<whitequark> rqou: lol topor
<whitequark> the cool thing about topor is how it reduces crosstalk
<rqou> yeah i guess :P
nrossi has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
pointfree1 has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
AlexDaniel` has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
anuejn has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
jfng has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
sielicki has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
indefini has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
knielsen has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
eightdot has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
X-Scale has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
renze has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
renze has joined ##openfpga
knielsen has joined ##openfpga
eightdot has joined ##openfpga
<gruetzkopf> his highrise apparently has 120/208 threephase
X-Scale has joined ##openfpga
RaivisR has joined ##openfpga
m_w has quit [Quit: Leaving]
Ultrasauce has joined ##openfpga
digshadow has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
digshadow has joined ##openfpga
<whitequark> rqou: "欧式机箱"
<rqou> heh
<rqou> makes sense
rohitksingh_work has joined ##openfpga
pie_ has joined ##openfpga
rohitksingh_work has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<cyrozap> whitequark: I just noticed your Glasgow-JTAG project. If I might make a suggestion, there are these nice plastic enclosures on AliExpress that are eerily similar to the ones SEGGER uses for their J-Links (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/instrument-housing-case-pcb-enclosure-6-pcs-102-52-26mm-electrical-junction-box-control-box-electronic/32311886893.html), so if you need an enclosure for your project,
<cyrozap> you might want to design the board to fit that. At least if you don't, I probably will (eventually) :)
rohitksingh_work has joined ##openfpga
anuejn has joined ##openfpga
pie_ has quit [Write error: Connection reset by peer]
jfng has joined ##openfpga
rohitksingh has joined ##openfpga
pointfree1 has joined ##openfpga
sielicki has joined ##openfpga
nrossi has joined ##openfpga
AlexDaniel` has joined ##openfpga
indefini has joined ##openfpga
rohitksingh has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
<marcan> rqou: I was surprised they'd route two phases to one outlet box
<rqou> that's pretty common in newer construction in the US
eightdot has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
<rqou> only in e.g. kitchens
<marcan> even for single-phase outlets?
<rqou> the idea is that people have a lot of power hungry gadgets so they don't want overloads
<marcan> ah
<marcan> makes sense
<rqou> e.g. toasters, blenders, etc.
<marcan> right
<rqou> not like the clusterf*ck in my apartment
<rqou> :P
<rqou> idk how long you've been lurking here, but...
<rqou> marcan: this should get you started: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lakireddy_Bali_Reddy :P
<marcan> meanwhile in my apartment in japan almost everything is on a single 100V 20A circuit and no earth anywhere except that one outlet in the kitchen
<marcan> wheee
<marcan> I'm really tempted to crawl up into the crawlspace above the ceiling and run a ground wire without telling my landlord
<marcan> right now my entire workshop is all grounded.... together.
<marcan> I *think* it might eventually make it to a real ground via the antenna coax.
<marcan> maybe.
<marcan> rqou: what am I reading?
<rqou> that's my landlord :P
<marcan> lol
<rqou> well, not him directly
<rqou> but you probably get the idea :P
<marcan> fun
<marcan> I discovered the other day that I can run two heaters and an idle Threadripper, but if I run mprime it trips the breaker :p
<rqou> the breaker in this apartment used to rip ~every day
<rqou> it's better now that it's not cold and the other housemates aren't running space heaters
<rqou> i used to have a strategy of "you can microwave up to 30 seconds at a time before the breaker will trip and you will have to reset it"
<marcan> lol
<awygle> I can't believe I haven't tripped one yet
<awygle> Despite my laser printer dimming all my lights when it runs
<marcan> at least the power in my apartment is stable; I didn't have any outages or brownouts in 3 years
<marcan> eventually there was a brief brownount that reset my server so I got a UPS :P
<rqou> we have a "smart grid" here
<rqou> during a round of breaker tripping a while back a bunch of us all bought UPSs :P
<rqou> you can improve power budget by temporarily unplugging some of them :P
<marcan> lol
<marcan> I got a small one that only runs my home server and networking gear
<marcan> and everything else is run off a couple of switched power strips, so when I leave for a trip I can just shut down everything else
<azonenberg> yeah i am very much looking forward to getting a solid power infrastructure at the new place
<azonenberg> Also, i am going to be putting actual grounding connections in at my workbenches
<awygle> I wonder if I could get my landlord to upgrade me to 20A circuits lol
<azonenberg> you... don't have 20A circuits?
<awygle> I have a bunch of 15A iirc
<azonenberg> not even in the kitchen?
<cr1901_modern> Pretty sure electrical code mandates the bathroom/kitchen has to support 20A?
<awygle> Kitchen is 20A
<azonenberg> Code has required the ktichen/dining room area to have two "small appliance branch circuits" for coffee makers, microwaves, etc
<azonenberg> for quite some time
<azonenberg> even if there's no separate dining room two circuits are required
<cr1901_modern> Why did I just google "15a to 20a adapter"? Why are there results for this?
<azonenberg> cr1901_modern: to plug a 20a appliance into a 15a outlet on a 20a circuit?
<azonenberg> same reason there are adapters to plug grounded appliances into 2-prong outlets
<cr1901_modern> Why wouldn't the 20a outlet have the correct keying?
<azonenberg> Same reason you can get extension cords with male plugs on both ends
<Ultrasauce> fire is a very important technology
<cr1901_modern> Oh...
<azonenberg> NEC allows you to put 15A receptacles on a 20A circuit
<awygle> Hm so I checked and the bedroom and living room are 15A, kitchen and bathroom are 20A as you'd expect
<cr1901_modern> >Same reason you can get extension cords with male plugs on both ends
<cr1901_modern> err...
<awygle> But there's not a separate breaker for the office
<azonenberg> cr1901_modern: re 15a outlets on 20a circuits, this is because very often you have many low-power things on one circuit
<azonenberg> no one plug is allowed to pull >15
<azonenberg> but the wiring is rated for 20 and the circuit can supply 20 to the aggregate of all plug loads
<azonenberg> Re male-male extension cords the common use case is backfeeding a wall circuit from a generator
<Ultrasauce> and electrocuting linesmen
<azonenberg> violates so many parts of the code i can't even count, as well as common sense
<azonenberg> But they exist because there's market demand from idiots who don't understand why the requirement is there
<cr1901_modern> I wouldn't dare try something like that
<rqou> edison screw to 2-prong adapters are still sold at the hardware store here
<azonenberg> You know better, a lot of people don't
<rqou> this might give you a sense of how ancient/shitty the wiring tends to be here
<marcan> Yodobashi Camera carries USB A-A and B-B couplers
<awygle> I wonder if I can solve my printer problem by turning off the lights in the bedroom or something
<marcan> they make me cringe every time I walk past that aisle
<marcan> as in male to male and female to female
<azonenberg> marcan: ...
<azonenberg> another good one i saw was a usb Y connector
<azonenberg> usb-a female to 2x usb-a male
<azonenberg> no hub
<marcan> was one of the male sides power only?
