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<rqou>
blargh, sleep cycle so f*cked
<pie_>
rqou, feel the bleh flow through you young padawan
<rqou>
alright, i think today i'm going to prune some ff tabs and then look at my vhdl parser again
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<rqou>
blargh i really need to write more comments
<rqou>
i am really bad at that
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<pie_>
when something is nontrivial leave just enough to understand next time
<rqou>
also sublime text's vhdl syntax highlighter is shit
<qu1j0t3>
and if in doubt write more rather than less.
* qu1j0t3
does a lot of maintenance work on inscrutable systems and comments are usually neglected
<lain>
and remember that what is trivial now isn't in a year, even if you're the one looking at it a year later :P
<qu1j0t3>
lain: Yeessssssss
<lain>
humans are, by default, pretty awful at judging how well they will understand something N time units in the future
<qu1j0t3>
lain: I write them as much for myself as the next person to pick up the code
<lain>
qu1j0t3: same
<rqou>
the last time i looked at this code was right before 33c3 and i already forgot a whole bunch of stuff
<lain>
when working on large systems there's another aspect as well... even if you're just summarizing some trivial code, that summary can be really handy because in a large system I often don't care to read the entire function, trivial as it may be, just to see what it does
<qu1j0t3>
yeah. memory fades so quickly. i have to baby myself through things every time. comments make that easier.
<lain>
I just want a quick comment saying what it is, what it does, what the side-effects are, etc.
<qu1j0t3>
lain: *nods vigorously*
<qu1j0t3>
lain: that's exactly what i am lacking in the thing i'm working on.
<rqou>
i should really fix "Error syntax error, unexpected $undefined on line 1"
<rqou>
this happens every time the lexer doesn't like your input :P
<qu1j0t3>
lain: also, the assumption that "somebody will document this before they hand it over... won't they?" is always wrong
<lain>
qu1j0t3: lool yes, so much yes.
<rqou>
the problem with "lexer doesn't like your input" is that it includes nonobvious issues like "a__b"
<qu1j0t3>
lain: in this case, i got a big marketing/ecommerce site dropped on me when an outsourcing relationship went sour, so there was zero, zilch, nothing. Just an out of date backup and a panicked client.
<rqou>
which is a lexing error afaik
<rqou>
according to the spec
<qu1j0t3>
(and the code was awful)
<lain>
qu1j0t3: wooo
<qu1j0t3>
so that was my New year! :)
* qu1j0t3
shuts off complain mode and goes to wash dishes
<lain>
hehe
<rqou>
question: how do i insert comments in something like this? "[A-Za-z\xC0-\xD6\xD8-\xF6\xF8-\xFF](_?[A-Za-z\xC0-\xD6\xD8-\xF6\xF8-\xFF0-9])*"
<qu1j0t3>
lain: Do you have a twitter? I follow a couple of people here, wouldn't mind following you. You can pm if you like
<lain>
I've been updating the hdl# codegen and my own vhdl codebase to 2008 and that sounded very familiar
<rqou>
wait
<rqou>
the vhdl spec explicitly allows for mojibake-inducing "features"
<rqou>
"NOTE 2—Comments may contain characters that, according to 15.2, are non-printing characters. Implementations may interpret the characters of a comment as members of ISO/IEC 8859-1:1998, or of any other character set; for example, an implementation may interpret multiple consecutive characters within a comment as single characters of a multi-byte character set."
<rqou>
best character encoding: latin1-utf8 hybrid, with utf8 only in comments
<rqou>
now your encode/decode logic needs a parser
<rqou>
:P
<cr1901_modern>
encode/decode logic?
<rqou>
the thing that python calls a "codec" that converts to/from bytes and the internal representation (usually codepoints)
<cr1901_modern>
Why would it need a parser for "utf only in comments"? I'm running at 10% capacity btw.
