<lain>
just doing some math regarding those spider photos... it's funny how you see something on a screen and think "I wish I had more pixels there" without realizing how much detail you already have
<lain>
the camera that took those shots is a full frame (36x24 mm) sensor at 42mp (7952x5304)
<rqou>
wow, full frame
<rqou>
look who's fancy :P
<lain>
those were taken with a 1:1 macro lens, so 1 unit of object (in the focal plane) takes up exactly the same 1 unit of image on the sensor
<lain>
with that pixel pitch, at 1:1, each pixel is 4.52 um of the subject
<lain>
granted the chroma resolution is ~25% of that due to Bayer array, but holy moly that's more resolution than I expected :P
<rqou>
42 megaray light field camera when? :P
<lain>
if I put a 4.5x macro lens on it, it'd be around 1um of subject per pixel
<lain>
lol ikr
<rqou>
apparently light field photography just isn't that useful
<rqou>
unless you can fit it in a phone or something
<lain>
I'd love to turn a 36, 42, or 100mp sensor into an N-megaray lightfield camera some day just for fun
<lain>
it might actually produce usefully high-resolution images with that many rays
<rqou>
you know that's how the commercial light field cameras work, right?
<lain>
yeah
<rqou>
which is why they have low megaray counts
<lain>
I just don't know how you'd DIY the microlens thingers
<rqou>
i can ask :P
<rqou>
ren ng (formerly of lytro) is now a professor here :P
<lain>
I've got a 36mp FF sensor lying around waiting for a purpose in life
<rqou>
so apparently it's important to make sure your DNA doesn't go to <strike>pigs</strike>cops
<whitequark>
yeah
<lain>
bleh. I want the neat info from my dna, I just don't want anyone else to have it
azonenberg_work has joined ##openfpga
<awygle>
re: ##animefpga, if you like cute girls doing cute things, comic girls is good brain candy this season
<azonenberg_work>
awygle: lol
<azonenberg_work>
Still waiting for somebody to make "tiny schoolgirls vs giant PCBs" an actual anime
<rqou>
azonenberg_work: tiny catgirls help PAR your fpga design by pushing blocks around and tangling/untangling wires :P
<azonenberg_work>
Lolol
<azonenberg_work>
The challenge would be coming up with an actual plot
<azonenberg_work>
Rather than just having it be "fanservice: the anime"
<azonenberg_work>
(in which case you should just watch Keijo and get it over with)
<rqou>
meh, just make it fanservice :P
<rqou>
make sure to have the loli, the glasses girl, the yandere, the tsundere, etc. etc. :P :P : P
<azonenberg_work>
oh, you could play yandere simulator too
<azonenberg_work>
(i should grab a recent build, havent checked on the progress of that thing in 6 months or so... is he still working on it?)
<whitequark>
...
<whitequark>
azonenberg i haven't really thought you to be the type to play yandere simulator
<rqou>
blame his $WIFE :P
<azonenberg_work>
lol i dont play so much as lol at the absurdity
<whitequark>
i dont think its actually intended to be played played
<whitequark>
i hope so at least
<whitequark>
also
<whitequark>
you could make it "fanservice: the anime" but the fanservice is in the electronics
<rqou>
so azonenberg_work, you're one of the few people here who aren't opposed to crotchfruit right? we should edit your babby into a catgirl :P :P :P
<rqou>
whitequark: lolol
<rqou>
i actually like that idea
<whitequark>
who aren't opposed to what
<rqou>
crotchfruit = babies
<rqou>
but derogatory
* whitequark
facedesks
<Bike>
i think i didn't want to know that
<whitequark>
i *know* i didn't want to know that
<whitequark>
i also didn't want to know what Keijo is
<azonenberg_work>
whitequark: now electronics fanservice? that i would watch lol
<rqou>
whitequark: wait you haven't heard about it?
<Bike>
you have to write it with like twelve exclamation points
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: how about you wait until i have one first :p
<rqou>
but you need to do the gene editing into a catgirl beforehand :P
<whitequark>
azonenberg_work: no you have to edit the ova
<azonenberg_work>
lol
<whitequark>
rqou: i havent
<rqou>
but yeah, "electronics fanservice: the anime" might be fun
<azonenberg_work>
speaking of which, i'd like to see a more realistic version of that vlsi flash game
<rqou>
"this is a 50 GHz oscilloscope that _you can't have_!"
<whitequark>
i actually expect some obsessed director to make it eventually
<azonenberg_work>
Something with actual cmos instead of "pmos with invisible pulldowns"
<azonenberg_work>
And a more realistic timing model that allows you to tune W/L
<azonenberg_work>
vs having fixed delay per Q
<whitequark>
azoneberg i think thats just called asic design
<azonenberg_work>
whitequark: lol it would still be simplifier
<azonenberg_work>
simplified*
<whitequark>
university asic design
<azonenberg_work>
Just enough to make it challenging while still being fun
<azonenberg_work>
... lol
<rqou>
azonenberg_work: also finfet just so you get stuck with width quantization? :P
<whitequark>
are you implying asic design *isn't fun*?
<azonenberg_work>
whitequark: Dont know, i've never done asic backend work
<azonenberg_work>
only rtl
<rqou>
classmate is trying to design (in simulation only) a 45nm opamp with a 0.8V supply
<Bike>
the one time i designed an asic in class all i learned was that transitor miniaturization is fucking bullshit
<rqou>
apparently it currently gets an open-loop gain of ~300
<rqou>
:P :P
<whitequark>
Bike: goddamn im envious
<whitequark>
can you mail me your lectures and a pirated copy of synopsys or w/e you were using
<rqou>
lolol
<rqou>
most lecture material is probably open
<Bike>
oh they didn't give us a copy of the software. far too expensive. had to log in to uni computers.
<Bike>
i can probably find the lectures though.
<whitequark>
assholes
<rqou>
yeah, same setup here
<azonenberg_work>
Bike: yeah they did similar stuff at rpi
<azonenberg_work>
i didnt take the vlsi class
<whitequark>
so, you're telling me that neither of you copied the software?
<azonenberg_work>
but you didnt get the cadence tools
<rqou>
no, because i actually didn't want to get in trouble
<Bike>
they made me sign an NDA
<azonenberg_work>
Just vnc access to an otherwise airgapped system
<rqou>
heh, systems here aren't airgapped
<rqou>
afaik they're on the same SSO
<whitequark>
hang on
<rqou>
but just the hostnames are "hidden"
<azonenberg_work>
i forget the exact setup we had but it seemed pretty locked down
<Bike>
also i would have had to take it out through the uni network or something? i'm cowardly, what can i say
<whitequark>
azonenberg_work: "Cadence IC Virtuoso" does that work for ASICs
<azonenberg_work>
License fees are on the order of 1M USD per seat
<Bike>
nothing terribly exciting, to my chagrin
<rqou>
O_o
<Bike>
1m fuck
<whitequark>
of course russians pirated it
<Bike>
i mean that's the impression i got but fuck
<rqou>
i don't think $FANCY_SCHOOL paid nearly that much though
<azonenberg_work>
yeah schools get discounts
<Bike>
my school was not fancy
<azonenberg_work>
that's *per person per year*
<Bike>
maybe i should revise my opinion of why making chips is expensive
<azonenberg_work>
and thats just the layout tool
<rqou>
since (at least we like to think that) $FANCY_SCHOOL and $OTHER_FANCY_SCHOOL_WITH_THE_TREES basically invented the entire VLSI design industry
<azonenberg_work>
that doesnt count a lot of the other toolchain components
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: lol
<Bike>
why are you using variables with that much specificity...