<marcan> if so that... makes *some* sense
<azonenberg> my understanding is that it didn't have a data connection at all
<marcan> ah
<azonenberg> it was just to pull 1A from two ports
<marcan> then yeah
<marcan> I mean it's evil
<marcan> but not A-A cable evil
<azonenberg> lol true
<Ultrasauce> I have an A-A, it came with a device that is powered by a usb-A port for some inane reason
<marcan> I remember learned about reflections and stubs when I soldered a female A into my Xbox 1 (original) controller's memory card port
<marcan> (which are just USB)
<marcan> the female port worked fine but the memory card slot stopped working
<azonenberg> lol
<marcan> Ultrasauce: yeah, I've seen them in two places commonly
<marcan> USB3.0 portable drives before Type C was a thing, because microUSB3 is horrible and B is massive and wouldn't fit on a slim drive
<marcan> and... laptop fan cooler stands
<marcan> for some inexplicable reason they tend to have two female A ports wired together
<marcan> and come with an A-A cable
<azonenberg> the Y cable i saw was a laptop cooler
FabM_cave is now known as FabM
eightdot has joined ##openfpga
<G33KatWork> Honest question: I never get why the US uses 2 phases for connecting houses to the grid compared to europe's three phases. Are there any advantages? So far, I can really only think about disadvantages
<rqou> legacy?
<azonenberg> G33KatWork: we dont have two phases
<azonenberg> we have one phase
<azonenberg> The two legs are phase aligned 240V apart with a center tap
<G33KatWork> In German homes I can get 3 phases with 230V at 32 Amps. I can run anything I want
<G33KatWork> yeah, okay
<azonenberg> So 240V appliances run leg-to-leg
<azonenberg> Single phases run leg to tap
<azonenberg> 120V appliances*
<azonenberg> Three-phase does exist in the US but is almost unheard of in residential environments
<G33KatWork> the two phase are in-phase, right?
<azonenberg> Yes
<azonenberg> The pole transformer tkaes in ~10 kV and spits out 240V with a center tap that's earthed
<azonenberg> So both legs are 120Vrms above/below earth
<azonenberg> all long-range power distribution is 3-phase but the transformer feeding a house/group of houses is typically only fed by one phase
<azonenberg> Generally only commercial buildings get more than one phase fed to them
<G33KatWork> right. but why? Only legacy reasons?
<azonenberg> Probably because nearly everything is designed to run at 120V
<azonenberg> and a 120V 20A circuit is enough to run almost anything you'd normally want to plug in (i.e. ~2 kW max)
<azonenberg> anything bigger than that is normally going to be hard wired infrastructure, like a furnace
<azonenberg> or oven
<azonenberg> and those get fed by 240
<azonenberg> The only stuff that is really built for 3-phase here is large motors on machine tools and other industrial-type stuff
<azonenberg> Which aren't really intended for home use
<marcan> well you *could* have 120V three-phase (208V phase to phase) instead of split-phase
<azonenberg> i feel like that exists somewhere
<marcan> fwiw in Spain the usual arrangement is single homes are wired to one phase of a three-phase transformer
<marcan> but you can get three-phase service if you want
<marcan> (it just costs more)
<azonenberg> yeah i mean if i asked the utility
<G33KatWork> I can think of two appliances right away in German homes that are connected to three phase power: flow heaters for showers (if you don't heat water using your furnace) and the oven in the kitchen
<G33KatWork> add an electric car and you have 3
<azonenberg> they'd probably be willing to trench a line to me and run two more phases if i asked
<G33KatWork> add a welding machine in the garage: 4
<azonenberg> it's just not common
<marcan> ah, yeah, electric flow heaters aren't much of a thing in spain
<marcan> it's mostly gas
<azonenberg> G33KatWork: yeah all of those are normally single phase 240 here
<marcan> or accumulators
<azonenberg> Here in the US i'd say ~half of stuff is gas
<azonenberg> The rest is electric
<marcan> ovens run fine on a single phase
<azonenberg> Our water heater is 240V single phase
<azonenberg> As is our oven
<rqou> whee, lab report submitted with 8 minutes to spare!
<G33KatWork> yeah, you can connect ovens on a single phase. I've just never seen it done :D
<rqou> also, why does "turn my goddamn jupyter notebook into a pdf" never freaking work?
<marcan> how does a three-phase oven work? different elements on different phases?
<G33KatWork> yeah
<rqou> btw, bonus fun: this lab report is for a class on power electronics :P
<marcan> I have a friend to gets three-phase service in spain, but he also collects mainframes
<rqou> marcan: "high-leg delta" is another fun US-ism
<marcan> oh I recently learnd about that one
<marcan> that is totally fucked up
<awygle> Flow heaters are so great
<marcan> *learned
<rqou> meanwhile a fun DE-ism is 16.7 Hz AC for railways
<marcan> lol
<marcan> how big are *those* transformers?
<rqou> lolol
<azonenberg> Unrelated
<rqou> gruetzkopf might know?
<azonenberg> Why does TI love quarternary strap pins?
<azonenberg> like. 2 bits per strap
<rqou> example?
<marcan> lol
<marcan> I've never seen that
<azonenberg> INA226 strap pins can be strapped to Vdd, Vss, SDA, or SCL
<rqou> what
<marcan> ahaha
<marcan> nice
<G33KatWork> that's a neat video about the german/european power grid: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OBYzvkY2-eA
<azonenberg> the ethernet PHY i'm looking at can be strapped to ground, 0.165*vccio, 0.255*vccio, 0.783*vccio nominal
<rqou> hey, because we have shitty grids here we can't get frequency drifts just because Serbia and Kosovo got mad at each other :P
<marcan> why do I feel the analog comparators required to implement that don't sound like a great idea
<marcan> the SDA or SCL thing I can see, that's just some simple bootstrap logic
<marcan> then again ethernet PHYs are analog anyway
<rqou> G33KatWork: although i don't think anybody can beat the wtf level of japan's grid with its HVDC links/frequency converters
<marcan> 50Hz? 60Hz? why not both!
<marcan> * make sure you buy appliances for your side of the country
<marcan> legacy systems are great
<rqou> also you guys apparently have a slightly lower nominal voltage than most other people?
<G33KatWork> rqou: https://bahnblogstelleblog.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/db142796.jpg?w=1200 that should be a Deutsche Bahn power substation
<marcan> 100V nominal, yes
<rqou> G33KatWork: that looks normal? is that a 16.7 Hz one or a 50 Hz one?
<marcan> I've heard some fun stories of "100V-240V" power supplies failing in Japan, then they contacted the chinese manufacturer
<marcan> "oh you want the *Japan* version"
<marcan> (still says 100V-240V, but *actually* works at 100V)
<G33KatWork> rqou: also there are HVDC links between france and britain: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HVDC_Cross-Channel
<rqou> wait, the UK isn't synced?