<rqou>
because the rest of vhdl is explicitly latin1
<rqou>
including for case folding
<cr1901_modern>
I don't see how that means your encoder/decoder needs a parser, but rather "your VHDL parser needs an encoder/decoder to swap between charsets on the fly"
<rqou>
sure, you can phrase it that way
<rqou>
except it's not just "your vhdl parser"
<qu1j0t3>
rqou: I note particularly his 'how brokenness becomes normalised' post
<rqou>
it also includes things like "your text editor"
<cr1901_modern>
Ahhh, I see now
<azonenberg>
rqou: one of many things i dislike about vhdl
<azonenberg>
:p
<azonenberg>
do you know what verilog does? i havent checked the LRM
<cr1901_modern>
I dislike vhdl b/c it's unfamiliar to me. And unfamiliar things are bad.
<rqou>
iirc it allows any unspecified 8-bit extension to ascii
<azonenberg>
I wrote a bit of vhdl a while ago
<azonenberg>
never liked it
<azonenberg>
went back to verilog :p
<rqou>
verilog is also case sensitive
<rqou>
so it doesn't need to do case folding
<cr1901_modern>
I prefer to read verilog rather than write it
<cr1901_modern>
and have something else generate it for me
<azonenberg>
lol
<cr1901_modern>
FSMs are a PITA in verilog. As is combinational always and forgetting to assign a default if no match
<azonenberg>
FSMs are quite easy, idk what you're talking about
<azonenberg>
re combinatorial always, that i agree could be handled better
<azonenberg>
easy solution is a lint rule that enforces a default
<azonenberg>
Once i write a linter :p
* cr1901_modern
doesn't know how to describe it, but FSMs are properly split into a combinational part that update a signal when a state transition is satisfied, which the sequential part then uses on the next clock to actually change state
<azonenberg>
You can do this in verilog
<azonenberg>
But i prefer to write it in one sequential block
<azonenberg>
its more concise and readable
<azonenberg>
The only time i use the 2-part form is when I need to use intermediate combinatorial values
<azonenberg>
a lot
<azonenberg>
which is rare
<cr1901_modern>
I don't actually know why the 2-part form is preferred in some contexts. Clifford suggested using it on a Stack Overflow answer (citation needed). Migen does it.
<azonenberg>
i think some old style guide :p
<cr1901_modern>
I learned to do it your way :P
<azonenberg>
Yeah i prefer it that way
<cr1901_modern>
But, the 2-part way is annoying, so I'
<cr1901_modern>
d rather some code generator do it for me :)
<azonenberg>
my solution: write them 1-part style and dont use 3rd party Ip :p
<cr1901_modern>
*what* third party IP ;)?
<cr1901_modern>
(that
<cr1901_modern>
's open source)
<azonenberg>
opensores? :p
<cr1901_modern>
*This FIFO is free software. It comes without warranty if it eats your dog*
<cr1901_modern>
fusesoc seems to be a nifty way to unite a bunch of FOSS IP, btw. It'd be a shame if it didn't work on non-free operating sys- oh wait
<azonenberg_work>
i wonder if this is in the fpga clock tree or something?
<lain>
well
<lain>
that looks like the scope itself :P
<azonenberg_work>
Yeah thats more likely
<azonenberg_work>
given that i am triggering on the clock
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<azonenberg_work>
and the clock cycle that initiates the trigger is shown jittery
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<azonenberg_work>
that shoul not be possible
<azonenberg_work>
Welp
<azonenberg_work>
Conclusion: Current IO stage performs well out to 100 Mbps
<azonenberg_work>
Data is inconclusive at higher rates
<azonenberg_work>
Sound about right?
<lain>
yep
<azonenberg_work>
So while i know my current stage is way too capacitive
<azonenberg_work>
I wont be able to see the difference with this scope anyway
<azonenberg_work>
I'll build it, then test it out to 100 Mbps just to make sure it isnt worse (as well as to test the protection still works)
<azonenberg_work>
but anything beyond there will have to be done with PRBSes blind just measuring BER on an FPGA etc
<azonenberg_work>
i need one more of those SMA-to-0.1" headers and i'll be able to actually do a full BERT loopback on the zybo
<azonenberg>
oh, and on top of all that i have done zero testing on the *output* side of it
<azonenberg>
All of this work so far has been input characterization
<azonenberg>
lain: So based on what you've seen so in this data
<azonenberg>
there's no obvious evidence of comparator jitter, right?