<rqou>
fine, i'll just call it stanfurd :P
<rqou>
hopefully there are no cardinals/trees here :P :P
<rqou>
##openfpga is bear territory :P :P :P
<rqou>
(cc awygle)
<azonenberg_work>
lol
<whitequark>
oh it's the linux version too in the torrent
<azonenberg_work>
idk if they even have it for windows
<rqou>
of course
<Bike>
my prof doesn't seem to have put his lectures up anywhere
<awygle>
ASIC design is weirdly all Linux, iiuc
<Bike>
i could ask him, he likes me
<Bike>
the book is easy to get of course, it was uhhhhh
<whitequark>
Bike: i totally want to try my hand at it sometime
<Bike>
i think i still have the copy i pirated for class
<rqou>
whitequark: i did actual microfabrication lab, are you jealous too?
<Bike>
too rich for my blood
<whitequark>
rqou: obviously
<whitequark>
but iknew that
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: at least you didnt do it at home like sam
<rqou>
Bike: yeah, i actually had to pay a lab fee for this
<Bike>
my school's other campus had a clean room, dunno what they do there though
<rqou>
we have two lol
<whitequark>
i dont think sam's circuit is tested yet
<rqou>
a teaching cleanroom and a real cleanroom
<Bike>
how much was the fee like we talking a normal fee or fifty thousand smackers or somethin
<azonenberg_work>
whitequark: it looked like he had a curve tracer on it in one shot
<rqou>
Bike: $90
<azonenberg_work>
But i didnt look too much
<Bike>
yeah that's ok
<azonenberg_work>
Bike: the outside-industry rate for RPI's cleanroom, ten years ago (probably higher now)
<azonenberg_work>
was $188.50
<azonenberg_work>
Per hour
<Bike>
razavi! behzad razavi
<azonenberg_work>
then i think $90 for outside universities and $45 for internal users
<Bike>
exercises in that book confused the hell out of me
<rqou>
azonenberg_work: yeah, i couldn't get access to our cleanrooms
<rqou>
because i'm not a "real" grad student
<azonenberg_work>
lol
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: btw we just extended our lease until the end of july
<rqou>
zomgwtf
<azonenberg_work>
And the landlord says they're renting the place to somebody else by start of august
<azonenberg_work>
So we definitely have to be out then
<rqou>
f*cking finish renovating jeez
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: i can only get an hour or two a day in during the evenings, it's slow going
<rqou>
just hire some "illegals" :P :P :P
<azonenberg_work>
It's 18:15 and i'm on the boat home from work, once i dock its still another 20 minutes to get home so probably 18:45
<Bike>
ee capstone course says it involves ethics, whoda thunk
<azonenberg_work>
then half an hour to change into dirty clothes and drive to the house is 19:15
<rqou>
Bike: undergrad or masters?
<Bike>
undergrad
<rqou>
ah yeah
<azonenberg_work>
then i have 1:45 of actual work time before my 21:00 closing time
<azonenberg_work>
(i try not to work past then to avoid waking up neighbors etc)
<Bike>
"master's, there's no ethics there"
<azonenberg_work>
And that doesn't count dinner somewhere in that time
<rqou>
apparently various accreditation orgs require ethics courses in the undergrad curriculum
<azonenberg_work>
So more like 1:30 or so of actual usable work
<Bike>
i wasn't actually a major so i only took an asic class by accidentally lying about prereqs
<rqou>
Bike: and yes, that is definitely aligned with my observations
<Bike>
capstone's the fuckin moon
<rqou>
(the "master's, there's no ethics there" comment)
<rqou>
oh btw
<azonenberg_work>
rqou: That's only 8 hours of work *per week* plus whatever i can cram in over the weekends
<Bike>
grad programs certainly seem... exploitative, but maybe you mean something else
<rqou>
i was told that $FANCY_SCHOOL's BA degree doesn't require an ethics course
<rqou>
only the BS degree does
<rqou>
also, don't even ask why we have both lol
<azonenberg_work>
Welp, boat is docking
<azonenberg_work>
back later
<Bike>
what is even the distinction between a BA and a BS, it seems like BS
<rqou>
lol
<Bike>
i think my school let you get either in CS? i don't know
<rqou>
the BA degree is CS, the BS degree is EECS
<Bike>
is there an actual "EECS" program instead of a department
<rqou>
yes
<Bike>
like you learn java and how to make a transformer?
<rqou>
lolol
<rqou>
i have literally done that
<rqou>
but you don't have to
<Bike>
that just seems so broad
<rqou>
it is
<Bike>
i guess it's like getting a degree in "biology" or something
<whitequark>
well it taught rqou the very useful skill of hacking shit together until it works
<rqou>
oh f*ck you :P
<whitequark>
no it is genuinely useful
<whitequark>
at least for job security
<Bike>
i think you learn that in any vaguely engineery program
<rqou>
idk about programs that i like to mockingly call "java-schools"
<whitequark>
"EECS" is precisely "vaguely engineery"
<Bike>
indeed so
<Bike>
my cs program focusing on java is one reason i got bored and quit
<awygle>
EECS is as vague as you want it to be
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<awygle>
Which is honestly pretty cool
<whitequark>
a cs program focusing on java is absurd
<Bike>
yeah
<rqou>
but they exist for sure
<awygle>
Although you can definitely shoot yourself in the foot by taking a lot of 101 courses and not getting deep into anything
<awygle>
(source: me)
<Bike>
i work with an undergrad and he's taking an "AI" course which somehow involves learning lisp and prolog
<whitequark>
awygle: pretty sure you're okay
<rqou>
Bike: oh, we've managed to cram both of those into our "CS 101" equivalent
<awygle>
whitequark: well yeah. But not thanks to school primarily :-P
<whitequark>
oh
<awygle>
Yeah you can literally learn scheme in a 90 minute lecture
<awygle>
Source: me again, also rqou
<rqou>
yup, welcome to berkeley
<Bike>
how long had you been programming before taking the lecture
<rqou>
oh i've been programming for years
<awygle>
Uh like two years? Maybe three?
<awygle>
In C++ primarily
<Bike>
yeah, i mean, if you already know how to program, learning the basics of a giving programming language takes like an hour
<Bike>
given
<rqou>
but i had a friend who wasn't even a cs major (was english+something else) who took this course and survived
<awygle>
Also Common Lisp is way harder than Scheme to learn lol
<Bike>
it's just bigger
<Bike>
scheme you can also write an implementation for in an hour
<Bike>
older revisions anyway
<rqou>
also fun fact: this friend and i have been classmates since elementary school
<Bike>
anyway fuck cs education
<rqou>
this is how Fremont works :P
<rqou>
fancy suburb full of "azns" who all end up in $FANCY_SCHOOLs :P :P
<awygle>
oh you _grew up_ in Fremont? Wow
<rqou>
yeah?
