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<openfpga-github> [openfpga] azonenberg commented on issue #59: Somewhere on the github.io page maybe? https://git.io/vyTvc
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<rqou> wow, I'm actually using a raspberry pi for the first time and it's slooooow
<rqou> (borrowed from my housemates)
<cr1901_modern> which version?
<rqou> it says "Raspberry Pi 2 Model B 1GB"
<rqou> although the GUI feels really fast and snappy
<cr1901_modern> I thought RPi Model A 256MB was fine, even the GUI. But compiling gcc took 3 days lmao
<cr1901_modern> I had to- and a nontrivial chunk of that was genautomata
<rqou> somehow all the ARM boards I've ever owned have been technically superior but ended up on the wrong side of the popularity contest
<cr1901_modern> RPi is the Broadcom devboard
<rqou> yeah but e.g. I have a PandaBoard ES rather than a BeagleBone Black
<rqou> and I have a Jetson TX1 rather than a Chromebook/SHIELD
<cr1901_modern> I'm curious about Asus' RPi clone
<rqou> so far the raspi feels (subjectively, no benchmarks) slower than qemu-user
<rqou> (qemu-user is then running on a budget Intel Kaby Lake Pentium)
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<rqou> not sure how much raspi slowness is a slow SD card and how much is a slow cpu
<pie_> analog curcuits are hard
<pie_> circuits
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<rqou> whitequark/azonenberg: got a "blink" smoke test for gp4par?
<openfpga-github> [openfpga] rqou opened issue #68: Every other invocation of gp4prog fails on Raspbian https://git.io/vyTti
<azonenberg> rqou: the "blinky" test case should qualify
<azonenberg> it blinks a bunch of stuff
<openfpga-github> [logtools] rqou opened pull request #2: Correctly include <string> header (master...master) https://git.io/vyTtp
<rqou> announcement: I have started doing binary builds of yosys+icestorm+arachne-pnr+openfpga for convenience
<rqou> work-in-progress for now
<azonenberg> rqou: how about you add azonenberg/yosys to there
<azonenberg> in addition to clifford's version
<azonenberg> My fork is the authoritative synthesis tool for openfpga purposes
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<azonenberg> it may be missing new enhancements clifford put in mainline, but is guaranteed to always have the latest greenpak cell library
<azonenberg> clifford pulls my changes periodically but sometimes my fork is the only one that will properly synthesize openfpga code
<azonenberg> (if using new features at least)
<rqou> arrgh
<rqou> need more compute power :P
<rqou> yosys is by far the most computationally expensive project to build
<rqou> hmm, you're actually behind yosys master right now
<azonenberg> Yeah i merge every week or so
<openfpga-github> [yosys] azonenberg pushed 2 new commits to master: https://git.io/vyTqX
<openfpga-github> yosys/master 931d775 Clifford Wolf: Merge pull request #322 from azonenberg/master...
<openfpga-github> yosys/master 7af9727 Clifford Wolf: Add "write_smt2 -stbv"
<rqou> going to have to figure out how to compile them to different directories
<rqou> eh for now i'll just blindly build your version along with the normal one
<rqou> but you can't install both
<azonenberg> Ok
<azonenberg> and yeah right now i'm installing my fork only
<azonenberg> i just pull clifford's version every time i think about it
<azonenberg> merge his changes
<azonenberg> then push up to the fork
<rqou> i wonder if my raspbian builds are faster or slower than doing the build on an actual raspberry pi?
<rqou> alright, time to figure out everybody's favorite operating system, windoze :P
<rqou> and after that will be trying to upstream my build system hax
<rqou> ugh every time i use libusb i feel dirty
<azonenberg> rqou: this is why i prefer sockets for interfacing to hardware
<rqou> i'm referring to the libusb hostile takeover: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3v48C08bFxI
<azonenberg> o_O
<rqou> and the new maintainer makes tarbombs, awesome
<azonenberg> ...
