apeiros changed the topic of #ruby-lang to: Ruby 2.0.0-p247: http://ruby-lang.org (Ruby 1.9.3-p448) || Paste >3 lines of text on http://gist.github.com
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<zenspider> argh. Is there a faster way to just get the count of files in a directory tree? I don't need paths / names / etc so using find | wc -l seems more expensive than necessary
<zzak_> zenspider:
<zzak_> ping
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<zenspider> zzak_: what's up?
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<zenspider> I'm so bored. entertain me. or something.
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<zzak_> zenspider: i look up to you as a maintainer of oss projects, what do you think of this and how i handled it? https://t.co/EGI6lugvEU
<zenspider> I'm pegging the shit out of my laptop... sec
<zzak_> np
<zenspider> I think you handled that very professionally. thank you.
<zenspider> iirc, amatsuda is a very shy dev who doesn't speak much english at all. I'm not sure he'd have much to contribute comment-wise
<zzak_> zenspider: woot, thanks. yeah i saved the complaining for twitter since noone, including you, follows me
<zenspider> I could be misremembering who that is tho
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<zzak_> his english is very good, but is just busy with other things
<zzak_> i can see shy
<zenspider> ok. I might be crossing wires. the picture isn't the best
<zzak_> he has probably gotten better since you talked with him
<zzak_> he gave his rubykaigi talk in english this year
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<zenspider> maybe you can review the PR and put your stamp of approval on it? that might help it get merged quicker
<zzak_> it needs a rebase, 2 year old patch.. :(
<zzak_> im mostly combing for major issues, so we can get a release since its been a while and people have been asking
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<zzak_> amatsuda gave me commit while i was in japan last month, so im helping the other maintainers when i have time
<zenspider> nice
<zenspider> why not merge if you have commit?
<zenspider> (assuming you approve)
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<zzak_> its a new feature and the patch isnt clean
<zzak_> it wont merge clean anyways
<zenspider> looks clean on github? am I missing something?
<zzak_> its a small patch, i could probably merge it
<zzak_> but i'd like yuki's opinion first, since he has been maintainer longer than me
<zzak_> theres probably a reason he didnt merge it either
<zenspider> at this point, motion seems more important than consensus... it's software, problems can always be fixed later
<zenspider> get it patched up and healthy and it'll make it easier on the other maintainers
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<zzak_> yuki is a kaminari pro, i am just an amateur
<zzak_> but good advice, i went through and closed around 10-15 tickets this afternoon doing just that
<zenspider> they wouldn't have given you commit bit if they didn't respect your contributions
<zenspider> and yuki is hella busy too
<zzak_> for sure
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<zenspider> man... I need to be able to distribute this across umpteen machines... and then I need umpteen machines
<zzak_> you need drb
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<zenspider> I don't think that'd help the way I'm currently doing things
<zenspider> and it is a LOT of string / file schlepping... doing that and adding drb serialization on top ... I'd guess that'd suck
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<zzak_> how are you distributing now?
<zenspider> I'm not. just running on my laptop
<zenspider> now x3 because I need to test 1.8, 1.9, and 2.0 separately
<zenspider> because I hate myself
<zzak_> :(
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<zenspider> I'm in the r's! woot
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<zenspider> ok. I give up
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<zenspider> too. warm.
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<arooni-mobile> is there a security hazard to running this ruby version: "ruby 1.8.7 (2011-02-18 patchlevel 334)"
<arooni-mobile> besides it being old
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<arooni-mobile> where should i go to read about bundler; looks like it's 404'ing http://gembundler.com/
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<erikh> zenspider: heh, wife cooked hamburgers tonight; nearly lost it when I realized that's why I was sweating so hard
<erikh> (needless to say, it was hot, I was already grumpy and yeah)
<erikh> feel horrible now
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<rickhull> is it a bad idea to rewrite my .gemspec using a Rake task? what's a good pattern for that?
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<rickhull> i'm also thinking about rake tasks for things i would otherwise to with `gem`
<rickhull> s/to with/do with/
<rickhull> e.g. rake build # updates the gemspec with today's date; calls `gem build`
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<rickhull> does going with something like http://rake.rubyforge.org/classes/Rake/GemPackageTask.html imply not using a physical .gemspec file?