<Bike>
wow. fremont. imagine
<rqou>
wait, what's so special about fremont?
<Bike>
i'm just playing along
<awygle>
it's just hella expensive lol
<rqou>
well, it was manageable when my parents first moved in :P :P :P
* awygle
is just a formerly-poor boy from a formerly-poor family
<rqou>
#JustBayAreaThings
<Bike>
yeah lots of places in california are like absurdly expensive but weren't a few years ago so people there still take out their own trash and such
<rqou>
oh birbsite i recently RT'd a really depressing thread
<Bike>
also the first time i heard of japanese spider crabs it was in the context of a fringe theory that they'd eaten the corpses from a plane crash
<Bike>
the picture really helped
<Bike>
"yeah, i can buy that"
<awygle>
I don't like lobster or shrimp but crab is the shit
<whitequark>
wait what
<whitequark>
those seem like normal mouthparts
<Bike>
oh crabs are great to eat
<Bike>
well yes i meant crab mouthparts in general
<whitequark>
googling did turn up the pictures of horseshoe crab mouthparts (are those even crabs)
<whitequark>
and those are horrifying
<Bike>
they are not
<Bike>
and yeah they look pretty cool from below huh
<whitequark>
you're far more suited to biology than me
<Bike>
horseshoe crabs are one of those things that evolved half a billion years ago and then had all their close relatives die so now they're fairly unique aliens
<whitequark>
when i look at the horseshoe crabs from below the only thing i want is to die
<whitequark>
>The example of king crabs (family Lithodidae) evolving from hermit crabs has been particularly well studied and, although some doubt this theory, there is considerable evidence in its favour. For example: most hermit crabs are asymmetrical, so that they fit well into spiral snail shells; the abdomens of king crabs, even though they do not use snail shells for shelter, are also asymmetrical.
<whitequark>
uh did no one sequence them yet
<awygle>
for some reason this strikes me as,like, an anasi story
<Bike>
people don't sequence shit you know that
<sorear>
ok, but call me again when you've dissected a SQUID
<rqou>
whitequark: DIY genome sequencer when? :P
<whitequark>
rqou: pointless
<rqou>
just buy one?
<Bike>
i did. like three people here have. who are you talking to
<balrog>
Wut, Microchip is buying Microsemi now
<awygle>
I've dissected a SQUIB, does that count?
<whitequark>
rqou: they get cheaper at superexponential rate
<sorear>
balrog: didn't that happen a while ago
<Bike>
oh squid like the other thing
<whitequark>
in the time it takes you to develop a shitty prototype a mass-market device will be under $100
<Bike>
i wouldn't mind doing that, but it sounds considerably harder
<Bike>
need like... pretty small knives
<whitequark>
*google images shoves a giant isopod into my face* fuck
<whitequark>
global freezing when
<Bike>
i'm sorry that a jokey comment about not showing you images resulted in your being shown images :(
<whitequark>
i want at least a meter of ice between me and that
<whitequark>
no it's mostly
<whitequark>
actually
<whitequark>
the flight between hk and ru is all over terrain
<whitequark>
so if it crashes i just die and don't encounter sea
<whitequark>
that is actually great
<Bike>
i was going to say, you picked the right environs for that
<Bike>
and i think giant isopods die anywhere near the surface so you're probably fine
<whitequark>
being near a dead giant isopod doesnt excite me any more than being near an alive giant isopod
<whitequark>
actually i think an alive giant isopod would be really scared of me
<Bike>
seems likely
<Bike>
how about octopuses. they're cool right. you can pet them
<whitequark>
octopuses are alrightish
<whitequark>
theyre still like
<awygle>
they're pretty cool
<whitequark>
wet
<whitequark>
but that seems unavoidable in the ocean
<awygle>
crazy smart
<Bike>
generally they are wet that's true
<whitequark>
i think sharks would feel dry
<whitequark>
because of how abrasive their skin is
<rqou>
yeah it's weird how crazy smart octopuses are
<awygle>
I could ask my uncle
<awygle>
He pulled one out of the ocean once
<Bike>
great uncle sharkfeeler
<awygle>
Because he's a crazy man
<Bike>
don't people keep dogfish as pets
<rqou>
also birbs are also ridiculously smart
<awygle>
some are yeah. ravens, especially
<Bike>
octopuses being smart almost seems like a waste because they're not very sociable, so i'll probably never read octopus poetry
<Bike>
birds, they know where it's at, just sing all at everyone
<awygle>
The Seattle aquarium is great and they have a river otter exhibit and they're sooooo cute
<rqou>
it's also interesting to see the animals (esp. dogs) that have realized that when they get stuck and can't figure out a problem, they go and find a human to help them
<whitequark>
"smart but not very sociable" big mood
<whitequark>
we could CRISPR octopuses into catgirls
<rqou>
wtf
<Bike>
we can't crispr everything into catgirls, whitequark!!
<rqou>
that'd be a huge edit
<rqou>
lol Bike
<awygle>
that does seem like the long way around
<whitequark>
Bike: not with that attitude no we can't
<sorear>
why is being near a dead giant isopod a problem. are they not edible?
<awygle>
Maybe easier to start with cats?
<Bike>
i dunno i wanna see an invertibrate holy shit i can't spell catgirl
<Bike>
like just kidn of bunching up its tentacles in an effort to appear all quadrupedal
<awygle>
Just have to add "girl" that's only four letters
<Bike>
faking wiggling ears by pigmentation
<awygle>
... Shit I'm actually on board with this.
<Bike>
i guess catgirls are bipedal. anyway check out the kickstarter for my octodad fangame
<Bike>
octopuses do that stuff too. yall seen mimic octopuses right
<whitequark>
a catgirl cuttlefish is called cuddlefish
<lain>
:3
<awygle>
"I can see in the polarization of light that you're not a bad person!"
<whitequark>
they couldn't use laptops though that sucks
<Bike>
did whitequark link that thing about how some kind of cephalopod can't see color except that by refocusing it can unblur by frequency or did i get that elsewhere
<rqou>
azonenberg: is there anything you wanted me to run through tsuprem4 before i graduate? :P (for homecmos)
Bike has quit [Ping timeout: 268 seconds]
<rqou>
azonenberg: or anything in the synopsys TCAD package
<rqou>
oooh
<rqou>
azonenberg, whitequark: cadence virtuoso is installed on these machines too
<rqou>
so if you want me to run anything...
<rqou>
also, i told you $FANCY_SCHOOL has everything :P
<sorear>
hmm, there are a few of those here, I'll need to spend more time figuring out what I can finagle
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<rqou>
zomgwtf
<rqou>
i just ran `ldd` on some random binary that's part of virtuoso
<rqou>
and guess what
<rqou>
libgdiuser32.so => not found
<rqou>
libkernel32.so => not found
<rqou>
libadvapi32.so => not found
<rqou>
idk about any obfuscation though
<sorear>
someone posted on birdsite a while ago that vivado has no native platform, it uses both winelib and cygwin
<rqou>
i absolutely will not be leaking this stuff, but if anybody ever manages to get themselves onto the right machines here
<rqou>
please grab all of /share/instsww
<whitequark>
sorear: i posted that
<rqou>
it's a goldmine
<whitequark>
sorear: it might not be true anymore
<whitequark>
but it definitely was true a few years ago
<rqou>
vivado, synopsys, and cadence are all installed on these machines
<sorear>
now who do I need to befriend at MIT
<rqou>
$FANCY_SCHOOL indeed
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<azonenberg>
sorear: wait what?