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<rqou>
hmm i found a typo in the vhdl spec
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<rqou>
wow wtf chipwhisperer shipping costs are ridiculous
<lain>
?
<rqou>
their store is showing $57 for shipping
<lain>
o_o
<rqou>
where the heck are they shipping from?
<azonenberg>
o_O
<rqou>
also $50 for a cable assortment wtf
<azonenberg>
canada
<lain>
america's hat.
<rqou>
oh wtf shipping is cheaper for the non-broken-apart board
<rqou>
it's so much cheaper to get that one and then get some sma connectors/cables from digikey
<rqou>
they still want $35 for shipping though
<rqou>
i hope this is at least "fast mode" shipping
<rqou>
i'm so used to "USPS first class package" shipping costs
<lain>
haha
<lain>
do they say what shipping method it is?
<rqou>
"Courier Flat Rate"
<lain>
huh.
<rqou>
woot i didn't get a cc decline :P
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<rqou>
all the CC security mechanisms that they keep inventing seem pretty useless because nobody figured out how to secure online transactions
<whitequark>
rqou: 3DSecure?
<rqou>
never heard of that
<rqou>
"Analysis of the protocol by academia has shown it to have many security issues that affect the consumer, including greater surface area for phishing and a shift of liability in the case of fraudulent payments.[3]"
<whitequark>
rqou: basically SMS 2FA for payments
<whitequark>
enabled by pretty much every bank in RU
<rqou>
i have never heard of this being implemented anywhere
<rqou>
maybe the US is just behind as usual
<whitequark>
yup
<lain>
mmm
<whitequark>
"a shift of liability" that's true
<whitequark>
but also chipped cards have the same issue
<lain>
yeah lol
<rqou>
heh, chipped cards had the liability shift happen how long ago?
<lain>
like when chip first hit the US and banks were denying fraud claims because "chip can't be hacked"
<lain>
they finally backed off when they realized how wrong they were
<lain>
by brute legal force :P
<rqou>
to be fair, most large brick and mortar retailers finally have chip readers now
<lain>
rqou: many are still disabled though
<lain>
because "It's confusing"
<lain>
I tried to use mine the other day at several major retailers
<lain>
and they all HAD the chip readers
<whitequark>
I can actually order a card with no chip still, I believe
<rqou>
most of the retailers i've seen around here have it enabled
<whitequark>
it's weird
<lain>
but the machine wouldn't read mine, and the cashiers all said "management won't turn those on because they slow down the line"
<rqou>
yeah idk why the heck they're so slow
<lain>
and I wanted to respond "then you can tell management where to shove it" and walk out without paying :P
<lain>
but you know, priorities.
<whitequark>
rqou: because of online verification
<lain>
yeah
<rqou>
my yubikey ssh auth isn't nearly as slow
<lain>
it's a round trip or two probably
<whitequark>
worse
<rqou>
ssh auth is probably several round trips too, why is it still so much faster?
<whitequark>
I've seen readers that actually establish a new ppp session every time
<whitequark>
fortunately those are dying out
<whitequark>
I think they actually repurposed the ones that were supposed to connect over GPRS, for mobile terminals
<azonenberg>
lol
<azonenberg>
one of my local stores has a reader so out of sync with the PoS
<lain>
ffs
<whitequark>
but... the mobile terminals we have *today* here are bloody fast
<azonenberg>
you insert the card
<azonenberg>
it says "approved"
<azonenberg>
after maybe 500 ms
<azonenberg>
then a second later "processing, do not remove card"
<lain>
hah
<whitequark>
I don't really know, I just assume it's the usual embedded device clusterfuck
<rqou>
so here is me doing ssh with a yubikey:
<rqou>
$ time ssh rqou@robertou.com "date"
<rqou>
Sun Feb 5 06:48:40 UTC 2017
<rqou>
real0m1.818s
<rqou>
user0m0.020s
<rqou>
sys0m0.004s
<rqou>
so <2s
<rqou>
why does my chip card take like 10+ seconds to authorize?
<whitequark>
rqou: does it establish a new ppp session?
<lain>
because people are stupid.