<rickhull> i like the idea of persisting e.g. the version number inside the .gemspec in version control
<rickhull> s/version control/revision control/
<rickhull> and having rake tasks update the file as appropriate
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<rickhull> hm, just use hoe(™) ?
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<rickhull> hm, hoe seems a bit confusing for an existing project that already builds using `gem`
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<rickhull> can I keep my existing README.md in that format? do i need a README.txt in hoe's format?
<rickhull> what happens with my existing .gemspec?
<rickhull> it's hard to tell what's going to happen when I run `rake release`
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<rickhull> plugins for gemcutter, rubyforge, but not rubygems.org?
<rickhull> do i need this .autotest file thing
<drbrain> rickhull: you need to tell hoe you want to have the README in a different format, like this: https://github.com/rdoc/rdoc/blob/master/Rakefile#L45
<drbrain> rickhull: rubygems pushing is built-in, not a plugin
<drbrain> rickhull: if you have the graph gem, `graph rake` will create a png of the rake task dependencies
<rickhull> thanks!
<drbrain> or you can use rake -P and follow it yourself
<rickhull> might have some more qs
<drbrain> you don't need .autotest if you don't use autotest
<rickhull> i removed it from the default .hoetemplate
<drbrain> you can customize the project template if you like to use your defaults
<drbrain> yeah
<rickhull> can i leverage developer("Rick Hull", "rick@email.com") in other erb stuff?
<drbrain> for generation? no
<drbrain> at least, not that I know of
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<rickhull> ** README.md is missing or in the wrong format for auto-intuiting.
<rickhull> run `sow blah` and look at its text files
<rickhull> that's my issue with the formatting
<drbrain> you need to use some of the hoe formatting for URLs
<drbrain> you should have the same list of URLs at the top
<rickhull> drbrain: btw, my first ever gem / real github project: https://github.com/rickhull/bateman
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<rickhull> all i really want is dates and automatic versioning in my .gemspec
<rickhull> and then stick the .gem in pkg/
<rickhull> i started with rolling my own rake stuff
<rickhull> then that got hairy so now looking at hoe
<drbrain> yeah
<rickhull> but some of my opinions aren't meshing well with hoe's
<rickhull> so...
<rickhull> i decided a few years ago that markdown (or something very similar) is the ONE TRUE WAY for text files
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<drbrain> I think you just need to have the URLs and the Description block
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<rickhull> maybe i keep my README.md
<rickhull> and add a README.hoe
<rickhull> with appropriate Spec#readme_file
<rickhull> then i'm ALL WET
<rickhull> not DRY ;)
<erikh> hoe's never had a .hoe extension for anything
<rickhull> i just mean, to keep hoe happy
<erikh> .rdoc
<rickhull> could be .txt w/e
<erikh> or .txt. you may be right
<erikh> rickhull: you see my message about the 4th?
<rickhull> yeah, i'm tentative
<erikh> yeah, it's gonna be quiet, just saying.. wouldn't blame you if you found something better to do
<rickhull> sounds good, but my roommate may be back by then. if he is, we may stay in the city
<erikh> and because BART I can't really head up there easily
<drbrain> I know there's a hoe project with a README.md
<drbrain> I just don't remember what it is
<rickhull> it's not a huge deal, i can adjust if need be
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<rickhull> man, i visited a friend in Pacifica yesterday
<rickhull> he was going to come into the city but then was like, wait, Pride
<erikh> haha yep
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<rickhull> so plans changed, I take BART to Colma, he picks me up
<rickhull> google maps said it was like 10 min bike ride, 20 minute train ride
<erikh> hahahhahahah
<rickhull> except the nearest BART station is Ground Zero for Pride
<rickhull> as i found out
<erikh> you should see caltrain during a giants game
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<rickhull> took me 15 minutes of wading through the flesh to get to the BART entrance
<rickhull> which was like 99.9% people exiting BART for Pride
<rickhull> and me, wee salmon, swimming upstream
<erikh> oh, you went against the flow
<erikh> nice move
<rickhull> big time
<rickhull> thank god i took the longboard and not the bike
<erikh> yeah, 6pm on the bart to * is kind of a mess
<erikh> MUNI's trains are even worse
<erikh> boss this week with the strike just said "Everybody WFH"
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<rickhull> drbrain: http://i.imgur.com/gRKuNRv.png release_to_gemcutter ?
<drbrain> gemcutter is the old name for rubygems.org
<rickhull> oh ok
<rickhull> so just `rake gem` to build the .gem?