<marcan> nope
<marcan> Tom Scott did a video on that recently
<marcan> Europe fell out of sync but UK was fine
<rqou> oh wow 2000 MW HVDC
<rqou> meanwhile the US has fun things like texas having their own power grid
<rqou> this allows them to not be required to follow certain federal regulations
<rqou> since because they're not exporting electricity they are not participating in interstate commerce
<rqou> "this is very texas"
<G33KatWork> holy shit
<rqou> power electronics is "fun"
<rqou> although they're nowhere near that kind of scale, SiC/GaN devices are pretty neat too
<rqou> you can get e.g. TO220 devices that handle way more power than you would expect
indy has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
indy has joined ##openfpga
bitd has joined ##openfpga
pie_ has joined ##openfpga
pie_ has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
pie_ has joined ##openfpga
pie_ has quit [Quit: Leaving]
<whitequark> awygle: poke
<whitequark> marcan: four-level staps are pretty normal these days
<whitequark> i mean you don't even need a proper comparator
<whitequark> just a few pass transistors biased to different voltage
<whitequark> azonenberg: poke
<whitequark> oh it's 4am
indy has quit [Quit: ZNC - http://znc.sourceforge.net]
indy has joined ##openfpga
X-Scale has quit [Quit: HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Now with extra fish!]
pie_ has joined ##openfpga
FabM has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
FabM has joined ##openfpga
rohitksingh_work has quit [Read error: Connection reset by peer]
<azonenberg> whitequark: i'm awake actually
<azonenberg> my schedule is wrecked :p
<azonenberg> i woke up at 2100 local time
<q3k> nice
<azonenberg> Hopefully i can stay awake until the end of the work day
<azonenberg> Lol
<q3k> i'm also slowly drifting to the west
<q3k> currently somewhere on the east coast of the US
<G33KatWork> that one direction from UTC+9 over to the us west coast is easy
<G33KatWork> give me a day
<G33KatWork> eh. from UTC+2 to the us west coast
<G33KatWork> but back takes me a week
<q3k> yep
<q3k> when I physically fly east I usually just abuse alcohol on the first evening I'm there
<q3k> if I do it just right, I'm perfect the next day (save for the minor hangover effects which are still better than being jetlagged to hell and back)
<q3k> otherwise it's pure misery for a week
m_w has joined ##openfpga
rohitksingh has joined ##openfpga
SpaceCoaster has joined ##openfpga
rohitksingh has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
m_w has quit [Quit: leaving]
<whitequark> azonenberg: lol and I thought you had your shit together
<whitequark> and it's just me who has these schedule issues
<Ultrasauce> why would anyone have their shit together
<whitequark> HA
<Ultrasauce> I came into the office at 12am. nobody around = best time for getting stuff done
<Ultrasauce> or at least that's my excuse for having slept all day
<whitequark> Ultrasauce: 12am is 0000 or 1200?
<whitequark> fuck 12h time
<Ultrasauce> 0000
<jn__> 12am is such an ugly edge case
<whitequark> azonenberg: so, you mentioned you could take a look at the board
<whitequark> any spare time?
<jn__> it *should* clearly be 11am + 1h, but it isn't :{
<Ultrasauce> I'm glad I can still shitpost-by-proxy since I went read only on birdsite
<whitequark> speaking of which it went down *exactly* as I was going to post some progress on the board
<Ultrasauce> it's kind of amazing how many outages they've managed to have lately
<awygle> whitequark: good unilateral morning
rohitksingh has joined ##openfpga
<whitequark> awygle: lemme commit
kuldeep has quit [Ping timeout: 265 seconds]
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: no still busy
<azonenberg_work> about to head out to $dayjob :p
ZipCPU has quit [Ping timeout: 240 seconds]
<awygle> I am also headed to work but I will take a look while compiling or in useless meetings
azonenberg_work has quit [Ping timeout: 255 seconds]
ZipCPU has joined ##openfpga
<openfpga-github> [Glasgow-JTAG] whitequark pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow-JTAG/commit/259b618f95f72dfd48e759527cc62f6abea65069
<openfpga-github> Glasgow-JTAG/master 259b618 whitequark: Finish layout.
kuldeep has joined ##openfpga
azonenberg_work has joined ##openfpga
mumptai has joined ##openfpga
rohitksingh has quit [Quit: Leaving.]
digshadow has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
digshadow has joined ##openfpga
Lord_Nightmare has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
Lord_Nightmare has joined ##openfpga
nats` has joined ##openfpga
<whitequark> ha, found first actual kicad library bug
<whitequark> EN pin polarity inverted on a regulator
<whitequark> not counting the one bug awygle introduced into it :P
<awygle> whitequark: mean :p
<Ultrasauce> anyone in the mood for some righteous indignation?
<whitequark> always
<whitequark> "At the family's request, CBC News is granting him anonymity because of his hope the charge will be dropped and his reputation preserved.
<whitequark> wow, some decency from journalists
<Ultrasauce> it's annoying because I want to hire him now
<Ultrasauce> anyway yeah, govt publishes a bunch of unredacted documents on a web portal, accessible by good ol' GETs
<Ultrasauce> kid scrapes it, gets charged for being an evil hacker
nats` has left ##openfpga [##openfpga]
<Ultrasauce> what's missing from the article is there's a provincial law mandating tight controls on the dissemination of personal information, and it has teeth
<pie_> Ultrasauce, i dunno, tell the journalists you want to offer him a job? :P
* whitequark thinks
<whitequark> isn't "open collector" implicitly referring to npn transistors?
<Ultrasauce> so does vcc
<whitequark> indeed
<whitequark> that's
<whitequark> that's pretty dumb
<whitequark> really, most of our terminology related to transistors is shit
<Ultrasauce> the category of 'weird vestigial conventions in ee' is pretty big
<whitequark> and "source" and "drain" are dumb
<whitequark> and current flowing in the opposite direction of electrons
* whitequark is fuming
* whitequark can be used to decap chips
<pie_> Ultrasauce, shouldnt responsibility be on the government for publicly posting said files
<Ultrasauce> yes which is why they pressured the police to trash the kid's house and charge him
* pie_ filters whitequark through a basic gas scrubber
<whitequark> lol
<pie_> (is that what theyre called in english? couldnt wiki it)
<whitequark> I think
<whitequark> but it's a bit ambiguous
<whitequark> I would call it an "acid gas scrubber"
<Ultrasauce> sometimes you gotta pull out all the stops and go for the advanced gas scrubber
<pie_> we call what im thinking of a "gas washer"
<pie_> heh
<whitequark> gas scrubber is also a term
<pie_> (that being a literal translation)
<pie_> Ultrasauce, way to pull a streisand effect
<Ultrasauce> yeah this is going to make waves
<pie_> on the other hand, maybe they were able to delete everything off his computer
<pie_> too bad he didnt distribute any copies
<pie_> (probably)
<pie_> on the other hand, $privacy, so idk
bitd has quit [Remote host closed the connection]
<awygle> yeah i'm annoyed about the "open collector" thing
<awygle> because it's inaccurate but also irrelevant
<Ultrasauce> I can't really think of a better name offhand
<Ultrasauce> pull driver? quarter bridge?
