wumpus changed the topic of #bitcoin-wizards to: This channel is is for discussing theoretical ideas with regard to cryptocurrencies, not about short-term Bitcoin development | http://bitcoin.ninja/ | This channel is logged. | For logs and more information, visit http://bitcoin.ninja
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<bramc> Variable length data structures suck
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<bsm117532> Don't worry, the Doctor will soon arrive to transport you to 1980, when we all used fixed length database records, and electronic money was recently introduced under the moniker "ATM".
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<bsm117532> Merkle set woes, I take it?
<kanzure> probably memory allocation problems
<bsm117532> Reasons to prototype in python... :-/
<kanzure> well, he was
<kanzure> so i'll change my guess to diff algorithm problems
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<bramc> bsm117532, Yes I'm haggling with merkle set stuff
<bramc> kanzure, I'm doing my own manual memory management to make there be good memory efficiency and strong memory adjacency affinity
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<bsm117532> I feel your pain brother.
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<bramc> A leaf node has: A secure hash. An intermediate node has: The number of shared bits below the parent, those bits, references to where left and right are stored, and a secure hash
<bramc> Obviously these are different lengths. The real problems come in when a block becomes full, and you can't just change a leaf into an intermediate node because it doesn't have enough room
<bramc> My inclination for basic memory management is to sweep: append to the used area of a block at the end, when it becomes full compact it back down. That doesn't fix the overflow problem though.
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<bramc> One thing you can and should do on overflow is split the current block in half. That works fine except when the current block only has one input and can't be split any more
<domyhomework> Is anyone in here bored enough to explain to me how or why the Bitcoin Foundation failed for a Masters study?
<bramc> I don't know what a masters study is, but the bitcoin foundation is a, ahem, sketchy organization which most people want nothing to do with.
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<bramc> It doesn't have much left in the way of operations
<phantomcircuit> domyhomework, do your own homework
<domyhomework> phantomcircuit: In a way I am as there's little information other than media bites and morsels from reddit/foundation forum. I'm hoping that the community will help me piece together whether or not they actually had a Strategy. I don't believe they were corrupt. However there's little information to go on.
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<phantomcircuit> domyhomework, i'll give you only one piece of info, checkout the founding members
<domyhomework> So a primary factor was pressure from external institutional influences?
<phantomcircuit> domyhomework, sigh
<phantomcircuit> no they were criminals!
<phantomcircuit> duh
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<domyhomework> So you're saying that the Bitcoin Foundation is inherently criminal?
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<phantomcircuit> oy
<phantomcircuit> domyhomework, do your own homework
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<ryan-c> I'm not sure whether I am more amused that someone sent some bitcoin to addresses created by using block hashes as private keys or that someone had a bot set up to sweep the outputs.
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<lmatteis> can anyone point me to research around achieving consensus on tokens that are meant to have economical value. for instance, not a currency but still needs decentralized consensus.
<lmatteis> sorry, *meant to NOT have economical value
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<CodeShark> Luke-Jr: quantum computers only have a quadratic improvement over classical computers in computing hash preimages
<CodeShark> so if you only know the HASH160 of a public key you still have about 80 bits of security
<Luke-Jr> CodeShark: in this case, they know the full public key for keys 1..N, but not N+1
<CodeShark> but if you know the public key you can reverse the elliptic curve multiplication in probabilistic polynomial time
<Luke-Jr> I don't think they can break N+1, right?
<CodeShark> O(n^2)
<CodeShark> you cannot derive the next key in the HD tree without the chain code
<CodeShark> since it uses an HMAC
<Luke-Jr> ok, good. that's what I thought
<CodeShark> but all this is moot if we use ECDSA anyhow ;)
<CodeShark> or any crypto based on discrete logs
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<CodeShark> well, the HASH160 thing still gives you 80 bits of security
<CodeShark> but...there's still a serious problem
<CodeShark> as soon as you publish a transaction spending the output, others know your public key and can start breaking it
<CodeShark> so if they can break it before the transaction gets confirmed, they might be able to mine a double-spend
<CodeShark> if we assume a complete break (where the time to reverse the elliptic curve multiplication is negligible compared to block interval) an ECDSA signature hashed with HASH160 is no better than just a random preimage hash
<CodeShark> rather, the ECDSA signatures become irrelevant - and the redeemscript might as well just be some random script that returns true no matter what ;)
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<Luke-Jr> CodeShark: we'd need to commit to transaction hashes
<Luke-Jr> probably a hardfork
<CodeShark> not sure I follow
<Luke-Jr> CodeShark: to spend, you'd make the txn, but keep it private until your txid is confirmed
<Luke-Jr> and such a transaction would only be valid if the txid had been confirmed in the chain
<CodeShark> ok, that's what I thought you might have meant - the immediate issue I can think of is how to pay a fee for inclusion of the tx hash commitment (or whether that can be pruned somehow once the tx itself is published)
<CodeShark> and the other is that offchain protocols completely fail
<Luke-Jr> fee can easily be part of the new consensus rules
<Luke-Jr> offchain protocols fail *for ECDSA-based stuff*
<CodeShark> but how do you pay a fee without presenting a signature immediately?
<Luke-Jr> the txid-mining format would just commit to a fee
<CodeShark> but that can be DoS'd pretty easily, no?
<Luke-Jr> hm, maybe. worst case, no fees
<Luke-Jr> it's not like it'd be a regular thing
<Luke-Jr> another option is paying the fee from a secure UTXO
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<CodeShark> probably better to just move to quantum-resistant crypto
<Luke-Jr> this is how we'd make the move if quantum beat us to it
<Luke-Jr> the outputs wouldn't be to ECDSA keys ;)
<CodeShark> we could just add another OP_CHECKSIGVERIFY family of op codes using a quantum-resistant scheme
<Luke-Jr> …
<Luke-Jr> you're missing the part where existing UTXOs aren't using that opcode
<CodeShark> oh...then we checkpoint :p
<CodeShark> lol
<CodeShark> hmmm
<Luke-Jr> checkpoint won't help
<CodeShark> yeah, I get what you're saying
<CodeShark> well, any UTXOs that reuse scripts that have already been spent would be basically screwed anyhow
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<Luke-Jr> CodeShark: of course, but that's unsupported address reuse ;)
<CodeShark> it would be better to issue a wide advisory for people to move their old UTXOs to new ones BEFORE a QC break ;)
<CodeShark> do we have any statistics on what % of UTXO are in reused scripts?
<CodeShark> anyone have a tool that can quickly compute that?
<Luke-Jr> CodeShark: afaik the only QC-resistant stuff now would be much larger tx sizes
<CodeShark> yes, it has worse performance and size characteristics...but not too extremely terrible...within practicality
<Luke-Jr> but not within what we'd want people to switch to prematurely
<CodeShark> well sure - ECDSA is very attractive in this regard
<CodeShark> but as opposed to other fancier crypto ideas such as zkSNARKS, quantum resistant signature schemes are probably well within practical limits for today's computers
<Luke-Jr> sure
<CodeShark> in any case, breaking discrete log means pretty much all of the currently widely used public key crypto would fail
<CodeShark> so we probably have other more serious problems to worry about ;
<CodeShark> ;)
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<CodeShark> also, RSA isn't particularly attractive either ;)
<CodeShark> compared to ECDSA
<CodeShark> yet RSA continues to be very widely used
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