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<drbrain> rake package
<rickhull> that does gem build and sticks it in pkg/ for me?
<drbrain> at least, I always hook the package task
<drbrain> both do
<drbrain> ↑ is for rdoc
<drbrain> I guess I need to clean up the tags plugin's tasks somehow
<rickhull> glad to help :P
<drbrain> I'm using rdoc-tags (a plugin) and hoe-travis (another plugin) in rdoc
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<rickhull> is it weird that hoe defines a rake task with unmet dependencies?
<rickhull> `rake audit` wants to `zentest`
<drbrain> sounds odd, I don't think I've ever run `rake audit`
<rickhull> i have no doubt that hoe is the bee's knees for appropriate values of development environment
<rickhull> but there's a lot here, concept-wise, that doesn't apply
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<rickhull> i.e. it's a little too purpose-built for my tastes
<rickhull> c'est la vie. still evaluating :)
<erikh> different tools for different tools
<erikh> :P
<rickhull> yeah, is it more hairy to roll my own .gemspec rewrites?
<rickhull> or pull in a lot of seattlerb "baggage" (for lack of a better term)
<Tobarja> what's On/Off Topic here vs #ruby?
<rickhull> if it's related to ruby programming, you get a pretty wide berth
<erikh> #ruby is off-topic
<erikh> rickhull: these days I like 'bundle genm'
<erikh> 'bundle gem' too
<erikh> hoe's nice, but not quite what I want.
<Tobarja> erikh: as in first rule of fight club, or #ruby is the off channel?
<erikh> eh
<erikh> this is a silly place
<rickhull> mostly drama-free
<erikh> Tobarja: don't sweat it and ask
<rickhull> #ruby vs #ruby-lang is drama
<rickhull> stick with programming questions
<rickhull> and bay area / seattle trivialities
<erikh> a lot less rails people in here from what i'm told
<erikh> vs. #ruby
<erikh> so, a lot of times you'll get sent to #ror
<rickhull> RAWR
<Tobarja> erikh: no burning question, just getting bearings
<erikh> ok, well, I wouldn't sweat it too hard
<erikh> lurk, it's mostly high signal
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<whitequark> erikh: rickhull: there's also 'ore'
<whitequark> which is similarly simple to `bundle gem', but doesn't imply a bundler dependency and is more configurable
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<erikh> lurrrrve the bundler
<rickhull> i dunno, doesn't bundler break shabangs?
<rickhull> #! bundler exec ruby ?
<whitequark> rickhull: what?
<rickhull> once you start using bundler, things seem to only work right if you use `bundle exec ruby`
<whitequark> gem install rubygems-bundler
<erikh> oh god not that thing
<whitequark> it's awesome
<rickhull> HEHE
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<rickhull> bundler as a concept just really muddies the waters for me
<erikh> oh
<rickhull> i'll plead to ignorance all day
<erikh> you see my bloggy mcblogs?
<rickhull> not recently
<erikh> hold on
<erikh> I have rubygems things you should read
<drbrain> oh?
<drbrain> yes ↑
<erikh> drbrain: you've seen these
<rickhull> yeah i read that one :)
<rickhull> you wrote that for me :)
<rickhull> prompted by me anway
<rickhull> where's my check?
<erikh> understanding the role bundler plays is really important
<erikh> rickhull: you'd owe me money if I sent you one
<rickhull> fair enough
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<rickhull> i owe you one for that post as it stands
<erikh> anyhow, the second goes into bundler, and what it's good for and why you should use it for things and junk and stuff.
<rickhull> here is the burning question:
<erikh> bundler's not an inherently bad tool.
<rickhull> to what extent is bundler required for modern gem development?
<drbrain> I don't use it
<rickhull> how far can you go without it, and how painfully?
<erikh> drbrain would be better equipped to answer that than I
<rickhull> it's such an environment munger, magical, that i don't trust it until i totally understand it
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<erikh> that's fair
<rickhull> and i'm far from understanding it
<erikh> I just, well, I'm ok with it these days
<erikh> it solves problems I Have.
<rickhull> i don't disagree at all
<drbrain> RubyGems 2.1 will use a bundler-like resolver for installing gems
<erikh> drbrain: I'm really looking forward to that
<erikh> I will admit bundler is a hack.