<azonenberg>
winelib and cygin?
<azonenberg>
And java
<azonenberg>
it's literally caught in between the major platforms and doesnt run well on any of them
<azonenberg>
i cannot say i am surprised, but... i'm a bit sad :p
<rqou>
"best" platform is web, fight me
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<rqou>
(best in the "worst is better" way)
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<azonenberg>
Can 0603s be smaller kthxbai?
<azonenberg>
and/or can oshpark get ViP already?
<awygle>
*you're* using 0603?
<azonenberg>
For 4.7 uF, yes
<awygle>
not *my* azonenberg :-P
<awygle>
so here's a question
<azonenberg>
And here's an answer
<awygle>
you know how you're supposed to use multiple cap values for decoupling? 100nf and 10nf for example?
<azonenberg>
Yes
<azonenberg>
Generally I do 0.47, 4.7, and 100
<azonenberg>
As those are reasonable ceilings for 0402, 0603, and 1206-1210 package sizes at typical digital Vcore voltage ranges
<awygle>
I've always heard that that's because you get better impedance over a wider area
<azonenberg>
And, especially on the low end
<awygle>
area of the curve that is
<azonenberg>
impedance is dominated by L (which is package dependent)
<awygle>
which makes sense iff the caps are in different size packages
<azonenberg>
So you want to maximize C for a given L
<azonenberg>
While also considering you care about *real* C, after C/V derating
<awygle>
but people often do things like a 10nF 0402 and a 100nF 0402
<azonenberg>
I havent crunched the numbers myself but the papers i've read suggest that buys you basically nothing
<awygle>
where it seems (ignoring C/V for a second) that two 100nF would be strictly better
<azonenberg>
There might be a very slight spot at one point of the frequency band where the smaller cap is better, but in general since the L dominates the gain is insignificant
<azonenberg>
Let's look at some concrete examples
<awygle>
this has bothered me for years. I usually get handwaving about "oh but your impedance is *flatter* over a wider band"
<awygle>
Which mostly does not make sense
<azonenberg>
For a PDN, i dont care about how flat the impedance is
<awygle>
In that it's true, but also pointless
<azonenberg>
i want it to be near zero from DC to several times my clock
<azonenberg>
if it's a bit lower in some spots than others IDGAF
* azonenberg
waits for browser to restart, it was using 3GB RAM
<azonenberg>
in a VM with 4GB including the OS
<awygle>
I am pleased that thus far you are validating my irritation
<azonenberg>
So, let's look at samsung 0402 X7R for the sake of discussion
<azonenberg>
Both out of stock with a 42-week lead time but let's forget about that for the moment :p
<azonenberg>
Click the characteristics link and look at the chart in the top left
<azonenberg>
Impedance of the 10 nF cap starts around 10K ohm and bottoms out at about 0.1 ohm at the resonant frequency of ~70 MHz
<azonenberg>
The 100 nF cap starts at about 100 ohms (at a lower frequency than the 10's chart starts)
<azonenberg>
Bottoms out at about 0.01 ohm at 25 MHz
<awygle>
Wow. That is much different than I'd expected.
<azonenberg>
At 70 MHz, the most efficient frequency for the 10 nF, the 100 is about 0.15-0.2 ohms
<azonenberg>
So very slightly worse impedance *at the optimal operating point*
<awygle>
Oh wait no I misread. Yeah that makes sense
<azonenberg>
but across the board, much better
<azonenberg>
This illustrates my point, at a given frequency the L dominates and thus the more C you can shove in there the better
<azonenberg>
there is very little downside to more C in a given package size until you start hitting C/V derating limits
<awygle>
Right. Which is what I thought.
<azonenberg>
Yes
<azonenberg>
And the data backs it up
<awygle>
Grab one close to the max cap for the size
<azonenberg>
I actually go all the way up to 0.47 usually
<azonenberg>
Since that's what the xilinx decoupling recommendations call for, and its impedance is even better than the 0.1 across most of the range
<awygle>
Oh and what's the effect of bias here?
<awygle>
DC bias of course
<azonenberg>
The graph right under that one
<awygle>
I'm on my phone
<azonenberg>
Out to 6V, both of those caps are less than 10% below nominal
<azonenberg>
The 100 does drop off harder than the 10
<azonenberg>
But i'd have no qualms about using them anywhere in a normal digital supply rail
<azonenberg>
the only time i use a bigger package for caps in this range is if it's a smps input cap or other "high voltage" application
<azonenberg>
In which case C/V matters
<azonenberg>
this is one of the reasons i like samsung caps, they publish the C/V graph in the datasheet in a very easy-to-read place AND the datasheet is linked right from the digikey page
<azonenberg>
yes, digikey's listing is not perfect
<azonenberg>
Sometimes you have to google a bit
<azonenberg>
and other vendors do publish this data, it just isnt as easy to find
<awygle>
yup, i usually/often use murata caps and you can get it if you know where you're looking
<azonenberg>
i mean these days i use what i can get
<azonenberg>
:P
<awygle>
well, yes :p
<awygle>
okay well cool, nice to be right about things
<awygle>
maybe someday i'll meet someone who can convince me that "flat" impedance is more important than maximally low impedance but until then i'm rolling with this conclusion
<awygle>
(is maximally low contradictory?)
<azonenberg>
lol
<azonenberg>
i dont think anyone will convince me for digital circuits
<azonenberg>
for analog, it may be important to have flat performance but even then i think you just want low noise
<azonenberg>
if anything you'd just tune cap values to be self-resonant at your peak noise frequencies
<awygle>
yeah for analog it's more sensible
<awygle>
but i think what you most care about is _stable_ capacitance/inductance
<azonenberg>
but my point is, you arent using random decade caps for no reason
<azonenberg>
You're tuning the value to the needs of your circuit
<awygle>
yup
<azonenberg>
slapping 0.1 uF everywhere is just silly
<azonenberg>
in almost no cases is it the best value for the job
<awygle>
eh, it's often a good enough value for the job :p the real problem is that you almost never have a PDN impedance _target_, in my experience
<azonenberg>
Yes
<azonenberg>
That is a bigger issue
<azonenberg>
and PCB parasitics make it almost impossible to compute unless you have a full 3d field solver anyway
<azonenberg>
Since that distributed L is a huge concern
<awygle>
too bad osh park's stackup doesn't admit useful planar capacitance, although i guess it's that or sane impedances for 4L
<azonenberg>
not to mention transmission line effects in the PDN at higher frequencies :p
<azonenberg>
Yes
<awygle>
(unless you make board tiny)
<azonenberg>
You have to pick one, and sane impedances are much more useful to me
<awygle>
you can make the board suuuuper thin and have both!
