<awygle> pie_: 1) lol 2) why me?
<awygle> oh right CyberCountry
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<mithro> Anyone know anything about RapidWright (rapidwright.io)? It seems to be a fork of RapidSmith extended and released by Xilinx?
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<whitequark> awygle: got the parts
<whitequark> whatever is in the cy7c package feels like a brick
<whitequark> at least, it's several orders of magnitude larger in volume than the ICs
<azonenberg> mithro: very interesting
<azonenberg> might be a useful sandbox for P&R work
<azonenberg> let us bridge between our file formats and vivado designs
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<openfpga-github> [Glasgow] whitequark pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow/commit/297b69b62e130c9e36ccb18bb3433bd3ee1061eb
<openfpga-github> Glasgow/master 297b69b whitequark: Fix u1 capacitors to be 0603, not 0201....
<pie_> oh my gooooooood https://imgur.com/gallery/JmaJoZt
<pie_> ok having read the comments i cant tell if a "manual hammer drill" is actually a thing.
<pie_> that still dont look right
<genii> No, you'll break your drill doing that
<whitequark> that's horrifying
<genii> Yesterday I had someone come ask me for screws to fasten a shelf to the wall. Then a few minutes later they came and asked me for a hammer. Then I heard them trying to hammer the screws for a while. Then they returned the screws and hammer, saying they were defective.
<qu1j0t3> ...
<whitequark> wtf
<pie_> [x_x]
<genii> At that point I didn't want to lend them any screwdrivers.
<pie_> you know, my biggest problem isnt even how they might not have known how screws work
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<whitequark> azonenberg: what in the fresh hell is "polyphenylene sulfide film capacitors"
<qu1j0t3> pie_: What is it then
<azonenberg> Never heard of that
<azonenberg> lol
<sorear> i'm not sure but I'd kind of like to know what process makes that now
<pie_> qu1j0t3, not solving the problem with a modicum of intelligence, such as asking for help
<sorear> it's not like the thiokol procedure will work with aryl halides
<pie_> qu1j0t3, or thinking that the ridges might serve as an impediment to driving a screw into a wall
<rqou> azonenberg: random other question: why do "sulfur-resistant" resistors exist? under what circumstances would somebody need one of those?
<sorear> *checks wikipedia* *checks patent* they … do use the thiokol reaction, just at stupid high temperature (260 C)
<genii> pie_: Later they came back with a bunch of that stretchy elastic adhesive stuff from the hardware store, so I guess that's what's holding the shelf up now
<sorear> s/260/450/
<sorear> why yes I'd like to run organic chemstry at 450 C
<rqou> heh, i'm pretty sure whitequark can do it in his secret lab :P
<rqou> *her, sorry
<awygle> PPS caps are very stable over temperature and frequency, they're used in high power rf sometimes
<rqou> awygle wtf
<rqou> how have you managed to use so many exotic parts?
<awygle> I haven't actually used those (I don't think)
<awygle> But they're a thing
<awygle> I read a lot
<rqou> i do to
<rqou> i guess not on the exact same topics
<awygle> You know way more than I do about security exploits and RE stuff
<awygle> For example
<rqou> does anybody here know who is behind the onchip project?
<rqou> azonenberg?
<rqou> this wasn't the one that looked like microfab homework, was it?
<sorear> @onchipuis?
<rqou> yeah, i'm referring to them
<rqou> anybody know who is behind them?
<sorear> it's in the name
<sorear> Universidad Industrial de Santander
<rqou> ah ok
<rqou> hmm
<rqou> they're obviously not the only ones with the idea to further subdivide a MPW
<rqou> but i'm not sure how they're planning to hit the price point they are proposing
<sorear> cheap colombian labor? (idk, haven't read the proposals)
<rqou> the normal cost of a MPW at these process nodes is ~$10k-$20k
<pie_> mpw?
<rqou> multi-project-wafer
<rqou> azonenberg: when are we going to tape out a custom asic of some kind? :P
<whitequark> rqou: it's not a secret lab
<whitequark> it's just a lab lol
<whitequark> rqou: re sulfur-resistant: oil&gas
<rqou> aah
<rqou> that makes sense
<whitequark> it's always o&g
<sorear> in what sense does a sulfur-resistant resistor resist sulfur
<sorear> [resists sulfur AND electricity!]
<whitequark> lol
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<pie_> ah
<pie_> sorear, viva la reSiStance
<openfpga-github> [Glasgow] whitequark pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow/commit/bc3d7f1eaefa702c2304ccd71329c2071e26ee26
<openfpga-github> Glasgow/master bc3d7f1 whitequark: Specify part number for J4.
<rqou> wtf
<Bike> pretty good
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<awygle> are we interested in vcpkg at all?
<whitequark> azonenberg: lol I found out what will limit the amount of bypass caps I use
<whitequark> I just bought out Mouser's entire stock of one
<whitequark> and it's not enough
<azonenberg> lol
<azonenberg> I've had that happen
<azonenberg> i bought out the whole supply for one customer and then bought a different part to fiish the job
<rqou> this shortage is ridiculous
<rqou> and it's expected to last till 2020?!
<pie_> the fuck lol
<awygle> who wants to start a capacitor factory
<rqou> me lol :P
<pie_> what in the world xD
<awygle> i assume there's some sort of material shortage
<whitequark> awygle: nope
<pie_> capacitors now limited by itar or something? :P
<whitequark> MLCC capacitors are literally advanced nanotechnology
<whitequark> the NRE in setting up a factory is like in silicon fab range at this point
<whitequark> but the margins are much smaller, *and* existing vendors stand to benefit from costs inflated by shortage
<rqou> not just "herp derp i sputtered some PZT"? :P
<pie_> whitequark, damn
<awygle> christ
<azonenberg> Welp
<azonenberg> Good to know, lol
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<sorear> i like the relativity of "advanced nanotechnology"
<rqou> whitequark stop flooding my TL :P
<whitequark> rqou: nope
<whitequark> catgirls must flow
<azonenberg> nooo
<azonenberg> the spice must flow
<rqou> does consuming too many pictures of catgirls turn your eyes blue? or just cause catlike pupils?
<azonenberg> I think it makes you grow cat ears
<pie_> nek-rq-ou
<rqou> nya?~
<rqou> :P
<whitequark> rqou: blue?
<rqou> reference to Dune
<whitequark> oh
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<rqou> the spice melange is supposed to turn the eyes of people who consume it blue
<awygle> also they can see the future and live forever
<whitequark> yeah
<awygle> *slightly* more important
<awygle> :p
<pie_> a e s t h e t i c
<awygle> actually i would totally wear bright blue contacts
<rqou> i'm not sure if blue-in-blue eyes is the best aesthetic when paired with cat ears
<azonenberg> awygle: Just make sure nobody mistakes you for a White Walker
<azonenberg> :p
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<azonenberg> Gotta have the stillsuit to go with it
<genii> Heh, Dune references
<pie_> though ive been a bit partial kitsune~ lately (no not dune & wolf)
<rqou> lol pie_
<q3k> still haven't read dune :(
<awygle> lmao dune and wolf
<whitequark> I wanted to wear bright green contacts but it turned out I'm incompatible with contacts
<rqou> incompatible?
<azonenberg> i should read the series again, it's been a long time
<awygle> whitequark: bummer :(
<whitequark> lol dune & wolf
<pie_> rqou, i didnt actually mean to make that joke but it was just so obvious while typing it
<azonenberg> whitequark: do you explosively polymerize?
<whitequark> hahahah
<rqou> lol
<whitequark> no they're just way too inconvenient
<pie_> azonenberg, thats new xD
<awygle> polymerizing with contacts is no joke
<azonenberg> In other news, i'm spending my evening laying out the LATENTRED line card while blasting a Gregorian chant cover of the Last Unicorn song
<rqou> i kinda want to get glasses (not contacts) so i can do what Ellied and her friend did
<azonenberg> what is wrong with me? :p
<pie_> catgirls are great and all but would they take on a worm for you?
<rqou> adding diffraction gratings and polarizers to the lens
<rqou> but idk how glasses would look on me
<awygle> my glasses are just polarized
<awygle> no diffraction
<azonenberg> pie_: Real Makers don't solder
<q3k> azonenberg: so what are you planning to run on LATENTRED? something openflow-like?