<awygle> well it's innacurate half the time
<awygle> because half the time it's open drain
<awygle> but also, who cares
<awygle> but also, there's no technology-independent term like "pull down driver"
<Ultrasauce> actually nevermind I think quarter bridge is pretty good
* awygle respectfully disagrees
<awygle> i like pull driver better
<Ultrasauce> it's half of a half-bridge, come on
<awygle> yeah i get it but it has tons of other applications
<whitequark> why not just say "pull down driver"
<azonenberg_work> awygle: yeah "open drain" is the cmos term but that is mos-specific
<awygle> pull down driver is good but it's not standard :/
<pie_> make a new standard
<awygle> #TeamPullDownDriver
<pie_> UP THE ECHELON
<Ultrasauce> quarter-bridge is generalizable to other fractions
<Ultrasauce> don't ask me what an eighth-bridge is but it's there for the taking
<whitequark> wat
<awygle> an eighth-bridge is a diode
<awygle> a 16th-bridge is a doped region of silicon
<azonenberg_work> no it's a pad driver with less fingers
<azonenberg_work> :p
<pie_> weed is measured in eiths of an ounce right
<awygle> a 32nd-bridge is either P, N, or Si
<awygle> .... or just pretend that i used actual dopants there like my brain intended to
<awygle> boron and uh... the other one. phosphorus?
<whitequark> III-V
<Ultrasauce> pfh what is this, 1970?
<awygle> woo i was thinking of phosphorus
<pie_> so sapphire substrate or go home or something
<azonenberg_work> awygle: B, P, and As are all common dopants for silicon
<whitequark> can you use nitrogen
<awygle> As, Ge, Al, ga, In are the other ones i've heard of
<azonenberg_work> never heard of Ge/Al/Ga/In for doping Si
<azonenberg_work> As is very common for wells and doped wafers
<pie_> Gallium Arsenide sounds familiar for whatever reason
<awygle> GaAs is a III-V semiconductor
<azonenberg_work> yeah so for photonics
<awygle> different thing
<azonenberg_work> i'm thinking about CMOS
<awygle> (iirc)
* awygle has mentally shortcut GaAs as "shitty GaN"
<whitequark> oh right GaN
<awygle> GaN is super cool
<awygle> it's in all kinds of great stuff
clifford has quit [Ping timeout: 260 seconds]
* jn__ expanded "shitty GaN" as "shitty generative adversarial network"
<pie_> yeh me too i have no idea what that is
<awygle> gallium nitride
<pie_> The Little GaN That Can
<awygle> also a III-V semiconductor
<awygle> really good for RF
<awygle> really radiation resistant
<awygle> recently expanded to power electronics
<felix_> hmm, are the current footprints in kicad useable nowadays or would it be better to just create everything from scratch?
<pie_> #BoronPhosphorIsForNoobs
<awygle> it would be better to use them, validate them carefully, and push any necessary changes upstread :p
<felix_> the design has mostly 0402 passives, a 1mm pitch a7 and some qfns
<felix_> ok
<awygle> whitequark and i had decent success i would say. only one real defect (plus one i put there myself)
<qu1j0t3> wow
<felix_> yeah, i always validate components i didn't create and let someone else validate components i created
<whitequark> lol
<awygle> a good policy
<whitequark> i'm saying go for kicad
<whitequark> i like their guidelines, the componets are quite consistent, if at times a bit quirky
<whitequark> you get nice stuff like 3d models too
<awygle> i don't like their guidelines very much but i do appreciate their rigor in enforcement
<whitequark> do you not?
<awygle> there's quite a few things i'd change
<whitequark> EP numbered 0, yes
<whitequark> any others
<awygle> don't stack pins
<whitequark> well
<whitequark> that's just a technical limitation of kicad?
<whitequark> it's shitty and stupid but it's not a *guideline* issue per se
<awygle> i would put as many pins as there are pins
<awygle> personally
<awygle> no stacking and no multiple-connection
<whitequark> that seems like a waste of space tbh
<pie_> stacking = multifunction?
<awygle> it helps for things like decoupling if i can look at the schematic and say "ah, 3 power pins, 6 caps, we're good"
<whitequark> you wouldn't decouple them individually on the schematic anyway
<whitequark> well
<awygle> i would, yes
<whitequark> with a connection to each pin?
<whitequark> never seen anyone do that
<felix_> i probably won't create 3d models and won't try to upstream the stuff i created; my only interaction with the kicad maintainer was a rather unpleasant experience...
<awygle> well, not exactly, i mean all the pins are shorted together
<whitequark> felix_: the old maintainer doesn't work on kicad anymore
<whitequark> the new people are very nice
<awygle> but i do locate them such that you can tell what's connected to which pin (and fix the schematic later if i mess that up in the board)
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: i always number my ep "PAD"
<awygle> uh let's see other issues.... i would fix how multiple units are handled (not really a library thing but _becomes_ a library thing because the symbol editor is how it is)
<azonenberg_work> and yes i dont like stacking pins
<felix_> huh, wayne isn't the maintainer any more?! i must have missed that
<azonenberg_work> i want to see them so i can quickly jump back and forth
<whitequark> fortunately not
<whitequark> i strongly suggest trying to upstream stuff
<azonenberg_work> from schematic to layout
<whitequark> you might be frustrated by guidelines but not by assholes
<awygle> ^ this
<awygle> everyone was very nice
<whitequark> which isn't easy to achieve when you basically explain why the entire symbol needs to be redone
<awygle> any frustration involved was something i brought with me
<azonenberg_work> awygle: yeah in my case i just disagree with a lot of their library conventions
<azonenberg_work> the only things i use from the official libs are passive symbols
<azonenberg_work> Because those are simple enough i have nothing to complain about
<awygle> interestingly a lot of the footprint stuff that pissed me off, i later learned was actually in the IPC standard
<awygle> so i learned things
<azonenberg_work> i have my own styles for ICs
<azonenberg_work> what about footprints?
<awygle> like how they indicate Pin 1s
<azonenberg_work> what do they do?
<awygle> or how picky they are about courtyard spacing
<azonenberg_work> (i should start adding courtyards to my components...)
<whitequark> ^ why i use kicad components
<awygle> oh here's one more - package name does not belong on the fab layer
<balrog> whitequark: when did that happen? (Wayne not being maintainer anymore)
<awygle> most of my frustrations with the guidelines were actually frustrations with the text, not the principle. the footprint stuff in particular needs a rewrite for clarity (and for someone to learn the difference between angular ring and pad diameter)
<awygle> azonenberg_work: see the slide in this http://www.ocipcdc.org/archive/What_is_New_in_IPC-7351C_03_11_2015.pdf labeled silkscreen polarity marking
<felix_> well, when i tried to compile kicad for osx (which is a huge pain and i stopped trying after 3 evenings) to work on getting kicad more useable on osx, wayne was like "it's obvious that you're doing that wrong and i should have nuked the script you're trying to use long time ago, because it only causes trouble for me" - no thanks, i won't try to contribute to that project any more...