<azonenberg>
Then you lose durability :p
<awygle>
screw the mech e's, they'll figure it out
<azonenberg>
You cannot get the best of everything until you hit six layers
<azonenberg>
Or 8
<awygle>
yeah you need 8 if you put EMI on the table for "best"
<azonenberg>
With 8 you can do SGS [core] P-G [core] SGS
<awygle>
stripline for dayz
<azonenberg>
And have planar capacitance AND nice close reference planes
<awygle>
8 is nice
<awygle>
someday i'll get to use it
<awygle>
i have done half a board on 8 layers
<azonenberg>
my old switch board was 8
<azonenberg>
i never finished or fabbed it
<awygle>
and then the senior engineer snapped up the fun assignment :p
<awygle>
oh i also routed the power nets for a "senior engineer" who did _everything else first_ without _any_ planning on a _sepic controller_
<awygle>
"feedback nets run right over plane splits? what could go wrong?"
<azonenberg>
lol
<azonenberg>
i bet they weren't even differential sense lines
<awygle>
pff no
<awygle>
not even a little bit
<awygle>
also, not strictly related, but i went three years and something like 4 designs using current sense resistors before i learned how to properly Kelvin sense one
<awygle>
>> {Day changed to Friday, April 27, 2018}
<awygle>
whelp time for bed
<awygle>
thanks for validating my convictions
<awygle>
night
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* felix_
wonders if anyone of you will be at defcon. /me plans to be there and to spend some days in the bay area afterwards
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<rqou>
so many people obsessed with VGA on a programmable logic device (on birbsite)
<rqou>
azonenberg: want to try to golf a VGA demo thing onto an XC2C32A?
<rqou>
felix_: i expect to be there
<asy>
rqou: VGA is a bit more visual than LEDs I guess
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<rqou>
maybe?
<rqou>
honestly vga is really really simple
<asy>
I agree.
<asy>
But a lot of fpga dev boards have an fpga connector and everyone has a monitor with a VGA connector, so it's quite easy to play with.
<qu1j0t3>
rqou | honestly vga is really really simple // it could still take a noob a few weekends to get it working. for that matter, getting blinking LED can take a few weekends (given the parlous state of toolchains etc. :D)
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<q3k>
vga has always been my favourite thing to demo on fpgas
<q3k>
because once you understand the problem, you immediately realize how powerful an fpga is for this sort of task, and how shitty a uc would be
<q3k>
and then, when you start doing something eith this output (ie. a simple pong game or sprite engine) you realize that you'd really want a cpu to control the entities on screen :D
<q3k>
and the whole thing is simple enough to cobble together that you can get there in one heavy-ish fpga course for people with zero knowledge
<qu1j0t3>
^
<implr>
yes this. the one semester fpga course for CS students at my uni starts with 'what is a logic gate' and one option for the final project is a vga game
<rqou>
heh
<rqou>
we started with "what is a logic gate" and ended with a pipelined CPU
<rqou>
in the middle we also did FSMs, timing analysis, FO4, and a bunch of other stuff
<rqou>
(afaik this course has since been revised due to having way too much material)
<sorear>
multi-issue or bust
<implr>
yeah, that was an elective that was kinda meant to be easy to pass
<Ultrasauce>
man at my uni it was a fucking washing machine controller
<implr>
anyways, that course died because the guy who ran it didn't have time, we're attempting to revive it
<implr>
but it seems we will be stuck with shitty spartan3 basyses programmable only by ISE :/
<implr>
why no ice40 student devboards ;_;
<Bike>
my fpga intro course ended with vga but only like, displaying lines or something. i feel weak
<whitequark>
rqou: i kinda envy your courses they sound fun
<whitequark>
but on the other hand, i'd have to go to $FANCY_SCHOOL and i hate fancy institutions
<whitequark>
also it's probably expensive af and youre gonna be in debt until retirement now
<rqou>
not so fun when things don't work :P
<rqou>
um... this school isn't quite that fancy
<rqou>
it's still a public university after all
<Ultrasauce>
mine didnt even work ~:(
<whitequark>
meh, i'm patient. there's been multiple occasions in my career when like, my superiors tried to fix some tech and gave up, in some cases literally throwing it at a wall or something
<whitequark>
and then i just applied a little patience and it worked
<whitequark>
(this should show you why i rarely have any frustration with compilers. if it's not gcc. gcc is fubar)
<Bike>
patience seems to solve a lot of engineering problems
<whitequark>
most of them imo
<whitequark>
also people problems
<whitequark>
though i hate people more than compilers
<Bike>
people have more interesting secretions
<whitequark>
lewd
<Ultrasauce>
ld gets pretty sticky if you stroke it just right
<whitequark>
ew
<whitequark>
this sounds even worse if you know russian
<rqou>
but but but whitequark, if you apply patience, how can you deliver disruptive minimum viable products? :P
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<rqou>
no capital for you :P
<whitequark>
good. i dont want capital
<Bike>
sounds like you don't want social either thinking emoji
<whitequark>
i dont want it but i have to get it
<awygle>
rqou: berkeley is 100% capable of putting you into debt until retirement
<awygle>
it costs 28,000$ a year in tuition alone
<awygle>
(under the comical assumption that tuition will not rise in the next four years)
<rqou>
yeah, well private universities cost even more
<awygle>
i may have occasional beef with my parents but i'm incredibly grateful for them putting me through school
<awygle>
especially since by going to UCB instead of UCSB i quadrupled the total costs
<rqou>
O_o
<rqou>
really?
<awygle>
UCSB currently is 12,630$ per year in tuition
<awygle>
and i was offered a 5k/yr scholarship
<awygle>
so, close
<rqou>
wow
<rqou>
meanwhile my sister is currently attending Cornell, so...
<rqou>
inb4 "wtf r we doing as a country?"
<gruetzkopf>
and here i'm in germany and my cost of education is sub 300€/semester, including public transport ticket
<awygle>
you know what's super weird to me?
<awygle>
sometimes i'll see people (i think kc8apf said something like this recently) talk about university as though it has a purpose other than helping you get a good job
<awygle>
and i don't understand that mindset at all
<Bike>
hypothetically, someone could learn something
<awygle>
yeah but it's not like you have to be in a university to learn something
<cr1901_modern>
I certainly wasn't going to kick my own ass into doing something w/ myself when I was 18, so uni was good for me in that respect.
<Ultrasauce>
i'd say the assumption that it generally prepares people for the job market also requires challenging
<awygle>
and information is ~free, or should be
<awygle>
Ultrasauce: well, that's also fair, but it's always seemed to me that that _should_ be what it does
<Ultrasauce>
it should do a lot of stuff
<awygle>
sometimes i try to imagine a world where i could feel the way some people obviously do about university, and it's a very different world than the one i live in. sounds nice though.
<cr1901_modern>
awygle: Tbf, I went into EE b/c of job prospects, not b/c it was what I wanted to do (I didn't want to do anything really). I didn't even know how to program until the summer just before I went to uni. It's a happy coincidence that I ended up enjoying it.
<whitequark>
awygle: i disagree
<whitequark>
theres no way i can learn microfabrication outside of an university
<whitequark>
or experimental molecular biology
<whitequark>
learning modern organic chemistry is borderline possible but extremely challenging
<Ultrasauce>
it certainly fits the bill for actual academic pursuits....the whole 'pipeline' thing is the problematic bit
<whitequark>
cr1901_modern: i didn't do anything in uni lol
<cr1901_modern>
whitequark: We didn't even learn microfab _in_ Uni :P. Oh, there was a class, but none of us took it seriously (it's not like my uni had a fab).