<pie_> azonenberg, xDDD
<q3k> azonenberg: i've had the idea of making my own damn 10GbE network switch for a while now
<pie_> bless the maker and his coming
<pie_> or was that not actually a dune reference
<azonenberg> q3k: Feel free to join the project
* pie_ 's neural networks are now overprimed
<q3k> azonenberg: although my latest idea was to use multiple PCIe line cards and dma between them (lockless ringbuffers maybe)
<q3k> azonenberg: -ENOTIME for the next year tbh
<whitequark> that seems overly complex
<sorear> contacts creep me out, idk how other people do it
<azonenberg> q3k: So, my architecture is dumb SGMII line cards
<awygle> for a long time i refused to wear glasses
<azonenberg> literally "PHYs on a stick" plus a bunch of voltage regulators
<azonenberg> Then a purely passive backplane, possibly repeaters but no intelligence
<whitequark> awygle: think you can fix the I2C read today?
<awygle> whitequark: working on it now
<rqou> sorear: yeah, especially my friends that wear circle lenses
<whitequark> thanks!
<azonenberg> Then a "brain" card that has all of the switch fabric
<rqou> i don't know how they stand it
<awygle> so far i'm not a huge migen fan :p
<awygle> i'm sure i'll get used to it
<sorear> and hey i've got two slabs of polycarbonate in front of my face at nearly all times, it'd be better if they were the wraparound safety kind but
<whitequark> oh? tell me more
<q3k> azonenberg: ah, so a fairly classic design
<azonenberg> q3k: yeah
<q3k> awygle: i wanted to push the brains as close to the ports as possible
<whitequark> migen does have its issues
<q3k> I mean azonenberg &^
<azonenberg> q3k: why?
<pie_> sorear, i find the idea of putting stuff in my eyes scary
<azonenberg> more FPGAs/asics
<rqou> i have neither contacts nor glasses
<q3k> azonenberg: because I want SDN in my SDN switch damnit
<azonenberg> The latency on the backplane is single digit nanoseconds
<azonenberg> Lol
<azonenberg> My brain is going to have a kintex-7 plus an arm soc
<whitequark> fpga defined networking
<rqou> not very great for being a e s t h e t i c :P
<azonenberg> So you can run whatever on there
<sorear> safety glasses suitable for all-day use and fashionable when
<azonenberg> awygle is planning to make an altera-based brain card that will probably be compatible with the LATENTRED backplane and line cards
<pie_> rqou, you can always get fake lenses
<pie_> i mean lenses with zero diopter xD
<q3k> azonenberg: rightyo
<azonenberg> sorear: i wear impact-rated sunglasses any time i'm on a bike
<azonenberg> and just any time i want sunglasses
<q3k> azonenberg: once oyu have the hw ready i might join for the gateware
<awygle> i _think_ these lenses are at least polycarbonate
<azonenberg> q3k: :)
<q3k> azonenberg: but really no time apart from that
<rqou> pie_: yeah, like i said i was actually considering that thanks to Ellied
<azonenberg> yeah fair enough
<pie_> rqou, ah i was thinking wrt normal glasses
<azonenberg> q3k: anyway, my plan for *my* firmware is to have it be a pure FPGA datapath
<q3k> azonenberg: i just want a nice hackable openflow-like thing
<azonenberg> With minimal fluff, low latency and simple architecture
<rqou> q3k: hack the lb4m/lb6m too? :P
<awygle> i usually go for that but idr buying these glasses tbh
<q3k> rqou: fuck reverse-engineering broadcom silicon
<azonenberg> I want 802.1q, 802.3ad, and maybe basic ACLs in LATENTRED
<q3k> rqou: i'd rather worok on my own
<azonenberg> Which will be 24x 10/100/1000 baseT + 4x 10Gbase-R
<rqou> q3k: there is a way to get register definitions out of the lb4m
<q3k> azonenberg: i don't like the idea of a switch being l2 capable but not l3 capable
<rqou> but i will absolutely not be helping unfortunately
<azonenberg> q3k: I plan to put enough gates in to eventually add L3 functionality
<azonenberg> But it wont make the initial firmware
<sorear> a dude a couple hours ago tried to tell me that polycarbonate protects against laser radiation. this is obviously not correct as stated but I wonder what its basis is
<q3k> well, the thing is that if you implement something like openflow, it can be l2-l7
<q3k> ootb
<rqou> sorear: absorbs 10um IR?
<q3k> without being aware of any of the protocols
<azonenberg> q3k: ATENTORANGE is going to be a much higher end design, probably 24-48 10G/40G interfaces
<q3k> just matching on bytes and making decisions according to that
<azonenberg> LATENTORANGE*
<whitequark> azonenberg: wtf why do you need that
<azonenberg> Based on a very large, beefy ultrascale
<azonenberg> whitequark: i plan to have all of my test equipment hanging off 10/40GbE down the road
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<q3k> all in all I want to be able to expose a given virtual IPv4/v6 address on a port
<azonenberg> I won't be using all the bandwidth at once, but i want 1-2 40G pipes from my workstation to "the lab"
<q3k> where the switch pretends to be the gateway for every mac address on that subnet
<azonenberg> and 10-40G from each piece of test equipment to the lab network
<q3k> and just takes the packets where needed
<q3k> making up the l2 segments as it goes along
<azonenberg> q3k: you can definitely do that with my hardware but thats very different from my firmware architecture
<q3k> anyway, gotta board a flight
<q3k> ttyl
<rqou> also azonenberg no thanks for shutting down the discussion about catgirls and dune :P
<rqou> why so serious? :P :P
<azonenberg> :P
<azonenberg> whitequark: you know about my oscilloscope project, right? that will saturate 10GbE easily and i'll probably put 40G on it
<whitequark> yeah but 48 40G interfaces
<rqou> we need to turn azonenberg into a catboy :P
<azonenberg> no i didnt mean that
<azonenberg> I meant more like 48 GTXs
<whitequark> oh
<azonenberg> Split across 24-48 total ports
<azonenberg> only a few will be 40G
<whitequark> that's... marginally more sane
<azonenberg> The RF signal generator will probably be 40G as well, if i want to unlock the full capability
<azonenberg> i.e. streaming 500 MHz bandwidth I/Q samples
<whitequark> azonenberg: are you competing with lecroy or what
<whitequark> actually maybe you should
<sorear> something something hook the 40G up to an antenna directly
<sorear> unfortunately, scrambling
<azonenberg> whitequark: my wavesurfer 3034 is a 1024x600 screen and has a crappy arm soc and 10/100 Ethernet interface, and the cpu cant even keep up
<azonenberg> sorear: Lol
<rqou> azonenberg: you should build a semiconductor parameter analyzer :P\
<rqou> let's set a very low bar of "crashes less than an HP 4145" :P
<azonenberg> whitequark: My planned oscilloscope will be able to do 50K WFM/s on 4 channels *over TCP*
<azonenberg> Then GPU-accelerated host side rendering, protocol decoding, etc
<azonenberg> You'll be able to do eye diagrams in 4Kp60 if you want
<sorear> do you *need* a 20 bit DAC for a RF signal generator? (40G / 2 for I+Q / 1000Msps for 500MHz Nyquist)
<rqou> btw azonenberg did you see one of my comments about the 4145B? "oh yeah, i think somebody 3d-printed a shim to bypass the interlock"
<azonenberg> The scope itself will be a 1U appliance with four SMA inputs and a QSFP+
<rqou> don't tell the university lawyers/OSHA that :P :P
<azonenberg> as the front panel :p
<azonenberg> no buttons, no LED, etc
<azonenberg> rqou: lol
<azonenberg> sorear: The one i'm looking at is i think 12 bits
<azonenberg> it wont saturate 40G but 10 isnt enough
<whitequark> Andrew O. Zonenberg
<whitequark> O stands for Overkill
<azonenberg> 2.7 Gsps * 12 bits = 32.4 Gbps
<rqou> azonenberg: 100G switch when :P
<azonenberg> rqou: dont temp tme
<sorear> azonenberg: i don't have good intuition here, what would happen if you tried to use a 4 bit dac
<azonenberg> there are QSFP28 interfaces on $client's vcu118 boards in front of me
<rqou> wtf
<rqou> what are they doing?
<azonenberg> rqou: NDA, sorry
<azonenberg> But i can say i'm "only" running them at 40G
<rqou> can you say roughly what industry?