<rqou>
i have no idea
<azonenberg>
rqou: i dont see why they even have to do it online
<whitequark>
it usually prints something to that extent
<azonenberg>
terminal: random transaction ID provided by store system
<whitequark>
azonenberg: avoiding double-spend
<azonenberg>
card: signature(transaction ID, dollar amount)
<azonenberg>
done
<whitequark>
the card doesn't know its balance
<azonenberg>
it's a credit card
<whitequark>
uhm, no
<lain>
CCs have limits
<whitequark>
it's a plastic card
<azonenberg>
sure
<lain>
but also my debit has chip
<whitequark>
it could be bound to a debit or a credit account
<lain>
and a debit won't auth unless funds are available
<whitequark>
which determines how it works
<whitequark>
at least, in RU
<azonenberg>
Fine, but old style stripe readers did it online, no?
<lain>
well, actually I lied, I had a Chase debit once that would auth no matter what
<rqou>
in the US most debit cards can be charged via the credit networks
<lain>
that was fun, and by fun I mean awful.
<rqou>
i've been told that is uncommon elsewhere
<lain>
rqou: yes but many won't auth even via credit unless the funds are available
<lain>
afaik
<lain>
maybe that's just been the cards I've used though
<rqou>
yeah sure
<azonenberg>
you can still double-spend since transactions often take time to process
<azonenberg>
i've over-drawn debit cards before by accident
<rqou>
but apparently i've heard in other countries credit/debit cards are very distinct
<lain>
same
<rqou>
not processed via the same network
<lain>
rqou: ah ok, interesting
<rqou>
in general the us banking system is dreadful
<rqou>
a major brokerage firm here still has passwords that are a max of 8 characters and are case insensitive
<rqou>
amazingly they do have optional 2fa
<rqou>
using some kind of hardware token (symantec VIP?)
<rqou>
lain: "Your ODFI will set you up with a secure FTP server"
<rqou>
um...
<rqou>
that doesn't sound particularly well secured
<azonenberg>
My understanding is that the entire banking system is primarily secured by trust and an unwritten rule of governments to not mess with it
<rqou>
that's what i thought too
<azonenberg>
like, not siphoning money from one gov's treasury to another etc
<azonenberg>
by wire transfer etc
<rqou>
"It's important to note that ACH is not a real-time system. Rather, things are processed in batches at 6:30pm EST, 12:30am EST, and 3:00am EST. "
<azonenberg>
And this is why checks take forever to clear
<azonenberg>
And why when i pay my credit card off, the available balance on my card increments
<azonenberg>
then the balance drops
<azonenberg>
one happens earlier than the other, i forget the order
<azonenberg>
and then the money leaves my checking account
<azonenberg>
but for a day or so it looks like the money doubled
<lain>
rqou: iirc it's SFTP
<lain>
and I think it actually uses key auth? but I forget
<rqou>
it still feels very duct-taped together
<lain>
yeah totally
<rqou>
um... "An ACH file is nothing more than a file with multiple lines of ASCII text, each line 94 characters in length."
<lain>
yyyyep
<lain>
duct tape
<lain>
most of this originated in the mainframe days, and I'm sure nobody wants to propose a new system if there's a non-zero chance it would break :P
<rqou>
BTC? :P
<lain>
BTC is.. problematic :P
<whitequark>
lol btc
<rqou>
but think about how many russians/ukrainians learned about asic design because of it! :P
<lain>
maybe that was the plan all along
<lain>
personally my favorite conspiracy theory is that bitcoin was a very clever way to flood the market with relatively cheap hashing ASICs :P
<lain>
but that seems far-fetched
<rqou>
i thought those asics aren't very general purpose though?
<lain>
they aren't afaik
<lain>
but if you wanted to accelerate a specific hash in hardware
<lain>
just design a cryptocurrency around it and hope it takes off?
<lain>
:P
<lain>
sadly even the armies of asics some of the larger mining places have (had? is this still a thing?) wouldn't put a dent in anything real, I suspect
<rqou>
hmm so apparently ach can only move 10^8 dollars at once?