<whitequark>
cr1901_modern: well you're all stupid then
<awygle>
whitequark: i understand what you're saying, but university isn't a sustainable way to do those things long term, while a job in those fields is, so i guess i still see it as "help you get a good job"
<cr1901_modern>
whitequark: 21 year old me regrets it, nothing I can I do to change it :(
<whitequark>
wtf you're young
<cr1901_modern>
err, 27 year old me*
<cr1901_modern>
27 year old me regrets 21 year old me not taking the class seriously
<rqou>
whitequark: i had that same reaction when i found out how old you were :P
<whitequark>
rqou: but i'm old
<cr1901_modern>
whitequark: Yeah typo, I turn 28 in a month lol
<rqou>
whitequark: i thought you were ~the same age as me?
<whitequark>
rqou: wasted all my youth etc
<whitequark>
i have no idea what your age is rqou
<rqou>
this was brought up a long time ago
<rqou>
i was born in '94
<whitequark>
oh
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<cr1901_modern>
whitequark: "i didn't do anything in uni lol" Were you just immediately bored w/ it?
<Bike>
it's reasonably common to work in a lab during undergrad, which is kind of like having a job. sometimes you even get paid
<Bike>
so there's a, i don't know, concentrating aspect there
<awygle>
cr1901_modern: woo we're temporarily the same age
<Bike>
in my program everyone was informally expected to do so as classes were not considered adequate
<cr1901_modern>
Drexel's known for its co-ops for that
<awygle>
i worked in a lab where i shot stuff with lasers
<whitequark>
cr1901_modern: no i had untreated bipolar disorder, which made actually studying mostly impossible
<awygle>
it was not my priority and in retrospect was essentially a huge waste of time
<cr1901_modern>
Oh I'm sorry :(
<cr1901_modern>
Bike: Although when I was in Uni, Drexel was also known for being "behind the times" wrt their engineering curriculum (this is based on my peers at the time, Idk if it's still true).
<Bike>
what i was studying moved fast enough that all the textbooks etc were inevitably years out of date
<Bike>
as for mental health, based on what i did in school versus what i've done sense, the structure was good for me, i guess :v
<Bike>
since
<cr1901_modern>
Bike: Ditto in some respects. But I knew months before I stopped the grad school program that I wasn't going to finish
<whitequark>
the school wasn't actually particularly bad for mental health
<whitequark>
it's more uh
<Bike>
i mean i know what you mean
<whitequark>
i haven't even seriously considered that i can have BDII
<Bike>
i took like a year off and stared at a wall
<whitequark>
it was just tuesday to me
<Bike>
yeah heh
<whitequark>
i thought everyone has these mood swings
<Bike>
what do you mean this isn't how emotions work
<whitequark>
and just copes somehow
<Ultrasauce>
definitely would have learned next to dickall from my cs program if i hadn't been employed by the department
<whitequark>
i've learned a lot from uni that i actually use regularly
<whitequark>
like most of the basics of neuropharmacology go from there, and they've been immensely handy
<Ultrasauce>
which was just "hey we got funding to do this industry partnership project. fuck off and flounder until you build this thing"
<whitequark>
or the basic chemistry knowledge
<Bike>
lab was mostly a sausage factory thing for me. "wait, we're seriously going to write a paper on this? it doesn't seem that original" [PI looks at me like i have three heads]
<whitequark>
mmmm, sausages
* whitequark
goes to the fridge
<awygle>
i feel that way about everything, and i feel like it's holding me back professionally
<awygle>
anything i understand is "obvious" or "trivial"
<Ultrasauce>
Bike you noped out of neuroscience to go EE or something along those lines right?
<cr1901_modern>
awygle: That's most of us :P
<rqou>
awygle: wtf you are definitely a clone of me :P
<Bike>
Ultrasauce: i noped out of CS to do computational neuroscience, which in practice was neuroscience with an EE minor
<rqou>
or maybe berkeley just attracts the same types of people
<whitequark>
awgyle's code is much less hacky though :p
<Ultrasauce>
ah got it backwards
<whitequark>
awygle* sorry
<awygle>
aww thanks whitequark
<cr1901_modern>
AWG yle wire
<whitequark>
awygle: btw cypress finally responded with footprint... let's call it information
* awygle
shoves some of his uglier work further under the bed with his foot
<whitequark>
hahaha
<Bike>
transistor physics is way easier when you already learned drift diffusion in biology
<cr1901_modern>
The equations aren't hard either. It just piles upon so. much. stuff (like the 8 different currents through a PN junction) at once.
<awygle>
"here are a couple of helpful items" that's optimistic
<awygle>
the use of "oval" for "obround" in kicad really annoys me
<awygle>
(apropos of very little)
<whitequark>
yeah, it's silly
<awygle>
like, an oval is a thing that exists. a rounded rectangle is not an oval. whine whine complain.
<whitequark>
no, this isn't just whining, it's a meaningful complaint
<whitequark>
I was confused by this too
<whitequark>
it needs to be changed
<awygle>
unfortunately it's in the file format so it'd be a breaking change
<awygle>
at least there
<whitequark>
fixing it in the UI is still good
<awygle>
agreed
<awygle>
why don't EDA tools let you specify PTHs by annular ring instead of pad size?
<awygle>
that's what you care about 99% of the time
<whitequark>
because EDA
<whitequark>
"In common English, the term [oval] is used in a broader sense: any shape which reminds one of an egg."
<whitequark>
what
<awygle>
lamo
<whitequark>
"Oval definition, having the general form, shape, or outline of an egg; egg-shaped."
<whitequark>
oh wtf
<whitequark>
it
<whitequark>
it's derived from ovum
<Ultrasauce>
oh i guess if you look at the root..yeah
<cr1901_modern>
._.
<Bike>
i've never heard of this
<Ultrasauce>
thanks natural language
<Bike>
using "oval" to mean egglike i mean
<Bike>
if there's an egg shape people say "an egg shape"
<Bike>
eggish
<awygle>
huh, based on the wikipedia example image a rounded rectangle is an oval
<awygle>
i definitely think of it as an ellipsoid though
<whitequark>
not really
<whitequark>
n technical drawing, an oval is a figure constructed from two pairs of arcs, with two different radii (see image on the right).
<awygle>
whitequark: i was looking at the speed skating rink
<awygle>
although irritatingly that page is covered in spoilers -_-
<whitequark>
awygle: i like all ten
<whitequark>
in different ways
<cr1901_modern>
well I didn't take a look, just in case I ever read it.
<awygle>
whitequark: i like all ten too, but only the first 5 make it onto "favorite books"
<whitequark>
the second five are an interesting take on computing
<awygle>
yes, but i really liked the mystery of the first five. the second five try too hard to explain stuff, imo.
<whitequark>
they're much more... epic in proportions, though
<awygle>
really? i guess i can see that in some ways but i felt like they made the universe a lot smaller.
<awygle>
and the special people less special
<awygle>
i should listen to the audiobooks again... there are full-text recordings read by Zelazny for almost all of them
<cr1901_modern>
Assuming I ever get around to it, the next book I want to read is Dune. Yea, I know I should've read it by now.