<balrog> I've been able to compile it on osx recently enough using some script
<balrog> but I usually use the nightlies
<felix_> the touchpad behaviour of the nigtlies maybe 2 years ago was completelyunuseable on osx
<balrog> yeah
<balrog> I had that too :/
<balrog> there's a checkbox in preferences now
<awygle> it's crazy how long IPC-7351C has been in work btw
<azonenberg_work> awygle: eeew
<pie_> (oh wth kicad is open source? somehow i totally missed this. probably because i have done zero pcb work)
<felix_> hmm, maybe i should try the nightlies again now
<azonenberg_work> i dont like the new ipc silk at all
<awygle> i was thinknig of buying a copy but because it's not released and 7351b is so old i didn't bother
<jn__> pie_: i thought that was the main reason to use kicad :)
<whitequark> oh they're actually migrating .sch to sexprs
<whitequark> *finally*
<whitequark> that format is a crime against humanity
<awygle> i thought that was "version 6"
<whitequark> that's in v5 roadmap
<awygle> aka "someday again maybe"
<whitequark> but maybe it's too late
<whitequark> felix_: to be quite frank
<awygle> yeah i'm pretty sure "make eeschema good" got pushed to V6
<whitequark> as someone who has maintained software
<whitequark> that people tried to build for weird platforms in weird ways
<whitequark> "I should just remove that script because it only causes headache" is something I can really sympathize with
<whitequark> but removing the script needs to occur at the same time as unfucking the build
<balrog> the question I'll have if you tell me that is "how do you build for macOS if not with that script?"
<felix_> on osx eagle is really nice (i did multiple layouts with touchpad and no external mouse), but eagle dosn't have a push and shove router and i strnogly dislike the license model
<whitequark> kicad's router is absolutely amazing
<whitequark> well worth coping with its quirks elsewhere
<felix_> well, it was more a "i found out that you need to change this to make it work again with upstream" and not ranting about things not working; i tried to be constructive
<felix_> yep
<awygle> yeah kicad's router isn't bad, it's almost as good as Altium's
<awygle> only a few little things i would like to fix up
<awygle> (in Infinite Time Fantasy Land)
<whitequark> like what?
<whitequark> I find that the loop removal is a bit dumb
<felix_> and the reaction felt a bit like "you're dumb and i don't want to deal with you stuff"; so my motivation to try to make kicad work smoothly under osx dropped to exactly zero
<awygle> i had a problem where pads/vias that were, by visual inspection, clearly connected, still displayed rats until i routed a trace to them manually
<awygle> and also the loop removal is dumb, yes
<awygle> and i don't like how track width is handled (i want to be able to hit 'e' while routing and change my width, not have to go through the DRC, which iirc you do)
<whitequark> balrog: hm no Wayne is still the maintainer
<whitequark> I must have mixed people up
<whitequark> felix_: in any case the library maintainers are completely different from code maintainers
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: yeah dick is the old guy who isnt involved anymore
<whitequark> i guess i'll end up writing code for it at some point and we'll see how that goes
<azonenberg_work> awygle: re the ratlines i've had that bug too
<whitequark> ah there is a patch looks like
<awygle> i successfully submitted a patch to kicad and it was pretty painless
<awygle> but it was a pretty obvious and uninteresting patch
<awygle> so ymmv
<whitequark> overall, i feel like pcbnew is the most polished part of kicad
<whitequark> eeschema is... crufty
<awygle> definitely agreed. and hopefully the eeschema rewrite will happen before $HEATDEATH
<whitequark> "Study ergonomics of various commercial/proprietary PCB applications (when in doubt about any particular UI solution, check how it has been done in a certain proprietary app that is very popular among OSHW folks and do exactly opposite)."
<awygle> i have issues with the library editors too but i have issues with them in _every_ pcb software, idk why that's so hard to get what i would consider "right"
<whitequark> LOL
<whitequark> shots fired
<whitequark> also I miss tighter integration between schematics and layout that eagle had
<awygle> maybe library editors are inherently more personal
<whitequark> manually propagating changes is old
<awygle> whitequark: you're a "schematic and layout more or less simultaneously" person, right?
<whitequark> depends on the circuit but usually yes
<whitequark> looking at a problem from different angles lets me catch more bugs
<awygle> it's interesting because altium has the manually propagate changes button too, and i am a waterfall person, so that doesn't bother me at all
<whitequark> refdes is essentially unchangeable in kicad
<awygle> mm yes, positional reannotation based on the PCB would be great
<felix_> keeping the footprints seperate from the symbols is a good idea, but the how a symbol is connected to a footprint is much better in eagle imho
<whitequark> you can use the "timestamps" option but I tried it a few times and once it fucked up everything
<whitequark> I don't know why so I don't use it anymore
<whitequark> felix_: agreed
<awygle> i have a six page rant about library arrangements but again, nobody's ever really gotten that right as far as i'm concerned
<whitequark> interestingly, eagle lets you just assign several pads to a single symbol pin
<whitequark> and designate pads as NC
<felix_> yep. and how different packages with the same symbol are handeled
<whitequark> so this fixes both stupid things eeschema has in regards to pins
<whitequark> however, if we are to follow awygle and azonenberg_work, this becomes useless
<whitequark> because different packages almost always have different pins
<whitequark> e.g. different amount of power pins
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: yeah it's msotly good for passives
<azonenberg_work> or say soic/tssop versions of a chip
<felix_> sure. but e.g a spi flash in soic8 and soic16 have the same symbol, but different pin numbers. or some microcontroller in different packages with the same number of legs
<azonenberg_work> Re multiple pads on one symbol pin, kicad can let you do that
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: but kicad already handles soic/tssop
<azonenberg_work> i do that routinely for large connectors with multiple shields etc
<whitequark> re multiple pads, yes, by pin stacking
<whitequark> which is extremely dumb
<felix_> only if the pin numbers on the different packages match
<felix_> (on soic/tssop/...)
<whitequark> why is cvpcb even a thing
<whitequark> why can't it just be a part of eeschema
<whitequark> really, can't they just merge eeschema and pcbnew into... kicad
<whitequark> have them built as libraries if you want to keep them embeddable or whatever
<felix_> that wouldn't be unix style though :P
<whitequark> unix is bad
<whitequark> tons of junk kicad places into the project folder is also bad
<whitequark> also, can someone fix the file extensions, they're going mad
<whitequark> .kicad_pcb, .bck, .bak, _autosave-...
<whitequark> wait
<whitequark> kicad currently doesn't have any way to link an object from a footprint library?
<whitequark> it ONLY embeds them?