<rqou> tarbombs extract to your current directory rather than a new subdirectory
<rqou> opening one in your home folder is always fun
<azonenberg> lol yeeeah
<azonenberg> i always make subdirs when opening a source tree from a project i dont work with routinely
<azonenberg> just in case there's a tarbomb
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<nats`> plop
<rqou> azonenberg:
<rqou> $ ls bin/
<rqou> gp4par.exe gp4prog.exe libgpdevboard.a libgreenpak4.a liblog.a libxbpar.a
<rqou> not sure if it works or not
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<openfpga-github> [openfpga] rqou opened issue #69: gp4prog times out too quickly switching modes on Windows https://git.io/vyT3i
<openfpga-github> [openfpga] rqou opened issue #70: gp4prog: Don't try to detach kernel driver on Windows https://git.io/vyTsv
<rqou> so yeah, smoke testing on Windows actually works
<rqou> no builds tonight though
<rqou> need to fight with yosys on windows
<rqou> and i need to readjust my sleep, so i'm going to bed
<rqou> and amazingly, this is a cross-build
<cr1901_modern> Detach kernel driver? What do you mean?
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<rqou> so libusb is supposed to allow accessing USB devices from userspace
<rqou> but you can only do that if the kernel isn't trying to use the device at the same time
<cr1901_modern> right, you need a special kernel driver to do it
<rqou> only on Windows
<rqou> so what happens is
<rqou> on Linux, USB devices are accessible in /dev as files
<rqou> some special command disables the kernel driver for a particular device, signalled through the /dev file
<cr1901_modern> oh that's cool!
<rqou> on Mac, IOKit somehow has something that exposes USB devices similar to Linux
<cr1901_modern> On Windows I just uninstall the kernel driver and always access through libusbk.sys
<cr1901_modern> erm, the default* kernel driver
<rqou> but this will be overridden by more-specific drivers
<rqou> so on Mac if an existing driver is claiming some device you want
<rqou> you need a "codeless next" with even higher priority
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<rqou> that then does nothing and lets the normal IOKit logic happen
<rqou> on Windows you always need to load a specific driver
<cr1901_modern> "codeless next"?
<rqou> *kext
<rqou> damn autocorrect
<rqou> kernel extension
<cr1901_modern> "on Windows you always need to load a specific driver" <-- this is presumably referring to libusbK.sys
<cr1901_modern> I only load the driver once; when I'm installing the device
<rqou> yeah, but in this case we can use the windows built-in HID driver
<rqou> although iceprog is going to be fun
<rqou> iceprog uses libftdi
<rqou> so you need to replace the normal FTDI driver with libusb
<nats`> Zadig
<cr1901_modern> libftdi certainly does need libusb
<cr1901_modern> This seems like a lot of code for little benefit. Installing a libusb driver isn't that big of a deal. Those on Windoze are aware the driver situation is screwy
<cr1901_modern> (and yes, libwdi/Zadig has done a lot to alleviate the pain)
<cr1901_modern> The guy who wrote libwdi has gone to great lengths to make distributing libusb compat code as painless as possible
<cr1901_modern> rqou: Thanks for the info on how Linux does it. I've been wondering how it works for a while/never looked it up :P
<cr1901_modern> Always great when someone else does it for me :D
<rqou> although FTDI on Mac is even more awesome nowadays
<rqou> Apple has a kext, but the FTDI blob userspace can't use it
<rqou> the FTDI blob userspace uses the IOKit mechanism
<cr1901_modern> Why is a "codeless kext" sufficient to get libusb to talk directly to the USB device?
<rqou> so even the official proprietary blob requires some stupid kextunload
<rqou> a "codeless kext" can match with a higher priority than the normal kernel driver
<rqou> so the normal kernel driver doesn't load
<cr1901_modern> right, but a "codeless kext" still is a driver for a device that takes up resources?
<rqou> but because the new kext you added doesn't have any code
<rqou> it falls back to the IOKit default handling
<cr1901_modern> oh...
<rqou> IOKit has some complicated logic for selecting drivers to load
<rqou> governed by XML files :P
<cr1901_modern> so libusb relies on that fallback for any of the data it wants to send to get through?
<rqou> yeah
<cr1901_modern> As for the windows situation, I think documenting/linking to Zadig is a better idea than using the HID to keep the source base clean.
<cr1901_modern> A lot of boards using FTDI chips, and a lot of programmers use libftdi
<rqou> er, the greenpak board uses HID
<rqou> the Lattice boards use FTDI/Zadig/whatever
<cr1901_modern> ahhh, so leave the lattice boards/iceprog alone, change Greenpak
<cr1901_modern> that's prob fair. That's up to azonenberg of course. It's going to be less code on Windoze, and not require a special driver. But will it integrate well into the codebase (that's his call)?