<awygle>
Dune is good but i can't articulate why? and i've bounced off of Dune Messiah at least thrice
<whitequark>
awygle: well... yes
<Ultrasauce>
now there is a series that goes downhill
<cr1901_modern>
Ppl pity me b/c I saw the movie first.
<awygle>
i actually love the David Lynch Dune
<whitequark>
awygle: also did you know that Corwin apparently means "raven's friend"
<whitequark>
isn't it ironic
<awygle>
whitequark: i did not! that's fascinating, in what language?
<whitequark>
anglosaxon
<Bike>
cor like corvid?
<whitequark>
i... think so?
<Bike>
shit, is that germanic
<awygle>
that's super cool
<Bike>
wiktionary doesn't have etymology, fuck
<whitequark>
awygle: poor hugi
<awygle>
if i ever write a fantasy novel TCoA will be one of the three biggest influences on it
<Ultrasauce>
from latin corvus
<awygle>
whitequark: mm... yes and no lol
<Bike>
hm
<awygle>
i loved the character but i'm not sure sympathy was my response
<Bike>
i hope this isn't another situation like "squid" where the word origin is just a fuckin mystery
<Bike>
crow is germanic
<whitequark>
awygle: waiting from the beginning of time just to be eaten by some guy
<awygle>
whitequark: he seemed so happy about it though! or like, anticipatory of it at least
<awygle>
like "sweet, purpose fulfilled"
<whitequark>
awygle: it's pretty grim
<awygle>
apparently there's an in-work TV series
<awygle>
not sure how i feel about that
<whitequark>
*series*? that might be good
<whitequark>
the Dark Tower movie was... underwhelming
<whitequark>
like they should've turned it into thirty or forty episode series, that *might* have been good
<awygle>
i have so much Dark Tower related rage
<awygle>
i didn't see the movie though
<whitequark>
it's not a *bad* movie
<awygle>
i like Idris Elba
<whitequark>
idris elba is a good fit for roland deschain
<whitequark>
it's just too short and condensed
<awygle>
not sure i'd have cast Mconaughey for Flagg
<awygle>
(not sure i can spell mcconaughey
<whitequark>
Childe Roland to the Dark Tower Came, Not
<awygle>
fun fact, my first exposure to that was in Chronicles of Amber
<awygle>
the Dark Tower series is the absolute culmination of Stephen King as a writer, including unfortunately his absolute inability to write a compelling ending
<whitequark>
that was a *good* ending I will fight you
<whitequark>
I've read The Dark Tower as a child and it scarred me for life
<whitequark>
it was an excellent fucking ending
<awygle>
did you read past the note that was like "hey stop here, you'll just be mad"
<whitequark>
of course
<awygle>
well he was right :p
<whitequark>
no I wasn't mad
<whitequark>
it broke me instead
<awygle>
i was angry
<awygle>
both for myself and for roland
<whitequark>
the suffering must continue eternally
<awygle>
i wonder if there are any people in the world who actually stopped at that note
<awygle>
i have a hard time imagining it
* cr1901_modern
reads a synopsis of The Dark Tower and sees analogues to some good VNs he's read ._.
<awygle>
lol
<Bike>
i like the poem
<awygle>
see the Turtle, ain't he keen, all things serve the fuckin' Beam
<cr1901_modern>
spoiler-free synopsis*, btw. Though I don't plan on reading it right now.
<whitequark>
Bike: i'm reading it in english now
<whitequark>
it's... remarkable
<Bike>
as opposed to what
<whitequark>
oh, i've read both the dark tower and the chronicles of amber in translation
<whitequark>
to russian that is
<whitequark>
makes it kinda annoying to discuss because all the names are weird
<Bike>
do you mean you're reading the poem or the books, cos i haven't read the books
<whitequark>
i've only read both the poem and the books in russian before this moment
<whitequark>
now i'm reading the poem in english
<Bike>
huh
<Bike>
poetry in translation seems kind of bad, but i don't actually know anything but english, so
<Bike>
in the poem when he sees it he recognizes the hills first
<whitequark>
Bike: depends on the translator, really
<whitequark>
for example, there's Alice in Wonderland, there are at least four translations to Russian and I've read them all
<whitequark>
every one except Nina Demurova's one is awful
<Bike>
in high school i read a book on translating poetry and it mentioned nabokov translated eugene onegin as english prose after railing on other translations for missing whatever aspect
<Bike>
that just sounds so unfortunate
<whitequark>
but Demurova's? it doesn't even count as a translation imo, it's a work on its own right
<whitequark>
also, it comes with commentary, and there was at least as much commentary as the book
<Bike>
i like how people translate jabberwocky
<whitequark>
oh the translation of jabberwocky to russian is excellent
<whitequark>
Варкалось. Хливкие шорьки пырялись по наве / И хрюкотали зелюки, как мюмзики в мове
<Bike>
i mean i guess the "own work" thing is kind of the deal
<Bike>
there's like probably no way you can preserve both the prosody and the meaning anyway
<whitequark>
that's Dina Orlovskaya's translation though though
<whitequark>
Nina Demurova only did the prose
<Bike>
right
<whitequark>
and like
<whitequark>
I've read it next to the original
<whitequark>
nothing of value was lost
<Bike>
not that something of value was lost, but it was replaced with something of roughly equivalent value?
<cr1901_modern>
Jabberwocky => Barmaglot?
<whitequark>
it's a significantly different work with obvious parallels, but russian is a significantly different language with obvious parallels
<whitequark>
yeah
<rqou>
what the heck i step away for a bit and now it's openfpga literature club?
<q3k>
there's also multiple alice in wonderland translations in polish
<q3k>
because nobody knew what the fuck to do about it
<Bike>
i think my favorite translation i read was the cyberiad because it has a story about a machine that destroys things that are named beginning with a particular letter (i forget which letter in the original)
* rqou
needs to become more fluent in more languages
<q3k>
(including one by korwin-mikke, dear dog)
<Bike>
in english it's the letter "n" and they try to destroy "natrium" and the machine's like fuck you man, it's salt
<Bike>
sodium rather
<whitequark>
the most amusing alice in wonderland translation is Marshak's
<whitequark>
it has anvilicious moralizing about bourgeoisie
<Bike>
nice
<whitequark>
also he missed most of the jokes *so badly* that i could see it just from reading the russian translation
<Bike>
wasn't carroll bourgeosie
<whitequark>
having never seen the original that is
<cr1901_modern>
>now it's openfpga literature club? <-- Where's Monika when you need her?
<rqou>
whitequark plz 2 teach me Russian? :P
<q3k>
cr1901_modern: *twitch*
<whitequark>
which is ... just how do you fail so badly
<whitequark>
rqou: ok
<whitequark>
idk how though
<rqou>
wait really?
<whitequark>
sure
<Bike>
cmon whitequark, you've read manga probably. you know how bad it gets
<cr1901_modern>
q3k: Just Monika :)
<whitequark>
Bike: i haven't seen fansubbers *quite* as dedicated as Nina Demurova, but some come close
<whitequark>
or fan translation groups etc
<whitequark>
oh wow she's still alive
<Bike>
i meant they get pretty bad
<whitequark>
i should send her a postcard or something
<Bike>
thatd be cool to get
<Bike>
translators are underappreciated
<whitequark>
much less translators so good they stand on equal footing with Carroll himself
<whitequark>
hahaha, apparently Nina's Alice was only published accidentally
<whitequark>
it didn't satisfy the party officials
<Bike>
how do you accidentally... oh, right.