<whitequark> well that explains a few things
<whitequark> i admit that embedding footprints has some benefits but the fact that dragging refdes actually edits a copy of a footprint is really stupid
<azonenberg_work> no what i meant was
<azonenberg_work> you can have two polygons with one pin number
<whitequark> oh nvm
<azonenberg_work> on a footprint
<whitequark> right
<azonenberg_work> But afaik yes there is no linking, only embedding
<azonenberg_work> this is one of the reasons pcb files get large
<azonenberg_work> re cvpcb, it's a lot more integrated than it used to be
<azonenberg_work> the file extensions are a bit nuts
<whitequark> yes, I've seen that cvpcb got shoehorned quite deeply in
<whitequark> but not deeply enough :P
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: and re ram, lol
<azonenberg_work> i hate buying consumer... anything, now
<azonenberg_work> marketing has jumped the shark
<whitequark> also speaking of things in kicad that suck, symbol/footprint tables
<whitequark> it's not even so much the concept as the implementation
<azonenberg_work> i much prefer to buy from OEM-type suppliers
<whitequark> ugly af dialogs that work slightly differently for symbol/fp/3d
<azonenberg_work> where i know what i'm getting and the product shows up in a boring brown cardboard box
<whitequark> yeah
<whitequark> OEM is life
<whitequark> after getting this supermicro motherboard I'm not going back
<azonenberg_work> i dont want reviews, or related products, or "people who bought this got that"
<whitequark> also, dell laptops are pretty neat
<whitequark> i do want reviews actually
<azonenberg_work> if i want them, i look for them separately
<azonenberg_work> I dont want it on the product page
<whitequark> there are lots of things that seem fine from the specs but are actually shit
<azonenberg_work> i guess it depends on the item but basically
<whitequark> and i want to know if e.g. a case i'm buying will fall apart in a week
<azonenberg_work> digikey is my model of a well designed web store :p
<whitequark> ewww
<azonenberg_work> no frills, no fluff
<gruetzkopf> i'm planning on getting dell
<whitequark> digikey is pretty hard to use
<azonenberg_work> specs, basic parametric search, and that's it
<azonenberg_work> for some passives you do need a wide monitor or lots of scrolling to navigate the filters effectively
<azonenberg_work> but thats not a dealbreaker
<gruetzkopf> https://photos.app.goo.gl/braletlXepH6y3yF3 i hate soldering connectors btw
<whitequark> gruetzkopf: xps13 here
<whitequark> it's very nice
<gruetzkopf> was more looking at the E64x0 series
<whitequark> i have the 4k display model. well worth the money
<whitequark> ah
<gruetzkopf> newest i can afford
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: my new workstation has a supermicro mobo btw
<azonenberg_work> i think i'll probably stick with them for the foreseeable future
<gruetzkopf> weight and volume are not really in my criteria list
<azonenberg_work> no frills, functional, gets the job done
<whitequark> ah
<azonenberg_work> no shark-jumping gaming bs
<whitequark> those are my top priorities :)
<whitequark> weight volume display
clifford has joined ##openfpga
<gruetzkopf> sadly it's almost impossible to get supermicro TR4 stuff atm
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: i got an EVGA motherboard for the m-labs build server
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: most of my old servers have Intel mobos
<azonenberg_work> i think intel is out of the oem mobo business now
<azonenberg_work> but they were straight reference designs
<azonenberg_work> again, no frills
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: despite targeting "enthusiasts" they make pretty good hardware
<azonenberg_work> (this was core2quad era)
<whitequark> and the point here is i *want* a hugely overclocked K CPU
<whitequark> at least 5 GHz
<whitequark> fucking Vivado
<whitequark> i'm going to implement distributed synthesis in migen too
<azonenberg_work> we didnt overclock for this
<azonenberg_work> we went with a dual socket xeon gold... 6144 i think?
<whitequark> yeah that's what i would use if vivado /fucking used more than two cores ever/
<gruetzkopf> most of my hardware is c2d era
<lain> yeah
<azonenberg_work> that was the max single/low count thread performance
<azonenberg_work> that we could find
<whitequark> xeon gold
<azonenberg_work> On a vu9p vivado routinely maxes out 3-4 cores in a build
<lain> you can tell vivado to use I think 4 cores?
<whitequark> lain: we do
<lain> yeah it's still garbage, it's depressing
<whitequark> for most of the build it bottlenecks on two
<azonenberg_work> it seems to actually use all cores for some parts of DRC
<lain> you know, a lot of the reason the synthesis is slow...
<whitequark> yes
<azonenberg_work> Looking at CPU vs wall clock time it averages around 3
<whitequark> but almost all of the time on our designs is spent in p&r
<whitequark> and it doesn't use more than two for that
<lain> the synthesis libraries are all obfuscated using freaking ROP gadgets
<azonenberg_work> But i wanted a second cpu so that i could run two builds at once
<whitequark> lain: what.
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: you didnt know?
<whitequark> the fuck/
<whitequark> no i didn't
<lain> every function call in the synthesis lib uses SSE instructions to create a massive ROP chain and then returns into it
<lain> even syscalls are done via returns
<whitequark> ...
<lain> it's horrendously slow
<lain> they did this to obfuscate the crypto stuff, but as best I could tell, ALL synthesis takes this path
<azonenberg_work> i have to wonder if the PAR is too
<whitequark> lain: can we patch that out
<lain> I wonder how much faster it would be if you could un-ROP it lol
<lain> whitequark: no idea
<azonenberg_work> lain: i bet that ruins branch prediction etc too
<lain> azonenberg_work: oh very likely
<whitequark> of course it does
<azonenberg_work> it would be hilarious if you came up with a script to disassemble and un-patch all the rop
<azonenberg_work> and it was like 10x faster
<whitequark> i'm almost tempted
<whitequark> and then
<lain> IDA nope'd the fuck out when I tried to analyze it... it was like "lol I found this pile of function fragments but not a single branch, pls halp"
<sorear> How much VPR is there in modern Quartus and would that be a fair comparison
<whitequark> sell it as a commerial product
<whitequark> "vivado accelerator"
<lain> so I traced execution and sure enough it's tens of thousands of returns
<whitequark> lain: which file?
<lain> whitequark: uhh it's been a long time, I can see if I have any info lying around though. 1sec
<azonenberg_work> i reaaaally hope it's only flexlm
<azonenberg_work> but i dont think it is
<azonenberg_work> its probably a commercial obfuscator they ran on the build
<lain> libisl_iostreams.dll is what I was analyzing at the time, according to my notes
<lain> whitequark: ^
<sorear> Meanwhile the most recent few Chrome binaries use ROP for all vtable/indirect calls, but nevermind
<whitequark> sorear: some mitigation?
<jn__> sorear: aka. "retpoline"?
<sorear> jn__: yes
<whitequark> ah right
<lain> surprised xilinx isn't trumpeting "vivado isn't vulnerable to meltdown!" lolol
<azonenberg_work> lol
<azonenberg_work> meanwhile, judging by how easily segfaultable it is
<azonenberg_work> i seriously would love to try fuzzing vivado
<lain> haha
<azonenberg_work> and create a malicious HDL file that pops calc when synthesized
<lain> that'd be hilarious
<lain> I'm 99% sure I've achieved stack smashing (unintentionally) via isim
<whitequark> lain: you were saying "not a single branch"?
<whitequark> the one in 2017.4 definitely has branches
<whitequark> it also has weird ass prologues and epilogues
<lain> whitequark: ah, maybe I misremembered
<whitequark> they always push all registers
<lain> my notes say they had a bunch of movupd insns
<lain> to setup the rop chains
<azonenberg_work> lain: i know i've sigsegv'd vivado a bunch
<lain> this was vivado 2016.3
<whitequark> they definitely have very weird instructions
<lain> the DllEntryPoint and all the exports are ROP chain based
<whitequark> why does it run aad
<lain> lol
<sorear> Anti emulation?
