wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bramc>
Now done typing my post on wallet transaction fees. I've attempted to incorporate all the reasonable feedback and mention or rebut everything which was a good point. Next is posting it to Medium and getting it formatted and such. It's over 2000 words.
<morcos>
bramc: argh, i guess thats what i get for not paying attention to -wizards. ok well i look forward to reading it on Medium
<bramc>
morcos, It's mostly the same stuff as was covered in my -scaling talk, expanded on a bit
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] +1
<tromp__>
fluffypony: how does the tx size compare with CT (~2.5KB) ?
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] tromp_ haven't worked out all the complexities, but should be comparable - can do referencing to commitments / keys in the previous transactions rather than actually include them, and use the (very nice) boromean compression for range proofs
<bsm1175321>
good ideas...
<bsm1175321>
How do we get these things into bitcoin? ;-)
<kanzure>
testnet and sidechains, usually
<bsm1175321>
Well of course, I'm just afraid all the cool features in sidechains will stagnate there, because AFAIK there is no schedule to bring them on board to bitcoin.
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<waxwing>
fluffypony: i guess 123456G gets a pass on NUMS :) ... is it much harder in ed25519 than secp256k1 i wonder?
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<MRL-Relay>
[shen] waxwing 1/8 of hashes are multiples of the basepoint in the curve group, so iirc I just tried like H(12G), H(123G), H(1234G), .., H(123456G)
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<waxwing>
shen: makes sense.
<Taek>
gmaxwell: if you enable miners to incentivize extending their blocks (via some scheme of fee-forwarding), you also enable them to incentivize extending reorgs
<Taek>
a miner attempting a large enough double spend might be perfectly content offering XXXbtc for extending a specific block
<Taek>
I guess this could be done out-of-band anyway, but fee forwarding formalizes the process
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<OxADADA>
Taek: all that info should go right into your knosys project
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<akrmn>
(07:16:44 PM) gmaxwell: perhaps some people in all their eager and zeal forget that bitcoin is not secure from a cryptographic perspective; and in spite of decades of work no real progress has been made on a cryptographically secure decenteralized consensus system. ... there is always going to be a very strong economic component to bitcoin's security. <- Any further reading on this? I don't quite understand what he means.
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<Taek>
akrmn: as far as most researchers understand, you're never going to be able to get a secure form of decentralized consensus without involving some form of economic sacrifice
<Taek>
this isn't something that has been formally proven, but it would be very surprising if it didn't end up being the case
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<Taek>
proof-of-work is essentially economic sacrifice. Bitcoin's security comes from assuming that, under a certain incentive model, no single party will be able to make more economic sacrifice than all other parties combined
<akrmn>
Taek: ok.. By secure, you mean authenticated with cryptography or what?
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<Taek>
In the case of Bitcoin, it means not being able to break the consensus rules, and not being able to spend the same money twice
<akrmn>
o ok
<bsm1175321>
Perhaps he means that Bitcoin's consensus is only asymptotic, not convergent.
<akrmn>
so you mean we can't do bitcoin without using up energy (like proof of stake tries to do)?
<Taek>
(caveat, economic sacrifice is measured in the form of POW. Some people can do more POW with less sacrifice, and that's a shortcoming of the POW system)
<kanzure>
"economic sacrifice" should instead read as "physical sacrifice"
<kanzure>
e.g. universal scarcity of negentropy
<bsm1175321>
akrmn: I'd say yes.
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<akrmn>
interesting
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<gmaxwell>
Taek: you can already incentivize extending reorgs, without any fee forwardings.
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<gmaxwell>
Taek: just using a cascade of nlocked txn.
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<yoleaux>
Decentralized Reddit using a DHT to store content and a blockchain to rank it | Hacker News
<kanzure>
welp at least the obvious was pointed out (don't need a blockchain for that, yo) but has some interesting citations to other possibly-ok work in the comments
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