<awygle>
it's always amusing/annoying when i'm watching subbed anime and i hear the japanese and i'm like "hey, that's not right, you totally missed the joke!"
<whitequark>
yeah I've seen some absurdly bad translations
<whitequark>
this is my main gripe with rutracker, few torrents have english subs in them
<whitequark>
and russian ones are just
<awygle>
the FLCL dub is a fascinating translation because it's _mostly_ really good but there's that one joke about mackrel where they just give up
<whitequark>
well let's say people translate the english subtiles
<whitequark>
don't get me started on russian dub
<whitequark>
google "cuba77"
<rqou>
Cantonese dubs are awful too btw
<rqou>
there's basically only two voices
<whitequark>
(if you do google "cuba77" I suggest getting blackout drunk afterwards)
<Bike>
people do that with english. they'll translate based on spanish scanlations or whatnot
<cr1901_modern>
whitequark: Lemme guess, the russian dub is based on the english subtitles?
<Bike>
and then maybe the spanish ones were based on the chinese
<rqou>
generic male voice and generic female voice
<awygle>
ah yeah i get that jp->spanish->english thing all the time
<awygle>
i used to just read the spanish, it was usually less offensive
<rqou>
i thought that a lot of scanlations were jp->zh_TW->en?
<Bike>
there are many roads
* whitequark
imagines jp->zh_TW->en->ru
<whitequark>
this would explain a lot
<cr1901_modern>
I've heard of an Portuguese->English dictionary that was written by two French ppl who simply took the Portuguese->French version and then hired someone to take that French version to english
<Bike>
jp->zh_TW->es->en->ru
<Bike>
english as she is spoke
<cr1901_modern>
IIRC, hedgehogs were classified as a species of fish
<whitequark>
indeed
<awygle>
lmao
<Bike>
i've seen bits of it, it's pretty incredible
<Bike>
they missed that english doesn't have grammatical gender
<cr1901_modern>
All the cuba77 links are in Russian...
<Bike>
given that this is from a pt-fr book, i guess these are probably mangled french idioms. necessity has no law is apparently from latin, so that's reasonable. dunno about the land of the blind one
<Bike>
yeah, it's also latin
<rqou>
btw, are people here familiar with the Chinese character 干 and how much "fun" it (historically) caused?
<Bike>
in regione caecorum rex est luscus
<awygle>
that's the only one i actually got
<Bike>
rqou: i'm not
<whitequark>
Nina says that she reads King's Messenger being imprisoned as a metaphor for stalinism
<whitequark>
cheerful
<lain>
I'll just be happy when I can read manga
<rqou>
干 is a simplified character that absorbed several different characters that had similar sounds
<awygle>
i got a gift of ~50 japanese study books last week
<Bike>
a shield, to ask, to offend, to interfere, bank of a river, and a tetagram from the Taixuanjing
<awygle>
hopefully i'll actually do something
<rqou>
one existing word it absorbed meant "dried"
<rqou>
another existing word it absorbed meant "to do a thing"
<rqou>
this word had a slang meaning of what you might expect
<lain>
awygle: nice
<rqou>
but there was some automatic translation software at one point that really liked that slang definition
<rqou>
so now you know how the chinglish "to fuck the fruit" comes about :P
<Bike>
oh yeah, i remember that one
<Bike>
i'm learning
* awygle
recalls Bag Fuck fondly
<lain>
XD
<rqou>
awygle: wait...
<whitequark>
rqou: celestial emporium of benevolent knowledge etc
<rqou>
awygle: bootleg Pokemon Crystal?
<awygle>
rqou: up
<awygle>
*yup
<Bike>
that was an actual joke, does it count
<rqou>
wtf
<rqou>
awygle you must be a clone of me
<awygle>
rqou: that was like, really popular, lots of people have heard of Bag Fuck
<rqou>
i actually had it
<rqou>
in physical cartridge form
<rqou>
not a rom
<awygle>
o dang
<awygle>
i just watched it on youtube
<awygle>
i barely even played Actual Crystal
<rqou>
idk if i still have or can find it though
<awygle>
even though gen 2 is best gen
<awygle>
someday i'll play X/Y and Sun/Moon
<azonenberg>
awygle: and ORAS?
<awygle>
azonenberg: i didn't play ORAS but i played RSE
<rqou>
azonenberg get back to work :P
<awygle>
so i'm not super torn up about it
<awygle>
i did play B/W
<awygle>
but not B2/W2
<awygle>
i actually thought B/W was really good
<awygle>
i made it most but not all of the way through Platinum
* awygle
is really tempted to add Rust to this project
<rqou>
Rust 8051 when :P
<rqou>
or is this not for Glasgow?
<awygle>
no, it's a work thing
<awygle>
it already works in python
<whitequark>
rust 8051 never
<awygle>
but i want to rewrite it in rust for no reason at all
<whitequark>
the arch is just too fucked
<rqou>
also, ime Rust already beats bare C just for the collections
<awygle>
well yeah, course
<whitequark>
bare C
<rqou>
C++ does have STL though, which i guess works
* whitequark
stares at rqou
<rqou>
whitequark: as in, without some bloatware framework
* whitequark
stares at rqou
<rqou>
e.g. Gnome crap
<oeuf>
rqou: oh hey some linguistics happened here too
<awygle>
there's no reason to rewrite my python+cairo application in rust though, except "fun"
<rqou>
o/ oeuf
oeuf is now known as egg|egg
<whitequark>
egg: are you summoned by linguistics or something
<rqou>
or whitequark: how about COM? :P
<whitequark>
what's the problem with COM
<whitequark>
it's just a formalization of vtables
<whitequark>
and it's less insane than actual C++ vtables
<awygle>
my brain tried to read that as "copy on " and then threw up a bunch of options for "M" the most comical of which was "moose"
<whitequark>
copy on move
<whitequark>
that's actual c++ semantics i think
<egg|egg>
rqou: 𒂄𒈬
<egg|egg>
whitequark: not yet
<whitequark>
egg|egg: what
<egg|egg>
for now only numerics has the power of egg-summoning
<rqou>
whitequark: COM also includes a bunch of weird marshalling and threading-related-stuff
<awygle>
don't COM objects have to be registered globally?
<rqou>
idk
<whitequark>
oh god never mention multithreaded apartments
<awygle>
hahaha
<rqou>
yeah that stuff
<rqou>
i have no idea how it works
<whitequark>
i d on't think anyone does except like
<whitequark>
raymond chen
<rqou>
i just know Raymond Chen wrote a whole bunch of stuff about how to do it wrong
<whitequark>
<3 old new thing
<awygle>
yeah i love raymond chen
<whitequark>
remember that time someone was wrong in comments and so he went and dug out tape backups of emm386.exe sources or something
<egg|egg>
apartments? have they co-opted the terminology of tits buildings?
<rqou>
com is also somehow connected to Windows message loops