<drbrain> it's already used for activation in RubyGems 2
<erikh> and would like rubygems to solve this problem instead
<erikh> but I am of finite resource as are you, so, uh, don't take that the wrong way
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<erikh> I still have to finish parallel downloads. too much shit going on atm
<erikh> I should just put in an issue and hope someone else has the time to tackle it.
<rickhull> i like the guarantees that bundler provides, and the relatively simple user-level mechanisms to provide them. but it really does seem to pull the rug out from everything you learned about ruby development
<erikh> no, rubygems doing it is the right solution(tm)
<rickhull> well, not everything. but important bases and filesystem mappings
<erikh> looking forward to 2.1.
<drbrain> when you get to rails app levels of dependencies, released versions of rubygems can't manage things properly
<erikh> bundler has to do some gymnastics to work with rubygems
<rickhull> yeah, bundler is oriented towards "app development"
<erikh> so fuller integration is very good.
<rickhull> whereas most of the stuff i'm interested in is library development
<rickhull> and i actively avoid nasty dependencies, mostly successfully (fortunately)
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<ryanf> drbrain: are you aiming to fully replace bundler, or just reduce the number of use cases where it's necessary?
<drbrain> ryanf: we don't aim to have gems built and installed from git built-in to rubygems
<drbrain> we can make it a plugin, though
<ryanf> that is actually one of the things I had in mind when I asked :)
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<ryanf> I remember you and/or zenspider saying that was stupid
<ryanf> I guess what I'm actually saying is, it sometimes seems like you guys are slightly out of sync with the general ruby-using public w/r/t what features are useful vs stupid
<ryanf> but I guess if plugins can address those discrepencies then it's cool
<ryanf> theoretically
<drbrain> it seems rather perilous
<rickhull> i think bundler is oriented towards app devs, more to the front end. possibly more to "the ruby community"
<rickhull> and the scope of bundler and rubygems overlap
<rickhull> it's not clear where one takes over
<rickhull> and i think historically bundler compensated for missing rubygems features
<ryanf> drbrain: it really isn't in practice, but that's neither here nor there I guess
<rickhull> but it's delicate when someone's baby gets the axe, in terms of who owns what functionality
<ryanf> if you're confident that you can support that kind of thing as a plugin, your personal opinion of it isn't that relevant, which is ideal
<ryanf> so that's cool to hear
<drbrain> evan wrote the rubygems resolver such that it easy to plug in new sources
<erikh> just, uh, maintenance burden is an issue
<erikh> drbrain: did the index format change too?
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<drbrain> not for 2.1
<erikh> ah ok
<drbrain> André (indirect) is working on that
<erikh> is that going into 3 or before then?
<erikh> right, I remember you mentioning it
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<drbrain> it'll come in a 2.x, we won't be removing the third(?) generation index
<drbrain> I'm unsure how to count the generations
<erikh> heh, use gem requirements
<rickhull> bundler reminds me of rails and rvm. a nice user-level interface and simple docs. but when things go wrong, it's a nightmare to try to understand exactly what's going on
<rickhull> s/wrong/unexpected/
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<erikh> '<= 2.1', '>= 1.8'
<rickhull> to me, rbenv ate rvm's lunch, and rightly so
<rickhull> and maybe chruby eats rbenv
<erikh> it's 100 LoC
<erikh> yes.
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<erikh> it's hard to argue with elegance-wise.
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<erikh> that and I wrote something similar a few years ago and am partial to such simplicity
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<erikh> anyhow, time to make puppet things go
<erikh> bbl
<drbrain> I guess the versions are: original YAML index (1), partial update YAML index (1.1), YAML-style Marshal index (2), the current index (3)
<rickhull> so my take is: to the extent rubygems can't do what people want it to, use a layer above rubygems like hoe or bundler
<rickhull> but i'd prefer to adopt things i understand, the less the better
<rickhull> a minimalist if you will
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<drbrain> hoe is a bunch of rake tasks atop Gem::PackageTask
<postmodern> hoe is also a project generator
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<rickhull> s/is/provides/
<postmodern> and reads some of the project metadata from the README
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<postmodern> there's actually a lot of projects that only build gems
<postmodern> mg, gem-release, etc
<rickhull> postmodern: how do you manage your .gemspec files? dates and versions?
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<rickhull> also, do you have chruby batphone?