<rqou> er, what?
<rqou> you just need to comment out one line to make gp4prog work
<rqou> iceprog is a much bigger mess
<rqou> I'll explain more tomorrow, going to sleep
<cr1901_modern> "We actually want to use the Windows native HID driver because libusb knows how to talk to that." <-- oh... I did not know this
<cr1901_modern> I also apparently didn't read
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<openfpga-github> [logtools] whitequark closed pull request #2: Correctly include <string> header (master...master) https://git.io/vyTtp
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<qu1j0t3> this is awesome pie_ [wartime crystal manufacture] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iy23Us3nrX8
<pie_> ithink i still have a few vids from you i need to watch
<pie_> lol, "paizoelectric"
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<openfpga-github> [openfpga] azonenberg pushed 1 new commit to master: https://git.io/vyTwM
<openfpga-github> openfpga/master 9f773c1 Andrew Zonenberg: Updated to latest logtools
<azonenberg> cr1901_modern, rqou: keep in mind also that right now libjtaghal uses the blob libftd2xx
<azonenberg> i had reliability issues with libftdi, dont remember details
<azonenberg> If somebody wants to try porting my FTDIJtagInterface class to optionally use libftdi and test, i wont complain
<rqou> right, but iceprog doesn't
<azonenberg> Yeah what i mean is
<azonenberg> whatever system we come up with has to play nicely
<rqou> so now you need both
<azonenberg> incidentally this is one of the reasons that i a) used a custom usb PID for my jtag stuff, to avoid loading the default usb-serial driver etc
<azonenberg> and b) plan to deprecate FTDI usb-jtag for my projects in the long term
<azonenberg> basically as soon as i have a working starshipraider v0.1 alpha
<azonenberg> i'm going to purge my lab of ftdi :p
<azonenberg> and never look back
<rqou> ah you have a custom PID
<rqou> that helps you but not iceprog :P
<rqou> only Linux works sanely with having both libftdi and libftd2xx
<azonenberg> Yes i use 0403:8028
<azonenberg> and use ftd2xx on that
<azonenberg> I also support the Digilent API using whatever they use under the hood
<azonenberg> and my own Ethernet protocol
<azonenberg> Down the road i plan to consider digilent/ftd2xx back ends deprecated and keep them for compat only
<azonenberg> and have sockets to starshipraider or api-compatible boards be the primary back end
<rqou> I wonder why nobody wrote a thing that wraps libftd2xx and pretends to be libftdi
<azonenberg> or the other way around?
<azonenberg> No idea
<azonenberg> Right now i support the blob b/c it seems slightly less unreliable than the open tool
<azonenberg> but both are terrible
<azonenberg> the blob uses a massive amount of cpu per open handle... polling? not sure what else it could be doing
<azonenberg> having like six ftdi devices plugged into a beaglebone pegged the cpu
<azonenberg> without actaully sending any data
<rqou> wow you actually tested on ARM?
<azonenberg> Yes, the intent at the time was to have my beaglebone be the front-end / landing pad node for my fpga cluster
<azonenberg> that would go push jobs out to them for testing
<azonenberg> it just didnt have the horsepower
<azonenberg> My next-gen fpga cluster, which has been a LONG time coming but is sloooowly progressing
<azonenberg> will have a hardware accelerated management card that's basically a starshipraider minus the level shifters
<rqou> ah I see, but you weren't using yosys on ARM
<azonenberg> Yes, this was jtag only
<azonenberg> the build was running on an x86 cluster
<rqou> which works btw (icestorm flow)
<azonenberg> Doesnt surprise me, but i didnt want to wait until next week to get a compile done
<azonenberg> :p
<azonenberg> The big bottlenecks i had were ISE and yosys SAT/SMT solvers
<azonenberg> both of which would saturate many CPU cores without breaking a sweat
<rqou> if you poke around my Jenkins you might notice something interesting about the ARM build slave
<azonenberg> oh? qemu instance?
