in hindsight, the moxie arch maintainer hangs out on freenode and we can ask for stuff :)
* jgarzik
&
<gmaxwell>
maaku: that would be atgreeen.
<gmaxwell>
Might want to make up a comparison table.
<maaku>
jgarzik: I'm just concerned about standardizing on something that hasn't seen the rigerous deployment testing, and doesn't have a vibrant community behind it
<maaku>
gmaxwell: yeah I'm in the process of doing that
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<maaku>
it wlil be biased though, because on the metrics I care about RISC-V seems to have a clear advantage, so I was inquiring to see what other people cared about here...
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<kanzure>
maaku: i would imagine at some point that we are going to throw lots of different architectures against snarks benchmarks
<kanzure>
i don't even remember the conventional cpu performance benchmark test suite names... but i think they still exist.
<kanzure>
(rather, this would be for picking benchmarks for snark proofs, at least to the extent that we cull irrelevant benchmarks)
<gmaxwell>
maaku: where can I find a turn key toolchain and simulator for riscv? It was pretty darn easy to get moxie going.
<jgarzik>
fg
<jgarzik>
maaku, the core of moxie is basically directly integrated into the various GNU toolchains - the simulator is the sim GDB uses etc. toolchain convenience level is very high.
<jgarzik>
and we can malleate moxie to do what we need
<maaku>
gmaxwell: it's not as clear to review as the moxie switch statement though, so my intention was to spend an afternoon/weekend refactoring and simply to exhaustive testing to validate
<jgarzik>
maaku, initial reaction - overly modularized and flexible to the nth degree
<maaku>
jgarzik: that's a minus?
<jgarzik>
maaku, took me just a couple lines to patch in a crypto instruction to moxie in a local branch
<maaku>
oh the simulator, yeah agreed
<jgarzik>
I do think projects can be too-flexible and over-engineered to the point where there is lots of effort expended to accomplish simple tasks.
* jgarzik
is in the "simple is beautiful" club :)
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<maaku>
but in terms of things to fix, that one's pretty small -- since the ISA is stable we just write a separate, simple interpreter for consensus code
<maaku>
and do a one-time exhaustive test against the reference implementation
<jgarzik>
hmm that translates to "write a clean one from scratch" which is where we are with Moxie
<maaku>
my point is more that they have done lots of work / learning from industry on the risc-v side to optimize the isa for circuit implementation and compiler targetability
<maaku>
the developers of risc-v being the inventors of RISC/MIPS
<kanzure>
maaku: you're trying to emphasize existing developer adoption and knowledge of risc stuff?
<maaku>
"knowledge of" no, "iterated design" yes -- risc for example is specifically architected to minimize circuit size for a minimal implementation (it outcompetes industry on this)
<maaku>
which as noted above, might be useful for snark efficiency
<maaku>
and definately would be useful for efficient fpga implemenations
<kanzure>
what was the latest verdict on the zk-snark cpu approach versus zk-snark asic approach?
<maaku>
kanzure: application specific -- do you want to regenerate the proving keys for each application is the question
<kanzure>
i thought we didn't want any keys at all in the setup?
<kanzure>
see pm (briefly)
<maaku>
jgarzik: and also, active developer community exists, e.g. with annual conferences, research programs at university, hobbyist communities getting chips fabed, etc.
<maaku>
jgarzik: one thing I worry about is adopting an ISA that we end up being the sole users of
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<jgarzik>
maaku, We're iterating largely on the software side. I think FPGA or silicon would be cool but not so high value because that increases the difficulty to observe the sandbox. A field solution is gonna be a bit java-VM-esque in that it mixes low level (RISC instructions) with very high level (crypto instructions, jumps to magic addresses where crypto functions are implemented)
<jgarzik>
maaku, so of all that you listed, I'd probably weigh "active developer community" the highest
<jgarzik>
maaku, but weight against the ability to do something interesting and radical in a few lines of easy to audit code
<gmaxwell>
FWIW, RISC V apparently has a specced way to add accelerators. I've not looked into it. (presumably the same thing could be specced for moxie)
<maaku>
jgarzik: well I've been more favoring lower level opcodes than "hash256" or "checksig"
<jgarzik>
maaku, moxiebox takes two routes: (1) CRYPTO instruction with a sub-instruction implementing familiar SHAx_TRANSFORM operation, and (2) high level magic runtime calls that are implemented natively
<jgarzik>
I've pushed infrastructure for #2 to public repo, currently testing the rest
<kanzure>
would be interesting to demonstrate risc-v developer/user community interest before pulling trigger somehow- if we have to shoulder all of that work and maintenance then might as well stick to simple reviewable stuff if nobody else except bitcoiners are going to bother
<jgarzik>
maaku, Thus, I agree that opcodes should implement low level discrete operations, a la CISC today
<jgarzik>
#1 gets proposed as addition to moxie architecture
<jgarzik>
#2 is just a runtime convention
<gmaxwell>
maaku: by lower level you mean sha256 instead of hash256 or? ... if you go any lower than sha256 you immediate add a couple kilobytes of bytecode for just a hash function, and take a 100 fold performance loss.
<gmaxwell>
(well I suppose you can expose the raw compression function as a middle step with only a moderate performance loss, but surely no lower)
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<kanzure>
someone around here should infiltrate libsnark team
<kanzure>
heck, i should do this
<kanzure>
s/infiltrate/contribute to/
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<gmaxwell>
in any case, your snark comparison is straight forward; you port your VM to the circuit compiler from C that amiller linked to earlier. And figure out how big the circuit is.. then multiply it by the compiled size for that VM on some benchmark code.
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<maaku>
gmaxwell: i mean single run of the full sha256 compression round
<nsh>
--
<nsh>
<amiller> there are so many interesitng things in this new memory-hard pow paper
<nsh>
<amiller> there's a part on "Algorithm Binding" that basically tries to prevent you from finding a solution and grinding it to get solutions with different hashes
<nsh>
-- which paper?
<maaku>
an opcode that takes a 512 bit block (memory pointer) and 256 bit midstate (registers) and runs a round of sha256
<maaku>
likewise instead of checksig, have EC point multiply, add, square, etc.
<tromp__>
nsh: eprint.iacr.org/2015/946
<jgarzik>
maaku, yes -- that is precisely what my CRYPTO/SHA256_TRANSFORM mod to moxiebox does
<jgarzik>
doesn't perform any setup, just operates on a block
<nsh>
ty
<gmaxwell>
maaku: trying to construct a verify out of multiply/add/square is a guarenteed huge slowdown. FWIW.
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<maaku>
gmaxwell: did you miss the etc.?
<maaku>
there should be accelerators for all the basic operations.
<maaku>
there shouldn't be a monolithic "checksig" opcode
* nsh
takes edict notes
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<gmaxwell>
maaku: the basic operator to get a fast verify is fairly specific to a verify though.
<Eliel>
couldn't you structure the script format so that new scripts can re-use parts of older ones without having to actually include the older ones? That way you could have a script language without any complex predefined OPs and implementations can choose to accelerate specific pure subfunctions of it with native code.
<Eliel>
kind of like how the urbit whitepaper suggested implementing subtraction despite the base bytecode only supporting addition.
<jgarzik>
I've also been thinking about how to ship deterministic code around the Internet...
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<nsh>
indirectly blockchain relevant: http://arxiv.org/pdf/1203.6502.pdf [QUANTIFYING CAUSAL INFLUENCES: channel analysis in DAGs for a measure of causal strength]
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