<rqou>
er, 10^9-1 actually
<rqou>
or, 10^9-0.01
<rqou>
math is hard :P
<lain>
haha
<lain>
my bank limits my ACH to $10k per transaction, that's all I know
<azonenberg>
My bank also limits online check uploads to 10K
<rqou>
that's because you're not @realDonaldTrump :P
<azonenberg>
I had a problem once when i closed an account at another bank and tried to move here
<lain>
I had to resort to wire transfers to pay for manufacturing at peak production
<azonenberg>
the check wouldn't clear
<lain>
also
<azonenberg>
i had to physically mail the check to the bank (they don't have any branches near me) to deposit it
<azonenberg>
o_O
<lain>
it's weird going from being totally broke to having to figure out how to move more money than you ever made previously in ONE TRANSACTION :P
<lain>
I was moving like >1 year salary in one go
<lain>
it was a brief but fascinating experience
<azonenberg>
Lol managing a business will do that to you
<lain>
yeah
<azonenberg>
i think 12K is the largest single transaction i've ever had to make
<rqou>
yeah, so far i have no experience with having the monies :P
<lain>
I think the largest I've made was close to $40k
<lain>
well, outgoing.
<lain>
if you count accepting the kickstarter money for my first product, that was $66k
<lain>
but that was handled by amazon
<lain>
also I learned the hard way: do not do a kickstarter at the end of the year
<lain>
don't.
<rqou>
why not?
<lain>
I mean, technically it's fine, but the paperwork is a bitch for taxes
<lain>
so in my case what happened was
<rqou>
ah
<lain>
I suddenly had $66k in income
<lain>
but that was technically product sales
<lain>
for a product that hadn't begun production yet
<azonenberg>
and you havent spent the money yet
<lain>
right
<azonenberg>
oh fun
<lain>
so I had huge income and no expenses
<azonenberg>
Then the next year huge expenses and no income?
<lain>
my tax lady figured it out though and made sure I didn't have to pay on it
<lain>
she spent like a week
<lain>
and found some obscure tax code
<azonenberg>
easy fix: form an LLC before your next kickstarter
<azonenberg>
funnel the money through that
<lain>
azonenberg: no
<lain>
I already did that
<lain>
that wasn't the issue
<azonenberg>
the money was in your name?
<rqou>
my parents still have their tax person do my taxes
<rqou>
allows better optimizations
<lain>
no the money was in the LLC
<rqou>
also, LLCs in CA cost $800/yr
<lain>
but it's a uh... jeez it's been a while
<rqou>
minimum (franchise tax)
<azonenberg>
i think cash vs accrual accounting is the difference here?
<lain>
it's filed as a disregarded entity
<lain>
well
<lain>
the issue is... she had to find the tax code that let her declare it as payment for goods, without having goods on hand
<lain>
which is a weird/obscure thing
<lain>
iirc
<lain>
because normally you have to like, sell people goods or services in exchange for the money and then you can claim the latter as expenses, but I didn't know what the expenses would be yet, etc
<lain>
I dunno
<lain>
it was a clusterfuck :P
<lain>
but also, it's important to know the different types of LLCs
<lain>
if you're a single person doing an LLC, you can /technically/ form a corporation, but that requires VERY SPECIFIC paperwork and recordkeeping
<lain>
you need to log everything
<lain>
if you have meetings (with yourself. yes really) you need to record the minutes for those meetings
<lain>
(yes, really)
<lain>
you need articles of incorporation or whatever
<lain>
which have to be filed
<azonenberg>
Yeah i know i've been through some of that
<azonenberg>
as a 2-person partnership
<lain>
yeah
<lain>
it gets fucky with a single person lol
<azonenberg>
Not doing it again
<lain>
OR you can be lazy
<lain>
and file as a disregarded entity
<lain>
meaning the money technically all goes through you, since you're the only one
<lain>
but you accept it on behalf of the LLC
<lain>
but there's some risk
<azonenberg>
ah
<azonenberg>
I'm done with corporations and startups
<azonenberg>
i'm a lab rat
<lain>
iirc if you file as disregarded entity you still get most of the protections, but it can get weird if you don't adequately separate the funds
<lain>
ideally you want to keep separate personal and business accounts and pay yourself a salary
<lain>
if you don't do that, you need to be able to account for every single transaction
<lain>
in order to benefit from LLC protections
<lain>
otherwise they can say you mingled personal and business funds and just appropriate it all
<lain>
e.g. if you got sued and lost
<lain>
business is hard
<lain>
I'd rather just dick around in a lab, but I hate working for other people so here I am
<lain>
:P
<lain>
but eh, I have a tax lady, she takes care of the confusing tax stuff for what I consider not nearly enough payment :P
<lain>
both parents are self-employed, and dad is a banker, so I've got most of the consulting covered lol
<rqou>
i should work on convincing one of my high school friends who studied accounting to do my taxes :P
<lain>
haha
<rqou>
also, my mom is also an accountant, so there's that :P
<lain>
honestly I don't even know how to decipher my taxes at this point
<lain>
I'd be screwed if I didn't have an accountant
<lain>
she has saved me SO much money
<lain>
thousands lol
<rqou>
wow "dot" is really slow
<lain>
there's so much weird crap, like I bought a laptop for work purposes, but a laptop lasts some amount of time and depreciates over that time and stuff, but you can't write it all off at once
<whitequark>
rqou: which output
<lain>
you have to write off bits of it over several years based on various depreciation things or something
<nats`>
ok need to send stuff to icestudio creator because I'm puzzled
<nats`>
side question is there any timing constraints in yosys tool suite ?