<sorear> Bonus points if it’s one of the aad forms that was for a long time not documented by intel
<whitequark> yes
<whitequark> aad 0x15
<whitequark> that's how binja decodes it
<whitequark> hm yes this is definitely obfuscated
<whitequark> each function pushes every register, does a few stupid jumps, then calls some huge piece of shit
<whitequark> that invokes dl_iterate_phdr
<azonenberg_work> wtf
<azonenberg_work> so i just tried to attach a debugger to vivado to investigate this crash
<azonenberg_work> and i keep getting sigsegv's in normal UI activity
<whitequark> lol
<awygle> i thought i read somewhere that vivado is anti-debuggerized
<azonenberg_work> is that anti-emulation you think?
<azonenberg_work> yeah thats what i'm wondering
<azonenberg_work> this is acting like antidebug
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: i had no problems running cmdline vivado under debugger
<whitequark> once i got through their obtuse shell script launchers
<azonenberg_work> like every mouse click
<whitequark> so it might just be shitty coding
<azonenberg_work> it sigsegv's
* whitequark looks more at the prologue
<whitequark> so it pushes 0x10 on top of stack
<whitequark> then does test rsp, 0xf
<whitequark> come on
<sorear> rsp or [rsp]?
<whitequark> uhm
<whitequark> just rsp
<whitequark> which is even dumber
<whitequark> this is meant to confuse, like, extremely stupid decompilers
<whitequark> that have no symbolic evaluation whatsoever
<azonenberg_work> prob some commercial product they just bought and ran
<azonenberg_work> not knowing what it did
<sorear> Does anyone not keep 16 byte stack alignment these days?
<whitequark> oh I see
<whitequark> I figured out why it calls aad
<whitequark> it doesn't
<whitequark> the function bodies are encrypted
<lain> hehe
<gruetzkopf> ouch.
<whitequark> impressively, binja didn't get confused by that
<whitequark> if you go to assembly view then it shows you prologue, epilogue, meaningless garbage bytes in between not decoded as instructions
<whitequark> but it guesses function boundaries correctly and stuff
<whitequark> ok yeah I see why it pushes everything now
<whitequark> it doesn't know the actual calling convention
<awygle> calling conventions are for suckers
<awygle> apparently
<pie_> whatcha guys looking at
<pie_> awygle, calling...what?
<pie_> :P
<azonenberg_work> pie_: vivado's obfuscated synthesis
* whitequark squints
<whitequark> not sure if obfuscated code or just shitty compiler
<azonenberg_work> the rop and encrypted function bodies sure smells like obfuscation
<whitequark> no
<whitequark> I mean the decryption functions
<azonenberg_work> oh
<awygle> wildly off-topic - if i wanted to programmatically create STEP models in Python, what would you recommend i use?
<whitequark> awygle: cadquery
<pie_> oh cool
<awygle> whitequark: dope, thanks
<pie_> how did you even find that in the presumably gigabytes of binaries :
<pie_> :P
<whitequark> awygle: it's tied to freecad right now (EWWWW)
<whitequark> but i think they're migrating to pure opencascade
<whitequark> awygle: alternate answer: solvespace's to-be-written SWIG interface :P
<awygle> hm, yucky. but i can hold my nose i suppose.
<balrog> "to-be-written" P
<whitequark> some assembly required
<awygle> "Some assembly required" (cut to shot of blinking cursor in Vim)
<qu1j0t3> haha
<awygle> *in empty Vim file
* whitequark uses sublime text
<whitequark> the only editor i can tolerate
<whitequark> apparently
<awygle> i've never used sublime text
<awygle> although i hear good things
<awygle> i got too used to vim
<whitequark> it was so good it made me abandon my many year long streak of severe free software zealotry
<whitequark> it just... does everything right
<whitequark> the actual editor is absolutely incredible, it can take huge amounts of abuse and still be very fast
<whitequark> i routinely use solvespace to browse dozen gigabyte files
<whitequark> erm
<whitequark> sublime
<whitequark> solvespace does *not* handle large models well.
<gruetzkopf> :D
<azonenberg_work> whitequark: right now my favorite editor is geany, it's technically an ide but i can disable the file browsers window etc
<azonenberg_work> So i just use it as an editor
<whitequark> the file browser window is why i don't use vim :P
<whitequark> literally
<awygle> i use vim at home, visual studio at work
<whitequark> i tried going to vim from gedit, found that the directory tree sucked, went to ST2
<azonenberg_work> as far as performance it's good enough but it does slow down if you open massively huge stuff
<awygle> ew gedit :p
<sorear> Is that macOS-only? On the xps13?
<whitequark> sorear: huh?
<gruetzkopf> i'm mostly on pluma xor kate/kdevelop tbh
<whitequark> ST works on all platforms
<sorear> Oh
<whitequark> it has its own gui library, and quite impressively, it doesn't suck
<whitequark> e.g. it actually uses the platform IME
<whitequark> well to be fair I had to write an LD_PRELOAD for it to work with xim correctly, but that's details :P
<awygle> yeah "cross platform app that uses native UI stuff" is depressingly rare
<whitequark> well
<whitequark> in case of ST, it's for the better
<azonenberg_work> i thought that's what wxwidgets was supposed to be?
<azonenberg_work> a wrapper around the native widget set
<awygle> yes but wxwidgets sucks :p
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: you can't really use that in an editor
* awygle is sounding like rqou
<azonenberg_work> awygle: i didnt say it was good, just what it is
<whitequark> you can't put a 10G file into a wx text box and expect it to work
<whitequark> you can't get nice syntax highlighting from it
<awygle> well of course the core of the application should be custom
<whitequark> you can't get multiple cursor support
<awygle> i just want native file dialogs
<azonenberg_work> multiple cursors??
<awygle> (for example)
<whitequark> awygle: oh it uses GTK for menu and file dialogs
<azonenberg_work> how does that work
<awygle> whitequark: but you're on linux, does it also do that on windows and mac?
<whitequark> awygle: yes it does
<awygle> :(
<whitequark> hm?
<whitequark> oh
<whitequark> I mean it uses platform menu and dialogs
<whitequark> not gtk lol
<whitequark> the entire chrome comes from the platform
<whitequark> the text rendering engine (not the layout engine, only rendering) comes from the platform
<awygle> okay good! :D
<whitequark> so you get e.g. cleartype
<whitequark> (if you want that atrocity)
<awygle> all these are good things
<awygle> btw is anybody following xi?