<azonenberg> HPC
<rqou> ah ok
<azonenberg> sorear: This is more of a "the part exists, i want to do something with it"
<whitequark> ST has integrated a Cortex-M3 with a BLDC driver
<rqou> 400G switch when? the tech doesn't even quite exist yet :P
<whitequark> FETs and all
<rqou> whitequark: oh yeah, those are for HDDs
<azonenberg> 2.7 Gsps should be enough to give Nyquist around 1.3 GHz
<whitequark> rqou: you can always bond four 100G links
<azonenberg> So i'm probably going to target analog B/W of DC to 500 MHz
<azonenberg> sorear: anyway, raw scalar samples will be 32.4 Gbps + framing overhead
<sorear> so roughly when will we have man-portable 100T switches with one fiber per port
<azonenberg> If i do vector I/Q at say 1 Gsps, that's still a buttload of data
<rqou> whitequark: oh wow you can get datasheets for those parts?
<azonenberg> Realistically, the most *common* use case of the thing will be an arbitrary waveform generator or DDS
<sorear> does "vector" just mean "2 samples"?
<rqou> you can't for the SMOOTH-branded controllers
<azonenberg> Yes
<azonenberg> anyway, the most common application will be just generating sine/square etc waveforms on demand
<azonenberg> But once i have the DAC and FPGA
<azonenberg> the transceivers are essentially free
<azonenberg> And wiring up a QSFP+ allows me to do "analog bitbang" mode if i just want to generate an arbitrary waveform in real time :p
<whitequark> rqou: looking at page 5
<whitequark> did they actually put two dice into it?
<rqou> oh lol i saw that too
<rqou> quite possibly
<rqou> hilarious
<rqou> i want one of these parts now
<q3k> eh, not boarding yet
<whitequark> that thing is absurdly integrated
<q3k> azonenberg: so for dev 1G is fine
<q3k> azonenberg: but for prod I absolutely need 10G as well
<awygle> that's pretty great actually
<awygle> planetlabs will put it in reaction wheels immediately
<rqou> btw somebody really really should find the part of the lb4m firmware that has register names
<q3k> azonenberg: and there's a few other weird things I need from the data plane as well: encapsulating into GUE/GRE/IPIP
<rqou> it's really not a secret
<q3k> azonenberg: and ECMP with configurable source/dst hashing
<q3k> azonenberg: also sub-5ms reconfiguration times for the data plane ecmp destination list
<q3k> azonenberg: so yeah, I want a platform to experiment with/on :D
<q3k> (i'm borrowing ideas from contrail's vrouter and a google maglev collapsed with whatever-they-use-in-front-of-it)
<q3k> boarding now.
<rqou> oh i just remembered
<rqou> azonenberg want to rush a defcon badgelife badge?
<asy> 07:06 < azonenberg> whitequark: My planned oscilloscope will be able to do 50K WFM/s on 4 channels *over TCP*
<asy> Just curious, what ADC do you plan to use?
<sorear> azonenberg: wait where does the .4 in 32.4 come from
<rqou> i mean, there aren't all that many choices for high-speed ADCs are there?
<rqou> there's the ancient ADC08D1020
<rqou> and various Hittite Microwave parts
<sorear> I like how little "high speed" has changed recently
<rqou> hey, physics is hard
<rqou> huh, the HMCAD1520 is "only" $110
<q3k> there's a HMCAD in the siglent we're hacking on
<q3k> 1GS/s
<q3k> they seem okay. cute for already sending eye-aligned data
<rqou> yeah
<rqou> iirc i only found out about this chip from teardowns of low/mid-range scopes
<rqou> oh what the ADC08D1020 is like $400
<rqou> total ripoff
<q3k> i still don't think there's any mid-range (ie 5GS/s+ scopes) that are based on COTS components
<awygle> uuuugh why isn't this working
<azonenberg> q3k: LATENTRED will be 1G on the access layer interfaces and 10G on the uplinks
<azonenberg> LATENTORANGE is where the fun stuff comes in
<q3k> azonenberg: no such thing as an uplink in my architecture
<azonenberg> i mean they're all bridged together in one fabric
<q3k> azonenberg: as I want my backend to be, well, a CLOS fabric
<azonenberg> But the intent is for the high speed links to go to the network core and/or high performance servers/workstations
<q3k> oldschool ^^
<azonenberg> And the 1G links to go to less demanding endpoints
<awygle> i am only staying in READ-SHIFT for 7 falling edges instead of 8, on the 8th one i immediately transition to READ-ACK afaict
<azonenberg> q3k: that sounds nice in ASIC but i think in FPGA a full crossbar is the more efficient topology
<asy> rqou: TI/Analog Device have some nice ADC chips.
<q3k> I'm targeting the HW to DC switches
<rqou> asy: yeah, those are exactly the parts i listed
<azonenberg> At least for lower port counts
<q3k> where 10GbE is the bare minimum these days, really
<rqou> the TI (former NatSemi) parts and the Analog (former Hittite) parts
<azonenberg> i did the numbers, ~30% of xc7k70t for a 28-port crossbar with 64 bits @ 156.25 MHz
<sorear> CLOS is nice if you have free wires and expensive switches
<rqou> you don't have too many choices for fast ADCs
<q3k> and then depending on your oversubscription/cross-rack-traffic you have N ports to the spine switches
<sorear> this is no longer the case, so I think crossbars win even in asicland
<sorear> however
<azonenberg> q3k: So yeah, i think you want LATENTORANGE as the end game target for your project
<q3k> yeah, but the first platform as an experimenting ground
<azonenberg> LATENTRED is kinda a prototyping platform to get the fabric brought up in a less demanding environment
<q3k> since all the NETFPGAs are overprices
<sorear> azonenberg's use case can be met with a cascaded crossbar: N*40G crossbar to an 80G internal pipe, then crossbar that to the outputs
<q3k> anyway, ttyl
<azonenberg> As well as something to replace my aging cisco 2970G's
<sorear> which will use much less fabric for N ~ 48
<rqou> btw azonenberg thoughts on bunnie's active-probes-only oscilloscope design?
<sorear> this could also be done by running a bunch of smaller switches in a chain
<rqou> personally i think it's pretty cool
<azonenberg> sorear: yeah the LATENTRED fabric will be a 10G full crossbar
<azonenberg> then rate matching fifos on the output ports for 1G
<rqou> wouldn't use the ADC08D1020 though since it's so much more expensive than the HMCAD1520
<azonenberg> rqou: what, 50 ohm impedance only?
<rqou> yes
<azonenberg> i prefer Z0 probes since i mostly work with fast digital
<rqou> over sata cables
<azonenberg> Over coax
<azonenberg> Yeah i read about it
<azonenberg> Just didnt remember specifics of the internal arch
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<azonenberg> But a Z0 probe is going to have 50 ohm output impedance to the host
<rqou> pretty generic arch tbh
<azonenberg> And 50*N at the DUT side
<rqou> except it's memory-mapped into the i.MX6 of the novena
<azonenberg> When i build myself a DSO
<azonenberg> It's going to be very similar to that
<rqou> similar to bunnie's idea?
<azonenberg> 50 ohm impedance only i mean
<rqou> yeah
<rqou> i think it's a good idea
<azonenberg> But i expect to mostly use Z0 probes and not active fet probes
<azonenberg> And it will be bolted onto a tcp offload engine instead of an i.mx
<azonenberg> And it will be circa 10 Gsps
<azonenberg> So a lot more expensive
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<rqou> hilariously i also use the tek P6139B passive probes right now and also think they're way too expensive :P
<azonenberg> Although i wil lbe making several lower speed prototypes first
<azonenberg> to hopefully make my obvious atal mistakes there before i get up to the high end stuff :p
<azonenberg> fatal*
<rqou> really nice probes though
<rqou> unlike all the f*cked up agilent probes in the university labs :P :P
<azonenberg> rqou: how about lecroy pp066
<azonenberg> for a high end passive probe :p
<rqou> ehhh... no thanks :P
<rqou> at those speeds i don't get why you would use a passive probe
<rqou> wait
<azonenberg> That's a Z0 probe
<rqou> no, google's AI picked the wrong photos
<rqou> yeah, i see
<rqou> it's a bit of coax :P
<azonenberg> And a resistor
<rqou> sure
<azonenberg> massively overpriced imo
<azonenberg> But my point is, this is in actual use for high end probing
<rqou> wait, no that image was correct
<azonenberg> And as long as you can handle a bit of loading on your dut
<rqou> wtf it's like $1k
<azonenberg> more i thought
<rqou> except it's got a nice fancy case
<rqou> :P
<azonenberg> i plan to make a hand holdable version of my probe at some point
<azonenberg> Since right now i only have solder-in ones
<rqou> azonenberg: when are we going to build a "rather specialized" probe with a jfet and an electrochemically-etched-wire probe tip? :P
<azonenberg> Once i unpack my 4" wafer prober in the new lab
<azonenberg> And build a proper stage for it since the existing one is garbage
<rqou> and when is that going to be? :P
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<rqou> azonenberg: you never accepted/declined my offer to race me graduating vs you renovating
<rqou> :P
<azonenberg> I'll let you know as soon as i know :p
<awygle> rqou: you graduate in like two weeks
<rqou> not quite
<awygle> you're gonna win lol
<rqou> a bit more than that
<awygle> what like may 14th?