<rqou> oh I wasn't doing verification, just synthesis
<rqou> yeah it's qemu-user on an Intel processor :P
<rqou> might be not any slower than an actual RasPi
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<rqou> the osx slave is *also* a qemu instance (qemu-kvm)
<rqou> this is why the builds slow each other :P
<azonenberg> lol i see
<azonenberg> and yeah some of my current formal models will saturate an x86 core (yosys's default solver isnt parallelized) for 10+ minutes
<rqou> also I moved builds off of my linode onto my NAS thing
<rqou> because linode has no more RAM due to Minecraft :P
<azonenberg> Thats a lot faster than the old SAT solver, SMT is way better
<azonenberg> but still a cpu hog
<rqou> hmm, is there a parallelized one?
<rqou> I have 10 cores in my workstation
<azonenberg> I dont know but for my use case that isnt super duper important
<azonenberg> b/c i typically have many formal models
<azonenberg> and if i'm running several plus synth, par, and fpga testing
<azonenberg> i can easily saturate many cores even if i cant parallelize any one operation
<rqou> you should build a Broadwell Xeon/HEDT build machine like me
<azonenberg> So right now my desktop is a haswell i5 with 32GB of DDR3 and only one pcie x16 slot
<azonenberg> meaning i cant fit a 10g NIC and a nice GPU at the same time
<rqou> i5 -> not HEDT
<azonenberg> My near-mid term plan, like over the summer
<azonenberg> is to move that mobo and ram to a 2U case in the garage using an existing power supply and pxe boot it off my NAS
<rqou> you need a "X99" motherboard (for a "consumer" version)
<azonenberg> maybe stick a 10g nic in the empty slot since i wont need a gpu for the server version
<azonenberg> then replace my desktop guts with a dual socket broadwell xeon with 64-128GB of DDR4
<rqou> anyways, my unattended NAS+build machine is really slow
<rqou> it's a Kaby Lake Pentium :P
<azonenberg> When you have 32G of RAM and processes occasionally get oomkilled or fail to launch (like gimp working on large images)
<azonenberg> thats a sign you probably need to upgrade
<azonenberg> Anyway, that would leave me with more pcie slots on the desktop too
<azonenberg> so i could put a gpu and a 10g nic in it
<cr1901_modern> I don't see the need to change iceprog for Windows. It's going to be reimplementing a decent amount of code for little gain (not to mention I don't care for the blob)
<rqou> wow you're going for an actual real server chipset instead of me cheaping out on an X99 :P
<rqou> I'm running a dual-socket capable Xeon, but X99 can't support dual sockets AFAIK
<rqou> this is an unholy consumer+server mashup
<rqou> you can't do this anymore Skylake+
<azonenberg> yeah i have parts picked out that will do it right
<azonenberg> going ECC too
<balrog> any thoughts on AMD Ryzen?
<azonenberg> it would only cost me around $1K in guts
<balrog> (apparently all of their CPUs support ECC)
<balrog> I don't think they're doing dual socket yet but single socket 8C/16T for $499
<rqou> on my NAS I'm running a strange opposite of a consumer CPU on a server chipset
<rqou> apparently for strange product differentiation reasons you need the server chipset for ECC
<rqou> but the low end Pentium also has ECC enabled
<rqou> azonenberg: $1k in guts for a dual-socket Broadwell? how?
* azonenberg goes to look at newegg wishlist
<azonenberg> Newegg doesnt have the stuff in stock so i cant get a current price quote
<azonenberg> two E5-2630 v4 xeons
<azonenberg> but i had $271.99 for a supermicro MBD-X10SRA-O
<azonenberg> and a 4x 16GB DDR4 2133 ECC ram kit from kingston
<azonenberg> reusing existing case, psu, hdds, etc
<rqou> the E5-2630 v4 is already like $600
<azonenberg> (would have to check my psu has two cpus worth of 12V rail though... that would be a rude surprise if it didnt)
<rqou> that ram is also around $400 total
<rqou> it's looking more like $2k to me
<azonenberg> huh i could have misremembered
<azonenberg> either way that was the bom i was looking at at the time, but couldnt afford
<azonenberg> i periodically re-price my planned upgrades and buy when i can afford them
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<lain> nether partayyyy
<rqou> oh goddammit
<rqou> is it bugging out or did you do that on purpose?