<whitequark>
not really
<nats`>
oO
<nats`>
so it's just placing stuff around without any timing analysis ?
<whitequark>
no
<whitequark>
it tries to get the critical path shorter
<whitequark>
but it doesn't have *constraints* per se, it just gives you its best attempt
<nats`>
but it doesn't even take the clock speed input
<whitequark>
indeed
<nats`>
oO
<nats`>
maybe that's why my design doesn't run on it
<whitequark>
like I said, it just tries to make the slowest part of the design as fast as possible
<whitequark>
then you can figure out how fast is that with icetime
<nats`>
but that has no sense
<nats`>
the hold time is as important as setup time
<nats`>
you can make things fucking fast if you don't respect hold time
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<nats`>
so I have to install an external yosys and try to synthesis my design with it
<nats`>
because icestudio doesn't help much
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<whitequark>
nats`: I think it assumes setup==hold?
<cr1901_modern>
How does it know the critical path without doing a timing analysis? Guess?
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<qu1j0t3>
was someone in here asking about analog computers recently?
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<azonenberg>
nats`: I do "shorten the longest path" placement in gp4par with no knowledge of actual frequencies right now
<azonenberg>
there is an open ticket for timing-driven placement
<nats`>
azonenberg so basically a design could be simply in timing error
<nats`>
because the module I made for icestudio doesn't work but this code is ok in simulation and on spartan/zynq/artix
<nats`>
a tiny led crontoller
<rqou>
azonenberg: recommended vendor for bnc/sma/etc cables?
<azonenberg>
rqou: i've been using crystek microwave hand-formable cables from digikey
<rqou>
DC-12GHz? nice
<azonenberg>
They're not cheap, i recall $10ish per cable, but they get the job done
<azonenberg>
I've also been using a few things from Zebax
<rqou>
and for crappy ones?
<rqou>
e.g. dc-2ghz or so?
<azonenberg>
in particular, 0.1" headers to SMA
<azonenberg>
Those are rated to 2 GHz but the big limit there is the 0.1" header
<azonenberg>
But i needed to get a PRBS out of a Pmod for testing b/c i didnt have any fpga boards w/ SMAs :p
<azonenberg>
I have some SMA to BNC adapters but forget who made them
<azonenberg>
my inline terminators came from amazon i think, dont recall vendor
<rqou>
i'm thinking i need a pile of crappy sma cables up to 3ghz or so
<azonenberg>
my attenuator is crystek as well
<azonenberg>
I bought good stuff because i didnt want to worry about it being a source of measurement error, plus i might be using it at higher speeds in the future
<azonenberg>
i dont want to try to remember what's what
<rqou>
for the chipwhisperer i just ordered and for the minivna that i got a while ago and never set up :P
<rqou>
these all cap out at around 3ghz
<azonenberg>
did the chip whisperer not have cables included? mine did
<azonenberg>
but i also got a starter kit w/ target board etc
<rqou>
the one that has cables included ends up costing like $100 more