<awygle> somewhere around there usually
<rqou> that's like 2.6 weeks
<azonenberg> I am definitely not going to be done renovating in 2 weeks
<azonenberg> my hvac guy isnt even coming until the 8th
<rqou> when are you getting kicked out again?
<azonenberg> My recently renewed lease ends at the end of may
<azonenberg> I'm going to try to wrangle another month out
<rqou> also i love how distinctive "jfet and an electrochemically-etched wire" really is
<rqou> :P
<rqou> there's basically only one type of use case for something like that
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<sorear> context?
<rqou> this is how you build hacky probes for probing dies
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<awygle> rqou: do you have a gig lined up post-graduation?
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<openfpga-github> [Glasgow] awygle pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow/commit/34a9a3da70dd30079c275e9be7f3e7a9aa9c36e0
<openfpga-github> Glasgow/master 34a9a3d Andrew Wygle: Fixed most issues with i2c slave read....
<awygle> whitequark: i figured it out, mostly. still possibly a problem with the stop bit, but more likely a "awygle can't figure out tests" but
<awygle> *bug
<sorear> I imagine that's not literally what the traces are going to look like
<azonenberg> the white ratsnest? no :p
<azonenberg> i'm doing "raster scan" layout in a way
<azonenberg> one pair of PHYs at a time, MDI bus from magnetics to RJ45
<azonenberg> then MDI bus from PHY to magnetics
<azonenberg> then PHY support components
<azonenberg> Then finally SGMII bus out to the connector, power supply, etc will come last
<sorear> yeah I was gonna say that's a lot of crossings :p
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<whitequark> awygle: thank
<whitequark> i'll try to fix the rest
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<florolf> rqou: (re lb4m) why prod the firmware when there's a leaked bcm sdk on github? https://github.com/ariavie/bcm :p
<florolf> prodding firmware might actually be less painful than looking at the awful bcmsdk code, though :p
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<balrog> florolf: that's not going to last there forever
<balrog> brcm is rather proactive at taking stuff down... if they can find/identify it
* awygle yawn
<awygle> o/
<pie_> gotta upload things upside down
<florolf> balrog: Latest commit bd0f09a on Sep 7, 2015
<balrog> florolf: yeah I know
<balrog> look through github.com/github/dmca though
<balrog> you'll see a lot of brcm stuff
<balrog> including other instances of that
<florolf> yeah, i was surprised to find that there TBH
<florolf> the point in posting this here was to give rqou some plausible deniability :p
<balrog> you'd be surprised by what you find in "GPL" releases ;)
<balrog> (by device vendors)
<implr> an interesting existing product similar to azonenberg's 40G idea would be the arista 7050qx - broadcom silicon, but runs linux, you get root on the box and arista publish a sdk on github
<implr> <$1.5k used on ebay
<pie_> rqou, why start a capacitor factory when you can make a much bigger profit from overpriced glasses frames
<pie_> (well i dont actually know how much of a profit the ymake but, overpriced as fuck, as i am coming to discover)
<qu1j0t3> pie_: it isn't the factory making the profit
<qu1j0t3> pie_: See also: iPhone
<gruetzkopf> my steamlink already wrote that bcm repo to disk
<gruetzkopf> for the aacheners: /tmp/gruetze/bcm-sdk.zip
<G33KatWork> what chips is this sdk for?
<G33KatWork> nvm, found the release notes: BCM534XX
<florolf> G33KatWork: strata xgs
<G33KatWork> ah, even more. nice
<G33KatWork> any cheap hardware this stuff runs on?
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<implr> speaking of leaks, if you ever need any test equipment manuals... http://bee.mif.pg.gda.pl/ciasteczkowypotwor/
<implr> (I do not know the source, somebody linked that on irc)
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<florolf> hm, it also seems to have code for roboswitch, but there's upstream linux support for most of the relevant stuff
<florolf> G33KatWork: l4bm and friends. apparently upstream linux also boots now on ubnt edgeswitches (https://git.kernel.org/torvalds/c/bc79cce741fab70968141c67974f8e99e31aec47), so getting configuration of the switch fabric working there would be cool
<G33KatWork> ah, these things. nice
<florolf> i tried the upstream stuff on a switch from $previous_employer which has a related soc, but couldn't get the pcie interface to the fabric to work
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<gruetzkopf> i only have old Piece-of-S* switches
<gruetzkopf> newest are HP 2848 :(
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<qu1j0t3> gruetzkopf: that's a GbE switch, why is it a pos?
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<gruetzkopf> it's a OLD 1GE switch
<gruetzkopf> and it's only a 1GE switch (though it should be possible to add up to 4 10GE interfaces)
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<q3k> just because it's 1GbE doesn't mike it non-shite
<q3k> see: all the cheapo 'managed' netgear switches
<qu1j0t3> why is "old" a problem
<gruetzkopf> because it's quite power-hungry
<gruetzkopf> do if you want it to run silent (because it's 20cm from your head when you sleep) you have to run it with the lid removed, vertically and with heatsinks stuck to the ASICs
<qu1j0t3> maybe it could be repositioned?
<Ultrasauce> what, you dont sleep next to a gbe switch??
<qu1j0t3> i prefer pillows
<Ultrasauce> ya but what are you gonna cuddle
<qu1j0t3> i _like_ my GbE switches but not like that
<Ultrasauce> maybe you just havent met the right one yet
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<G33KatWork> tp-link plastic gbe switch user here
<awygle> i have never needed more than the 5 ports on my netgear router
<G33KatWork> then you don't have enough comuters/devboards/testgear
<G33KatWork> my stupid rigol bench power supply has ethernet. although I have to admit that I never used it so far
<awygle> all my devboards are usb
<awygle> sadly
<G33KatWork> my scope - only used ethernet to pwn it though and get shells
<awygle> my SA has ethernet
<awygle> i don't think my rigol scope does but i could be wrong
<gruetzkopf> my room is at 59 or so occupied ports
<awygle> jesus
<awygle> i wouldn't have the floor space to fit 59 of anything
<mithro> daveshah: Do you think the UP5K could to UTMI?
<daveshah> mithro: unlikely, the UP5K is terrible from a timing point of view
<daveshah> a 60MHz interface will be pushing it
<daveshah> strictly speaking you could do the UTMI bit, but useful USB 2.0 is unlikely
<gruetzkopf> my mostly useless stack of network gear is capable of providing 300-ish 10/100 and 96 1GE ports, as well as 72 ADSL2+, some E1, some HDSL and some G.SHDSL, as well as 64 async serial..
<mithro> daveshah: Hrm? Is the IO performance that much worse too?
<daveshah> don't know how much the IO has changed
<awygle> I/O performance won't be the problem
<daveshah> fabric is 40-100% higher delay than an LP8K
<daveshah> that's the problem
<awygle> what about the 30 MHz 16-bit bus?
<mithro> awygle: Have I got UTMI and UPLI confused again...
<daveshah> maybe doable
<daveshah> but it will need good optimisation
<daveshah> Right now USB 1.1 is enough of a struggle on the UltraPlus
<daveshah> Admittedly without a PHY
<awygle> mithro: UTMI has a 60 MHz 8-bit and a 30 MHz 16-bit, UTMI has 60 MHz 8-bit and 60 MHz 4-bit DDR
<daveshah> It's the 30MHz 16-bit that's the only feasible option
<awygle> err, that second UTMI should be ULPI
<mithro> daveshah: Hrm, I would have guess it was the PHY part you were struggling with?