<lain> I hadn't logged on to fpgacraft1 in ages, decided to take a peek... guessing this is a side-effect of chunkloading the nether portal
<lain> I lol'd
<rqou> hrmm probably
<lain> I'm just glad they weren't angry
<rqou> but it's hopefully not a corrupted chunk?
<whitequark> what in the everloving hell
<lain> what even is a corrupted chunk? :o
<whitequark> drop some TNT there
<whitequark> or a nuke
<rqou> as in, the actual file is corrupted
<balrog> no backup
<rqou> not a in-game corruption
<balrog> ?
<lain> oh, I have no idea
<rqou> there is a rolling backup of iirc 5 days?
<lain> I didn't notice anything else weird, other than the horde
* rqou reminds self again to open-source the management script
<rqou> so it's not melting my CPU so probably not a corrupted chunk
<lain> yeah I didn't notice any weird lag or anything
<rqou> yeah console has no "wrong location"
<rqou> probably just chunkloading
<lain> prolly just chunkload then
<lain> lul
<rqou> so i currently have a hypothesis that weird minecraft "impossible" bugs you see in forums might be caused by actual ram corruption
<lain> that wouldn't surprise me
<rqou> due to e.g. overheating and/or overclocked machines
<lain> especially since gamers are more likely to overclock, and overclocking drastically increases the odds of memory bit flips
<rqou> there are also lots of kids with crappy hand-me-downs and similar
<rqou> the other hypothesis is poking gpu driver bugs :P
<rqou> which then corrupt memory somehow
<lain> haha
<rqou> i mean, i've never hit a single one of the common "impossible" issues
<rqou> like "wrong location" corrupted chunks
<lain> https://dumptruck.lain.land/gits-iamthewall.webm I wonder if bugs like this are bit flips in ram, or just bad code :P
<azonenberg> on my old laptop
<azonenberg> i routinely (few times a week maybe?) would have a game crash
<azonenberg> at stock clocks
<azonenberg> so bad it took down the whole system
<azonenberg> shortly beforehand, i'd usually see a texture turning weird colors, or geometry going off to +/- inf in one axis or another
<azonenberg> pretty sure it was bad vram
<rqou> hmm, so firefox definitely seems to have lag/other crashy problems at 8g resident ram
<rqou> not sure why this amount exactly
<rqou> hmm, so the yosys plugin function is impossible to use on windows
<rqou> porting required
<rqou> yeah not going to do that right now
<lain> azonenberg: I had something similar with an old machine back in 2006, it turned out the gpu fan had died and turned into a heater
<lain> it baked a perfect image of the gpu heatsink into the adjacent nic
<azonenberg> lol
<azonenberg> well that was right around the time i got $DAYJOB
<azonenberg> i no longer own a functional personal laptop
<azonenberg> dont have a need, i'm basically only on the road for work
<azonenberg> and at home i have desktops
<rqou> but what about the new Macbook Pro(TM) :P
<rqou> how else do you test macOS?
<rqou> troll answer: ask rqou to test it for me :P
<azonenberg> Lol
<azonenberg> For $DAYJOB if i have to pentest anything on a mac, they'll issue me one - but that only happened once
<azonenberg> they know i am no expert on osx stuff so they'll have another guy do it
<rqou> xnu is really secure until you actually look at it :P
<azonenberg> for my own projects, i just dont officially support osx
<azonenberg> and if another member of the team wants to test and support on their own time (aka you)
<azonenberg> i wont stop them
<rqou> funny because gp4par actually builds just fine on osx
<rqou> with minor fixes
<azonenberg> I never said it didnt work
<azonenberg> I just said, i make no guarantees it will :)
<rqou> it even works on windows
<rqou> which i was quite amazed
<rqou> i guess portable code is portable?
<rqou> as in, talking to the devkit works too (aside from the bugs i filed)
<azonenberg> gp4prog works on windows?
<rqou> yeah
<azonenberg> Good to know
<rqou> or at least it blinks the led and detects the part
<azonenberg> And yeah, i try to write as much of my code as possible to be portable and not care about what hw/os it's running on
<azonenberg> yeah i saw that ticket
<azonenberg> havent had time to look at it yet
<azonenberg> Some projects, like Splash, use much more posix-isms
<rqou> is there just a delay that needs increasing or some other problem?
<azonenberg> splash wont be running on non-posix any time soon
<rqou> i haven't actually looked
<azonenberg> i havent either
<azonenberg> whitequark: want to look into that?