<whitequark> ST is extremely well designed and I stole a lot of its design in solvespace
<whitequark> solvespace now also uses platform menus and dialogs everywhere
<sorear> Kinda sorta
<whitequark> it was an INCREDIBLE pain in the ass
<sorear> I’ve crossed paths with Raph a few times
<awygle> for some reason that sounds combative, like you had disagreements
* qu1j0t3 remembers Raph from the kuro5hin days
<whitequark> wtf is that website
<sorear> Mine was mostly ghilbert
<whitequark> xi-gtk looks just as horrible as gedit 3 https://raw.githubusercontent.com/eyelash/xi-gtk/master/screenshot.png
<whitequark> whoever came up with the new Gnome HIG should never design UIs again
<q3k> speaking of 'fuck gtk3'
<q3k> this patch disables recursive search in the file picker dialog https://code.hackerspace.pl/q3k/q3kverlay/tree/x11-libs/gtk+/files/gtk+-3.22.26-typeahead.patch
<whitequark> gtk3 itself is fairly sensible
<q3k> and restores type-to-find-prefix (a.k.a. typeahead)
<lain> do you like unimportant UI elements taking up huge chunks of screen real estate? because gnome sure does
<q3k> ^this
<whitequark> lain: i'm talking about the core of the framework
<azonenberg_work> q3k: ooooh
<whitequark> not theming
<azonenberg_work> this has been driving me up the wall for ages
<lain> ah
<q3k> azonenberg_work: not my patch
<whitequark> they finally migrated to all GL
<whitequark> unfucked the input system
<q3k> azonenberg_work: found it on AUR, made it into an ebuild
<q3k> azonenberg_work: made my life so so much better
<whitequark> the main issue I have with them is the inane ABI stability policy
<whitequark> or lack thereof
<azonenberg_work> lain: then they remove random things into the title bar instead of having a toolbar
<awygle> marshmallows
<azonenberg_work> stop it
<lain> haha
<azonenberg_work> chrome is bad enough putting tabs in the title bar
<whitequark> yeah those are horrible
<whitequark> I don't support that in solvespace :P
<awygle> I don't mind title bar UI tbh. Lot of wasted space
<awygle> Now gnomes implementation of it is bad
<azonenberg_work> awygle: a good title bar is only gonna be ~16 pixels high
<azonenberg_work> not significant
<whitequark> pixels??
<q3k> non-retina display users. there's dozens of us. dozens!
<awygle> azonenberg_work: 16x3840
<azonenberg_work> awygle: if you have one window across the whole monitor? sure
<awygle> that's a big number
<awygle> 16x1920 is still a lot
<whitequark> q3k: it's more that
<awygle> plus something something Fitts law
<azonenberg_work> thats still <1% of your screen real estate
<whitequark> since hidpi displays exist, pixels as an unit of measurement are obsolete
<awygle> i like how firefox does this
<q3k> whitequark: not in x11 land
<awygle> uses the real estate without looking like crap
<whitequark> q3k: x11 is obsolete
<whitequark> x11 was obsolete when it got to version 11
<awygle> if only
<gruetzkopf> i don't even want to know how bad X1 to X10 were :D
<lain> i3wm ftw
<awygle> is wayland better?
<awygle> is wayland even what we ended up with?
<lain> I want to like wayland but I'm still on xorg
<lain> we'll see if wayland gets where it needs to be in another couple years
<whitequark> wayland is much better, although it has some weird issues
<whitequark> e.g. wine cannot target wayland
<whitequark> since wayland doesn't let you position a window arbitrarily
<whitequark> interestingly, *x*wayland does (somehow), so wine works via xwayland.
<whitequark> i'm mostly waiting for an i3 wayland port that actually works
<lain> yeah, it's been a while but I think the lack of a good i3 port is what held me back from wayland
<lain> and slim
<awygle> my most common use of gui linux software is "X forwarding to the Cygwin X server from a VM"
<awygle> so i'm very poorly informed
<q3k> >whitequark | since wayland doesn't let you position a window arbitrarily
<q3k> but why
<whitequark> i think the idea is that the window manager gets to position windows, not applications
<lain> good lord I have to download an application to do a parametric search of stm32 parts!?
<q3k> whitequark: it's easy to imagine that there can be a request from an application to position itself, too - and then the window manager can honor that or not
<whitequark> that's what x11 does
<lain> does wayland solve the focus stealing problem? :P
<sorear> SubstructureRedirectMask is close to the weirdest possible way to expose that functionality…
<whitequark> yes
<azonenberg_work> wayland doesnt let you arbitrarily position a window??
mumptai has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
<pie_> lain, no more accidentally pressing space on the wrong dialog?
<whitequark> azonenberg_work: none of the wayland window managers do
<whitequark> "it's a security risk"
<azonenberg_work> ??
<azonenberg_work> disallowing focus stealing i'm fine with
<sorear> Mm clickjacking
<whitequark> ^
<whitequark> wtf
<whitequark> I switch from twitter for a hour and "376 new notifications"
<sorear> Someday I’ll figure out using that.
<cr1901_modern> lain: I thought slim is kinda "really dead" at this point? Not that any desktop manager is good
<lain> cr1901_modern: tbh I have no idea, it works great for me. made a simple theme and it Just Works™
<whitequark> oh btw rqou
<whitequark> Filters should end with a * wildcard to allow matching of modified footprint suffixes
<whitequark> this is from kicad library guidelines
<whitequark> that's how it handles _HandSoldering etc
Lord_Nightmare has quit [Ping timeout: 256 seconds]
Lord_Nightmare has joined ##openfpga
<awygle> https://github.com/mkeeter/antimony this is kind of cool
azonenberg_work has quit [Ping timeout: 264 seconds]
<whitequark> it can't do STEP
<awygle> no, which is a bummer. i don't actually intend to use it. but it's cool. i like experiments with alternative GUIs
<whitequark> yeah
<awygle> thanks for those PRs, i'm starting to get swamped with other work
<awygle> i'll complete the review checklist this evening though
<whitequark> thanks!
<whitequark> if you see anything wrong with the layout, please go ahead and just fix it
<awygle> will do
<openfpga-github> [Glasgow] whitequark pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow/commit/d0343d809abe6a57b04b284573ebd7ea4f18a312
<openfpga-github> Glasgow/master d0343d8 whitequark: Reorganize directory structure for hardware....
<openfpga-github> [Glasgow] whitequark pushed 3 new commits to master: https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow/compare/d0343d809abe...aa13ed2bdd56
<openfpga-github> Glasgow/master aa13ed2 whitequark: Add explicit pin1 mark for CY7C as the IPC one is obscured by via.
<openfpga-github> Glasgow/master 3ea846f whitequark: Remove decoupling capacitor from non-power (WAKEUP) pin.
<openfpga-github> Glasgow/master b172ac2 whitequark: Swap INT0 and INT1 to give ~ALERT highest natural priority.
futarisIRCcloud has joined ##openfpga
soylentyellow has quit [Quit: Leaving]
soylentyellow has joined ##openfpga
<whitequark> awygle: I went through the checklist and I think everything is fine
<openfpga-github> [Glasgow] whitequark pushed 1 new commit to master: https://github.com/whitequark/Glasgow/commit/703de7a556b8a2aa69acb4f8ace6dd89b063ec58
<openfpga-github> Glasgow/master 703de7a whitequark: Add fiducials....
<whitequark> the one thing that might be an issue is analog layout
<whitequark> I admit I haven't put a whole lot of time into it given that we need like ±100mV
<awygle> sure