<daveshah> Not sure, it was mostly Luke and Piotr working on that. But I know it was a general struggle
<mithro> daveshah: I was wondering if adding a UTMI/UPLI PHY would make things easier or not
<daveshah> Well, it might reduce the clock from 48MHz to 30MHz
<daveshah> But it would also increase the amount of data involved
<daveshah> And probably the length of the timing paths
<mithro> daveshah: You can also throw away a lot of the data :-P
<awygle> i'm not sure how usb deals with clocking but it'd also give you a nice clocked interface
<florolf> gruetzkopf: what is that?
<mithro> awygle: Yeah - I know that tinyfpga was struggling with the jitter from the PLL
<cr1901_modern> https://twitter.com/fpga_dave/status/985130126068330498 Interesting that means USB _does_ fit in 1k
<awygle> well that's the theory anyway
<gruetzkopf> what's what?
<daveshah> Yes, it's not a fit problem
<daveshah> It's a timing problem
<florolf> gruetzkopf: the gear you mentioned
<daveshah> The LP1K is a lot faster than the UP5K
<gruetzkopf> some hp 28xx series switches, a few hp26xx switches, a few draytek dslams and a few EOL'd cisco routers, plus assorted modems..
<florolf> ah, i thought that was one box
<cr1901_modern> daveshah: Well I have an HX1K (I jumped on the bandwagon and bought icestick as soon as icestorm was ready), and would be interested in playing w/ USB on that :P
<gruetzkopf> naah, no n7k here :D
<daveshah> cr1901_modern: FYI, that Qualcomm thing was not USB as we know it but a USIM version that is clocked AFAICs
<mithro> cr1901_modern: I sent you a tinyfpga right?
<cr1901_modern> mithro: Yes
<cr1901_modern> I have no idea what USIM is
<florolf> gruetzkopf: i have a nsn dslam which also has a bunch of useless linecards, so that sounded familiar
<mithro> cr1901_modern: Sooo... Get cracking with that litex-buildenv support :-P
<gruetzkopf> (well, the serial ports and the G.SHDSL are all in a 3745)
<gruetzkopf> i'm actively using TDM stuff in my home network btw
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<cr1901_modern> mithro: Will do if lm32 decides to behave
<daveshah> cr1901_modern: sorry not USIM, UICC USB
<cr1901_modern> I mean I have it reading from flash. It just crashes after 6 insns ._.
<cr1901_modern> b/c why make things simple when you can make them complex?
<daveshah> The tinyfpga bootloader uses 1554 LEs
<daveshah> so maybe it can fit in a 1k with optimisation
<cr1901_modern> it would be something I'd be interested in trying if I can ever concentrate on a hobbyist pursuit ever again
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<cr1901_modern> But I don't see that happening anytime soon
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<rqou> whitequark: your full genome sequence only cost about USS$2500?! how come more people haven't done this?
<rqou> *USD
<sorear> most of the US sequencing companies have a "we own your data in perpetuity and can use or resell it for any purpose at our discretion" clause in their contract, which is the main reason people in my circles have avoided the matter
<rqou> whitequark: is there a way for me to "just" send you a blood sample and USD$3k and get a genome sequence back?
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<rqou> yet another thread on birdsite about "SMD is teh hardz"
<rqou> azonenberg: we should make a harder smd challenge
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<awygle_> rqou: we should make a progressive smd challenge
<rqou> meaning?
<awygle_> the same design, in THT, SOIC/0805, SOT-23/0603, SC-70/0402
<awygle_> classifications are directional, not accurate
<awygle_> at some point we should add QFP, QFN, BGA, etc
<awygle_> i think four levels is about right
<rqou> i mean, "the" existing smd challenge already has levels
<rqou> 0805 to 0201
<awygle_> yeah but a) it's not an actual thing and b) it doesn't cover the actually hard stuff like QFN and BGA
<awygle_> by "not an actual thing" i mean it's not a functional design in any sense, it's a resistor and an LED
<jn__> someone should buy a thousand broken iphone mainboards and sell them as a rework challenge :)
<awygle_> ah, apparently the "misery edition" has a QFN
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<rqou> awygle: there's also azonenberg's reworkctf, does that count?
<awygle> rqou: "the O is for Overkill"
<rqou> lol
<felix_> hmm, that kicad uses number of pins + 1 for the big pad of a qfn does make sense for packages that have more than one pad inside the ring of pads. not very common, but i've seen some chips with multiple pads in the middle
<rqou> yeah, i don't think even i'm at the level of being able to do reworkctf
<rqou> felix_: yeah of course. my favorite so far is the VNH2SP30
<awygle> usually those pads are given actual numbers in the datasheet
<awygle> ime
<rqou> not on this part :P
<awygle> rqou: i'm not even close to being able to do reworkctf and i'm All Right With That, Thank You
<rqou> just look at the VNH2SP30 footprint
<rqou> it's hilarious
<awygle> yeah that's a funky ass chip lol
<rqou> "Figure 43. Thermal fitting model of an H-bridge in MultiPowerSO-30" is pretty great too
<awygle> i really want to play with this ST BLDC controller part, it's super cool
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<rqou> lolol
<rqou> azonenberg: random thought: ever see people use microcontroller RNG peripherals? do they actually work correctly?
<tnt> scnr
<rqou> lol I'm not Sony i should do better than that :P
<sgstair> yes, uC RNGs work - I wouldn't trust them for crypto RNG without furthe vetting but in my experience they work fine.
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<rqou> are they usually usable for seeding csprngs directly or do they usually need more whitening first?
<sgstair> I certainly wouldn't trust them for that, but stacking and hashing a bunch of values should be fine.
<sorear> generate a kB, hash it
<rqou> and then you can feed it into a csprng?
<gruetzkopf> some people seem to be everywhere i am
<sgstair> yeah. The concern is you don't want a potentially malicious data source to feed directly into a secure seed (because it might be compromised in difficult ways to understand) - but if you collect a bunch of values, and hash them together that is sufficiently unpredictable
<rqou> ok, that's what i figured
<rqou> either way better than "herp derp read an unconnected adc pin"
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<sgstair> that can work, but really needs active testing to be sure the input is random at all
<implr> gruetzkopf: curious, what gear provides that? >as well as 72 ADSL2+, some E1, some HDSL and some G.SHDSL, as well as 64 async serial..
<awygle> every time i've done that i've gotten "0 plus input noise", so DNs betwee like 0 and 6
<gruetzkopf> some hp 28xx series switches, a few hp26xx switches, a few draytek dslams and a few EOL'd cisco routers, plus assorted modems..
<gruetzkopf> sadly it's not a single device
<rqou> yeah i know reading adc pins doesn't work
<awygle> run a long trace off your empty ADC pin maybe? more efficient "CMB radiation" antenna?
<gruetzkopf> still gets you a very limited range in most cases
<awygle> "give me your EMI!"
<rqou> a while back a bunch of infosec people on birdsite were "rediscovering" this fact
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<rqou> I don't know what they expected
<awygle> put 20 dB of gain in between the antenna and the pin? :p
<rqou> of course it doesn't work
<awygle> this week on "fix a bad design with bandaids"
<gruetzkopf> async and sync serial and HDSL/ G.SHDSL are provided by a c3745
<rqou> awygle: or just measure the skew between two oscillators?
<awygle> rqou: i'd actually just put a noise diode on the board
<implr> gruetzkopf: I was mostly curious about the dslams, but now I see you can get some on ebay for less than 200eur
<gruetzkopf> yay, you "randomly" get ADC_MIN or ADC_MAX then..
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<gruetzkopf> the dslams are draytek vigoraccess 24-port Annex-A thingies
<sorear> Does that not get you Johnson Nyquist noise?
<rqou> awygle: but mine quite possibly requires no board changes (for band-aid-ing)
<awygle> rqou: fair
<rqou> e.g. system osc vs 32khz osc
<sgstair> generally uC RNGs tend to be one of: a large LFSR that's clocked constantly, or some free-running high speed oscillator that's sampled at the clock rate with some compensation to reduce predictability.