<azonenberg> i didnt write most of gp4prog
<whitequark> which part
<whitequark> 69?
<whitequark> oh
<azonenberg> i started the very basic skeleton, then whitequark picked it up from me and i made a few minor fixes since then
<whitequark> azonenberg: my board is in another country
<rqou> 68 is fun too
<whitequark> so thats troublesome
<azonenberg> but the vast majority of my contribution to the project has been in the PAR as well as the yosys cell library
<whitequark> I don't have an rpi2
<whitequark> I have an rpi3
<rqou> but 68 will be fun to try to debug :P
<whitequark> on rpi3 it works every time
<rqou> oh really?
<rqou> wtf
<rqou> using my binary?
<rqou> maybe it's a rpi2 kernel bug, but i don't care enough to look into it
<whitequark> I've built it myself
<whitequark> long ago
<rqou> natively or cross? i'm curious how long a native build takes
<whitequark> natively
<whitequark> uh half a hour or something?
<whitequark> rpi3 isnt shit anymore
<whitequark> its about on par with a mid-end smartphone
<rqou> half an hour including yosys?
<whitequark> yeah
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<whitequark> I think I installed abc from raspbian?
<rqou> damn
<rqou> ah ok
<rqou> yosys+abc takes about two and a half hours for qemu to build
<rqou> great, abc has mixed line endings
<lain> isn't there a git setting to normalize on checkout?
<rqou> i have no idea, and it doesn't matter because abc is in hg :P
<rqou> in general i wouldn't use such settings because i don't want my source control system magically changing my files
<rqou> heh this reminds me of a great environment that existed when I was at NI
<rqou> they used perforce for source control
<rqou> but they had two repos, not one
<rqou> the reason was because one was configured with unix semantics (case sensitive, LF) and one was configured with windows semantics (case insensitive, CRLF)
<rqou> i don't know why, but there seem to be various groups at $FANCY_SCHOOL that really like hg
<rqou> (everybody else seems to use git)
<lain> hg was git before git was git
<rqou> sure
<rqou> but hg's definitely losing the popularity contest right now
<rqou> i think my best hg story was the one class where the TAs really preferred hg
<rqou> but i was in a project group where everybody preferred git
<rqou> so we all ended up using git-to-hg bridges to interact with the TA's repo
<mtp> i don't hate perforce
<mtp> which is a shock to a lot of people
<nats`> hehe I pretty like it
<mtp> (i hate git, prefer fossil)
<nats`> and I fucking hate git and I prefere HG but I have to use git sadly
<rqou> wow lots of "hate git" in here
<whitequark> i like git
<whitequark> i find it very straightforward personally
<rqou> i dislike hg due to muscle memory not working
<rqou> "it's like git but everything is renamed" :P
<whitequark> other people has led me to believe my brain is warped because of that
<lain> git has too much magic... I like it more than any others, but I still feel there's far too many ways to do a given thing, and it's too easy to get yourself in a situation where you have to invoke magical incantations from the internet
<lain> like, for day to day stuff you rarely run into issues
<lain> but sometimes something goes wrong somehow, maybe a script derped up or who knows, and it rapidly throws you out into the wilderness :P
<whitequark> i once got screamed at for not hating git
<whitequark> to quote, "tolerance of git is an unethical act"
<mtp> whitequark, my problem with git is that you have to pickle yourself in the internals in order to use it effectively
<mtp> like, it's close to impossible to operate it well without understanding how it works
<nats`> an you can totally break a git repo from remote
<nats`> I don't like that
<lain> I once heard what I feel is a very accurate description of git: git is not a version control system, git is a build-your-own-VCS kit. it's got all the parts you need, they're just not setup for actual use yet ;)
<nats`> and yes too many magical option to know before using it
<whitequark> mtp: I think I agree with that
<whitequark> it's probably a consequence of how it was written
<rqou> whee, segfaulted collect2/mingw-w64
<rqou> oh, apparently due to wrongness i tried to link an elf into a PE
<rqou> yeah that doesn't work :P
<rqou> alright, all the tools are hacked up enough to have windows binaries output
<rqou> time to convert from "bash history" to something more manageable :P
<rqou> after this i'm going to probably want to start upstreaming build system fixes