<rqou> or crystal vs internal RC
<gruetzkopf> (which is annoying because annex-a was never widely deployed in germany, always annex-b here)
<sgstair> both can be pretty high quality if done well.
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<gruetzkopf> (so if anyone has a box of annex-a ADSL modems they want to get rid of..)
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<awygle> sorear: you get shot noise ("poisson noise") which is pretty good usually
<rqou> gruetzkopf: nah, we just deploy extremely shitty VDSL2 modems instead
<implr> gruetzkopf: Poland was pretty much the opposite, I'd guess there's tons of those (shitty usb annex-a) on allegro
<awygle> probably not great for crypto, i'd guess it's vulnerable to a hairdryer
<rqou> although I've been told they're now less shitty now that $SHIT_TELCO fired 2wire
<awygle> oh hey no it's not
<awygle> that's cool
<implr> gruetzkopf: yeah, people are selling them for as low as 2eur
<awygle> although of course the JN noise superimposes
<gruetzkopf> nah i want "stupid" eth<->adsl bridges
<gruetzkopf> though i wouldn't say no to ATM-based ones
<gruetzkopf> (of which even i have only one (and that's annex B)
<rqou> gruetzkopf: wtf are you doing? setting up CCCAC-ISP? :P
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<implr> ah, ethernet will be harder to get - those almost-free shitty usb ones come from then-monopolist telco giving them to basically every customer
<gruetzkopf> ethernet for full IAD for free was REALLY common in germany
<gruetzkopf> i need to poke the settings some more, maybe i can get a -B modem to link
<q3k> gruetzkopf: huh, are you from cccac?
<q3k> gruetzkopf: I just arrived in Aachen today :)
<q3k> (staying until Friday for a training)
<jn__> this channel is full of cccac
<q3k> heh
<pie_> q3k, lucky! :D
<pie_> jn__, i get the impression cccac has been getting pretty good at hardware lately
<pie_> or was it always like that? xD
<gruetzkopf> yeah (i'll be there tomorrow)
<rqou> brb moving to aachen :P
<pie_> ^^^
<pie_> it seemed like a great place when i was there
<pie_> fuck you guys lol <3
<q3k> i should come here more often for business, i guess :P
<rqou> let's vote: ##openfpga dorm in *) sf bay *) pacific northwest *) aachen *) Hungary *) HK
<rqou> :P :P
<cpresser> yep, visit us in the cccac hackerspace :)
<q3k> cpresser: I was there last time with G33KatWork
<gruetzkopf> *) some barn near frankfurt
<q3k> we were hacking on some xbone stuff
<gruetzkopf> yeah we finally recruited him too :D
<pie_> objectively, aachen
<awygle> "Located in the east bay, Christ Community Chinese Alliance Church...." probably not this
<q3k> awygle: totally this
<gruetzkopf> :D
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<pie_> buy id totally be happy with everyone coming here and keeping me company :D
<q3k> board director: hands acker
<jn__> it's Cyber Cyber Cyber Aachen Cyber
<q3k> *hans acker
<pie_> maybe we can singlehandedly turn this into an industrial center lal
<pie_> awygle, lmao
<gruetzkopf> we're currently located between heavy industry and artists
* awygle has never even been to europe
<rqou> wtf awygle
<rqou> you need to get out more
<rqou> not just breaking your foot :P
<pie_> wtf awygle we're not letting you go back to america
<awygle> i've been to lots of places in asia and central/south america!
<gruetzkopf> train maintenance company, car manufacturer, design offices, artists, computer club
<q3k> #openfpga tour to cccac and hswaw when
* jn__ hasn't left europe, which isn't any better
<gruetzkopf> i've been to pre-potato usa
<awygle> just never europe (or africa)
<gruetzkopf> visiting family
<rqou> awygle: ah ok
<pie_> jn__, nah everywhere else is terrible :PP
<awygle> (or antarctica)
<awygle> (or australia)
<gruetzkopf> (which seems to be spread ALL over the place)
<rqou> gruetzkopf: surely you mean pre-Dorito :P
<pie_> gruetzkopf, hey, free rent! ;D
<gruetzkopf> i know of not-too-distant family on all continents except for antarctica
<awygle> damn, that's actually really cool
<rqou> btw ##openfpga is always welcome to sleep on my couch :P
<rqou> there's five here :P
<awygle> my fambly is lame, geographically speaking
<pie_> gruetzkopf, i guess you can be the one that does antarctica
<awygle> ... and in most other ways come to think
<rqou> awygle: hopefully your family isn't Tr*mpian?
<awygle> not... most of them? maybe one or two
<jn__> ...oO(gruetzkopf rebuild's antartica's internet connection)
<awygle> we don't really talk politics
<gruetzkopf> if i do antarctica net, i want to FINALLY implement earth-moon-earh 802.11b#
<jn__> (aaargh, too many apostrophes)
<awygle> gruetzkopf: i' min
<jn__> gruetzkopf++
<gruetzkopf> i've done a back-of-the-envelope calculation
* awygle has also read this paper
<gruetzkopf> 3m dish and a magnetron
<rqou> gruetzkopf: wait, 802.11 EME is technically possible?
<awygle> rqou: specifically 802.11b
<gruetzkopf> best paper on IEEE spectrum
<awygle> (and the DSSS mode of 802.11 nil i guess)
* awygle has tried to build this but for cubesats
<gruetzkopf> beacon frames SSID="We are coming" would be fun too
<rqou> let's do it :P
<pie_> gruetzkopf will just redirect a few satellites and bam internet
<awygle> i have to find that paper with the missiles and the linksys routers again
<rqou> i love how 2.4GHz is an amateur radio allocation
<gruetzkopf> if you can get around 20-ish kW of output power and a 13m dish that could *barely* be enough for good wifi nics to see it
<pie_> oh shit lmao
<pie_> the ssid frames
<pie_> awygle, say what now
<rqou> gruetzkopf: now can you still do it under the amateur PEP restrictions?
<pie_> gruetzkopf, expect men in suits when? xD
<pie_> psh its antarctica, can do whatever want!
<awygle> pie_: there's this amazing paper where they were testing doppler tolerance of 802.11b equipment by putting it in the nose cones of missiles on rocket sleds
<pie_> huh.
<awygle> the results section is ths best thing ever
<gruetzkopf> of course not, rqou
<pie_> rockets are slow compared to light, i wonder.
<awygle> "blah blah blah 40 kHz doppler tolerance confirmed, our biggest issues in our experiment were the Linksys routers we used as the stationary elements - next time we will buy Netgear"
* pie_ doesnt know doppler equations off the top of his head
<pie_> awygle, loool
<rqou> gruetzkopf: why of course not?
<awygle> pie_: v/c * f = delta f
<gruetzkopf> in germany there's this saying "Ohne lizenz auf jeder frequence"
<rqou> EME voice is definitely possible under the power restrictions
<awygle> yeah but that's an OOM less bandwidth
<rqou> I'm pretty sure hams were the first to demonstrate EME
<gruetzkopf> yeah but that's not 20MHz bandwidth
<gruetzkopf> more like 4OOM
<rqou> can't you run wifi with narrower channels?
<awygle> yeah but the DSSS doesn't count
<awygle> it comes out in the wash of the coding gain
<awygle> it's still uhh... i guess 3 OOM? for 2Mbit
* rqou has an Extra and doesn't know how any of this works lol
<awygle> or no, 2. 20k->200k->2m
* gruetzkopf has no license yet
<rqou> too many old farts in this hobby who are scared of digital
<gruetzkopf> (but a 20kHz allocation in 2m band)
* awygle has a tech license because he did not read the rules before taking the test
<pie_> * gruetzkopf has no license yet
<pie_> * gruetzkopf needs no license yet
<pie_> ftfy
<gruetzkopf> (right where the USA have their 2m ham band)
<awygle> i got mine for high altitude balloon flights
<awygle> which are buck wild by the way. absolutely crazy
<pie_> awygle, must be fun to chase :P
<rqou> gruetzkopf was this your silly railway allocation?
<awygle> Allocation For: Silly Railway (no serious railways allowed)
<gruetzkopf> only wather balloons i've participated in had AN0NYM as their call (because we forgot the last firmware update)
<gruetzkopf> 146.670MHz, 15km radius, cologne area
<awygle> this was... not a weather balloon
<rqou> also wtf these alloccations overlap?
<gruetzkopf> proper hot air ballon?
<awygle> it was a helium balloon
<pie_> awygle, a "weather balloon" you say
<awygle> but it was _substantially_ larger
<gruetzkopf> oh
<awygle> we could easily have killed someone
<awygle> despite following all the laws/rules
<gruetzkopf> iirc this year people are planning the 40m³ propane balloon
<gruetzkopf> (already approved by DFS, afair (FAA equivalent))
<rqou> awygle: at least you haven't managed to almost kill the whole planet by launching a sounding rocket :P :P
<pie_> we need to bounce a CyberCountry station off the moon
<awygle> https://nsc.aero/ the first image is not the flight i did but it is the same balloon afaict
<awygle> that payload looks much lighter though
<gruetzkopf> if i had a launch slot on a cubesat i'd simply grab 6 micro-APs (one for each side), attach a proper antenna and fill the rest with batteries
<rqou> who here wants to be the first to accidentally the entire planet while trying to into space? :P :P
<rqou> (aaaand we're all on (another) list now)
<awygle> gruetzkopf: so this is challenging because of TOF. ideally you want to run adrian chadd's freebsd TDM MAC
<awygle> CSMA gets pretty screwy at those ranges
<implr> maybe wifibroadcast?
<gruetzkopf> the freifunk people already made a proper mess of ath9k
<gruetzkopf> should work
<rqou> what about BLE trololo
<awygle> it is support_able_ but idk if it's support_ed_
<awygle> implr: that'd proably work
<rqou> hey felix_ we could really use the ath10k hacking now :P
<gruetzkopf> ^
<gruetzkopf> proper TDMA should help a lot
<gruetzkopf> sync to gps, done
<awygle> yes, TDMA is the way to go
<gruetzkopf> bibor: TDMA sattelite radio systems!
<lain> can you get gps sync in orbit?
<awygle> lain: yes
<lain> neat
<gruetzkopf> (yet another exile-aachen-person)
<awygle> it's actually way easier than on the ground lol
<gruetzkopf> some receivers don't like being above 35km or moving that fast
<gruetzkopf> but there's plenty others
<awygle> yeah that's a SW lockout
<awygle> (almost always)
<implr> does that lockout still apply to glonass or galileo?
<awygle> because ~~ITAR~~
<awygle> implr: yes. any GNSS made in the USA that doesn't want to be under the USML.
<awygle> (and most other countries just put it in place to make things easy afaict)
<rqou> i thought being in space means you need some slightly different corrections than being on the ground?
<awygle> not that i'm aware of
<rqou> also, at what point are you still running 802.11 and not just a custom bespoke wireless protocol?
<gruetzkopf> using 802.11 hardware for mod/demod is still the cheapest you can get
<rqou> awygle: so, is http://www.aholme.co.uk/GPS/Main.htm an ITAR violation? :P
<awygle> >> .co.uk
<rqou> it doesn't have the necessary "if" statement :P
<rqou> ah
<pie_> whitequark, i have something with usb powered type b, i thought they just made it up or something
<pie_> so apparently thats actually a standard thing..
<implr> awygle: that's why I thought about GLONASS, as Russia doesn't have a history of caring a lot about those things
<rqou> but last time we were talking about how i can't just go to Europe and hax itar firmware restrictions
<rqou> that seems silly
<pie_> rqou, why cant you?
<pie_> does being a us citizen make it an overseas crime or somehting
<awygle> pie_: if he already knows something ITAR-y and discloses it to a foreign citizen (no matter where), it's a violation
<pie_> awygle, what does knows mean
<awygle> if he didn't know it beforehand, and had no prior exposure, he might be OK, but realistically if the gov't got mad they'd lock him up anyway
<pie_> yeah ofc >_>
<pie_> laws only matter if youre a normal person lol
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<rqou> does declaring "ITAR: no" count as knowledge of anything ITAR-y?
<rqou> :P
<rqou> and yes, laws only matter to normal people
<pie_> as in, you know, us.
<rqou> solution: earn a ton of money so that you become the law instead
<pie_> being leet haxors isnt enough of a force multiplier
<jn__> you need a lawsuite offload engine
<rqou> ##opennuke when? :P :P :P
<awygle> speaking of, does anyone else in this channel unironically love the movie hackers?
<jn__> aka team of lawyers
<lain> awygle: yes
<awygle> lain: thank you for validating me
<lain> that movie is my reason for existing :P
* pie_ meanwhile checking off getting added to more watchlists
<awygle> it's so goddamn good
<rqou> pie_: hey, it was azonenberg that wanted to build an ultracentrifuge
<jn__> awygle: especially the soundtrack
<awygle> whenever i walk in wet from the rain i always tell people that the pool on the roof sprang a leak and nobody ever gets it :(
<lain> awygle: hahahaha
<rqou> just to possibly-violate much more mundane rules about distilling ethanol
<pie_> rqou, azonenberg only settles for the best
<lain> anyone have xilinx ise command line experience, specifically calling xst? question is: if I specify -ofn bluh.log, will it still output messages to the console as well as the log file?
<rqou> lain: um, just try it lol? :P
<pie_> i don talways drink, but when i do, it better be isotopically pure ethanol
<lain> rqou: waiting eons for the ISE download
<awygle> and pie_ was never heard from again
<rqou> pie_: apparently no, you don't want that
<rqou> iirc you want c14 in your ethanol to prove that it isn't industrial ethanol
<jn__> pie_: deuterium methanol
<lain> I think there's a squirrel in the attic
<pie_> wut
<lain> this is bothersome.
<pie_> <rqou> iirc you want c14 in your ethanol to prove that it isn't industrial ethanol
<pie_> <jn__> pie_: deuterium methanol
<pie_> <lain> I think there's a squirrel in the attic
<pie_> whoops
<lain> lol
<rqou> jn__: you joke, but toluene-D6 is actually a thing
<pie_> rqou, industrial ethanol is isotopically pure?
<awygle> muon-accelerated fusion when
<pie_> why would you want to prove that its not industrial
<pie_> awygle, add more cats
<lain> things that fuel my rage: move the scroll wheel one click upward, then one click back down. the document is in a different position than where it started. nothing is sacred.
<awygle> *laughter* *sobbing*
<pie_> lain, i feel like the world is worse for you having said that
<lain> :3
<awygle> kicad is bad but at least when i place a pin it doesn't move my mouse for me for no reason
<pie_> how could you spread such suffering
<awygle> like altium does
<lain> awygle: ugh what.
<lain> that sounds awful
<awygle> lain: it doesn't even move it down one grid space, which would be sensible. it moves it from the "live" end of the pin to the "dead" end
<pie_> unrelated, i absolutely love how lively the channel has been lately
<lain> awygle: that's just bizarre :|
<awygle> meaning you have to go left one pin length and down one grid length to get where you want to be next
<rqou> pie_: ok, apparently most industrial ethanol comes from petroleum
<rqou> which no longer has c14
<rqou> and you don't want to consume this because of potential impurities
<rqou> (well, "don't want to consume" more than the part where ethanol is already a poison :P )
<pie_> ?evaporation distillation? (dunno what its called) is able to separate carbon isotopes? neat.
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<pie_> well i suppose its an unfair assumption that that the part of the process that does that
<awygle> pie_: petroleum is old
<awygle> the C14 decayed
<awygle> is my understanding
<pie_> o.
<rqou> also, an absolutely ridiculous amount of o-chem is fueled by petroleum products
<pie_> yep
<rqou> did you know that modern synthetic vanillin is also now a petroleum product?
<rqou> i always thought it was made from lignin
<rqou> which was a byproduct of paper manufacturing
<rqou> but (iirc) they managed to make paper manufacturing more efficient
<rqou> so lignin got more expensive while petroleum products got cheaper
<pie_> so whats going to suck more, running out of gasoline or running out of organic chem precursors
<rqou> chemical feedstocks for sure
<pie_> thats what i thought
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<pie_> (conjecture for the sake of irony i suppose0
<awygle> the way kicad stores trapezoids is nuts
<pie_> but is how it stores nuts trapezoids?
* pie_ leaves
<Ultrasauce> fractional distillation is the term you're looking for pie_
<pie_> Ultrasauce, yeah thanks
<awygle> instead of just storing four corners it stores "at", "size", and "rect_delta", or, "how much not like a rectangle is this"
<rqou> wat
<Ultrasauce> just one process of *thousands* in petroleum processing though...great wikihole to fall down
<pie_> coordinate systems pls
<rqou> Ultrasauce: what part of the process involves "blow up your <strike>employees</strike>contractors"?
<pie_> Ultrasauce, i usually forget that at least only almost all all of chemistry is petroleum chemistry :P
<Ultrasauce> i would imagine several of them
<pie_> rqou, gotta recycle
<rqou> recycle?
<pie_> from ashes to ashes, dust to dust
<rqou> lol
* rqou puts self, pie_ on another watchlist
<pie_> who watches the watchlist watchers
<Ultrasauce> soilent
<sorear> rqou: no option for New England ?
<rqou> New England?
<rqou> ooh awygle i think i have an idea why kicad does that
<pie_> Ultrasauce, terrible :P
<awygle> rqou: y?
<Ultrasauce> i try
<rqou> does this encoding not allow for degenerate shapes?
<rqou> because storing the four corners can lead to non-convex shapes, self-intersecting shapes, etc.
<pie_> maybe you could if rect_delta is big enough
<rqou> but maybe this way prevents that?
<awygle> yeah that is true
<awygle> although the only real degenerates are "three or four points are colinear" which should be easy to test for
<rqou> inb4 cr1901_modern or somebody says something along the lines of "quads > tris"
<rqou> awygle: are you sure? :P
<awygle> the rest are just "pain-in-the-ass shapes" :P
<rqou> floating point FTW :P
<awygle> ugh why can't math just math lol
<pie_> i dont want to think about floats. ever.
<sorear> rqou: 19:45 lets vote
<rqou> pie_: don't worry, kicad _also_ uses integer nanometers in various other places
<rqou> sorear: ooh that
<awygle> better that than nanoinches
<rqou> sorry, not enough people here have made it obvious that they're in new england :P
<pie_> awygle, jesus christ
<pie_> nanoinches
<pie_> thats disgusting
<pie_> xD
<rqou> hey, we already have mils/thous
<lain> why does it even have a trapezoid type. why not just use polygons?
<sorear> Hopefully I’m not the only one
<rqou> sorear: cr1901_modern is in NJ
<rqou> not quite the same though
<awygle> lain: pads, i guess? you can't have arbitrary polygon pads but you can have trapezoids
<rqou> wtf
<rqou> i've never seen a trapezoidal pad
<rqou> what's the point of that?
<rqou> pin1?
<lain> I hate that packages don't allow arbitrary polygon pads :P
<awygle> rqou: things like X2SONs
<lain> PADS (as in the Mentor Graphics product) allows this, but in a roundabout manner
<sorear> (MA)
<rqou> TI wtf r u doin?
<awygle> in ur base makin u sad
<lain> rqou: I don't see anything wrong with integer nanometers tbh
<rqou> lain: no it's fine
<rqou> better than having float-related issues tbh
<lain> exactly
<awygle> yeah integer nanometers is probably the least evil. it properly converts to inches, even
<rqou> although kicad emits gerbers in nm too
<rqou> which confuses some other tools
<pie_> ok fine i will concede on nanoinches
<lain> I chose integer nanometers for one of the EDA suites I started writing ages ago specifically because 1/ avoids floating point issues, and 2/ nicely converts to non-metric
<rqou> awygle: iirc that's actually yet another reason why kicad is internally nm
<rqou> lain: yeah
<pie_> lain, you wrote nanomters, how does that (2)
<awygle> pie_: 254 nm == 1e-5 inches
<Ultrasauce> how are we gonna lay out our gamma ray photonics circuits then
<pie_> huh.
<rqou> Ultrasauce: use a tool designed for ICs and not PCBs? :P
<pie_> Ultrasauce, what is that sub nanometer?
<awygle> nm is also something like four OOM smaller than the best pcb resolution you can buy
<awygle> https://i.imgur.com/G0tPaHX.jpg why am i at work today
<lain> and if I were extending things to silicon I would just use integer picometers or something :P
<lain> awygle: yeah it's beautiful out
<rqou> awygle: why are you at work?
<lain> I should sit outside
<awygle> (that's Deception Pass, not that far from work)
<rqou> awygle: you can't even post catpix :P
<lain> but the bugs are distracting
<rqou> lain do you also have a cat? i don't remember
<lain> rqou: nope, but I want one
<rqou> hmm random thought: how feasible is a DIY ghetto-NMR?
<rqou> bofh_?
<rqou> what?!
<Ultrasauce> mmmhm
<rqou> i can "just" buy high temperature superconductor?
<rqou> "In last two years we got more that ten customers"
<rqou> um...
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<Ultrasauce> yeah idk if its legit, just in my pile of projects-i'll-never-get-around-to
<awygle> okay but how low is low tho
<Ultrasauce> high temperature = LN2
<awygle> "SuperPower 2G HTS Wire is customized to meet unique requirements of multiple applications" okay one or more of these words does not mean what this copywriter thinks it does
<rqou> awygle: btw you know you can make YBCO in your garage right?
<awygle> rqou: i don't have a garage
<rqou> lol
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<rqou> #justmillenialthings :P
<awygle> but can you make PZT in your garage?
<rqou> how is PZT actually made?
<awygle> zero clue
<rqou> i assume it's more complicated than just sputtering?
<awygle> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8302372/ i am super hopeful for this research to come to something someday
<rqou> oh yeah
<digshadow> rqou: I'd be interested in doing more projects like homemade pzt, let me know if you want to collaborate on anything
<rqou> i think i mentioned last semester i attended a dissertation talk about that
<rqou> digshadow: sure, but i have no idea how this would work lol
<digshadow> I'd like to reproduce that home made IC thing in particular
<digshadow> if its possible with my equipment, once he publishes his writeup
<rqou> i want to do that too
<rqou> but E_TOO_MUCH_SCHOOL
<digshadow> self.flunk_out()?
<rqou> also azonenberg is completely MIA
<digshadow> maybe the woodpeckers finally got to him
<digshadow> or he hammed out one too many walls
<digshadow> hammered
<awygle> "honey, did you ham that wall?"
<digshadow> rqou: btw I did a lot more SEM imaging the last few days
<rqou> of?
<digshadow> XC2064 for ken s
<digshadow> he's reverse engineering it
<awygle> rqou: how PZT is made in 3 steps - "get the stuff", "grind the stuff up", "get the stuff real hot"
<rqou> lol
<awygle> (in other words it's made by calcination of Pb, Zr, and Ti)
<rqou> but you can't make thin films this way?
<awygle> yeah idk how thin film is done
* awygle is a bad chemist
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<rqou> huh it is "just" using sputtering :P
<rqou> awygle: let's start with something much easier like ITO? :P
<rqou> ben krasnow and possibly many other hobbyists have gotten that working
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<pie_> basic sputtering isnt actually hard
<pie_> (afaik?)
<pie_> quality is prob a differnt question :P
<rqou> basic sputtering is indeed not hard
<rqou> hence ITO will probably work easily
<rqou> "semiconductor-grade" is probably much much harder
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<pie_> we have an expression in hungarian
<pie_> you cant build a castle out of shit
<pie_> i respectfully disagree, however its definitely harder
<pie_> xD
<rqou> tell that to silicon valley's "worse is better" :P
<pie_> meh
<awygle> also PZT has lead oxides in it which apparently have significant vapor pressure at calcination temperatures?
<awygle> idk how hot sputtering gets but i'd guess "hot"
<awygle> so apparently you can lose lead by mistake
<rqou> but but but *mumbles something about mean free path*
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<Ultrasauce> dung is a very common component in adobe!
<rqou> is that why flash player is so buggy? :P
<Ultrasauce> yes their development model also consists of shit and mud bricks
<pie_> omg
<awygle> having grown up in the American southwest I often forget that other people don't necessarily know about adobe and weren't read the Three Little Javelinas as kids
<awygle> on the other hand, what is snow
<rqou> i grew up in the bay area, so apparently everything here is made up of capital, NIMBYism, minimum viable products, and racism
<awygle> racism is everywhere, sadly
<awygle> or at the very least it was quite prevalent in the southwest as well
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<pie_> omg @ Adobe being full of shit :P
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<qu1j0t3> not news
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