<rickhull> er, batsignal
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<postmodern> rickhull, gemspec.date defaults to Date.today for a while now
<postmodern> rickhull, also most people just load the version.rb file
<rickhull> aha! rubygems.org might use an update
<rickhull> guides.rubygems.org
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<postmodern> rickhull, i wrote a configurable project generator that does all of that
<postmodern> rickhull, and i prefer to call it chruby spiddy sense
<rickhull> :P
<rickhull> here is what i have in mind
<rickhull> 1. edit lib/file
<rickhull> 2. run tests
<rickhull> 3. run build task, specify patch/minor/major increment
<rickhull> 4. publish
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<postmodern> might want to look at mg, rubygems-tasks, gem-release
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<postmodern> also bundlers gem tasks also provides most of that
<postmodern> i think gem-release supports version bumping, but i don't trust anything that auto-bumps
<havenn_> auto-tagging too
<rickhull> my idea was gem push_patch
<rickhull> er, rake push_patch
<rickhull> autoincrements the patchnum
<postmodern> could easily add that as a custom rake task
<drbrain> hoe-git creates tags for git
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<rickhull> also build_patch, publish_patch
<rickhull> likewise for minor, major
<postmodern> rickhull, read the readme's of hoe, bundler, mg, rubygems-tasks, gem-release
<rickhull> i'm up to my eyeballs in hoe and bundler
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<rickhull> hoe's documentation i find somewhat lacking
<postmodern> rickhull, specifically https://github.com/svenfuchs/gem-release
<postmodern> rickhull, gem bump --version patch
<rickhull> bundler too, though for different reasons
<rickhull> postmodern: cool
<rickhull> so, do i roll my own .gemspec code for assigning version from lib/version.rb?
<rickhull> i like the idea of a concrete .gemspec for a given version
<postmodern> gem bootstrap
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<rickhull> cool, gem-release seems more aligned with my intuition (for better or worse ;)
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<rickhull> if i could suggest a feature for hoe: `sow .` # examines current project dir for compatible files and uses them where appropriate
<rickhull> e.g. creates a comprehensive Manifest.txt
<whitequark> hoe is really a "worksforme" project. "it works for me, if you don't like it, fuck off."
<whitequark> (unsurprisingly)
<rickhull> yeah, that's my feeling so far
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<rickhull> and i'm in the latter category for now
<whitequark> it's also really ancient, hence what appears as a blatant disregard for best practices
<whitequark> (which weren't there.)
<rickhull> that tension is always there. building what you need versus general purpose. i'll never slag on somebody for building what they need. that's how bateman started
<rickhull> shameless plug https://github.com/rickhull/bateman
<rickhull> so then it's like, ok, i should release this
<rickhull> then it's all oh noes i'm not Doing The Right Thing
<rickhull> i'm not anticipating every possible use case, the horrors!
<rickhull> X11's maxim is mechanism, not policy
<rickhull> rails' says we have an opinion, policy
<rickhull> they each make sense at different layers
<rickhull> the hard part (™) is deciding what makes sense for the layer you're stuck at
<whitequark> honestly I'm not sure if X11 makes sense
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<whitequark> if you are generic enough, you appeal for all use cases and suck on all of them
<rickhull> i think "mechanism, not policy" is absolutely the right design decision for certain layers
<whitequark> if you're not ("opinionated"), then you're good for some and bad for others
<rickhull> typically lower level
<rickhull> higher up the stack, you apply policy
<whitequark> rickhull: right, that's why we have about five mutually incompatible direct rendering mechanisms in X11
<whitequark> and, I think, three mutually incompatible font rendering ones
<rickhull> it's not a panacea
<whitequark> and that all ends in using X11 for sending bitmaps around
<whitequark> aka VNC.
<rickhull> luckily someone is always in the wings ready to eat your lunch
<rickhull> a feature, not a bug
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<whitequark> it's not a panacea: it's an antipattern
<rickhull> i think the design rubric changes depending on how high/low you are on the stack
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<rickhull> low level just provides mechanism, higher level provides policy
<rickhull> a tightening of the vocabulary to desired states / happy paths
<whitequark> this ends in: 1) overcomplicated low-level implementation, 90% of which no one actually uses 2) ineffective happy paths
<whitequark> and X11 perfectly demonstrates this
<whitequark> a poster child, if you'd like.
<rickhull> well i certainly agree you can choose a good design ethos and fail at implementation
<whitequark> show me an example when there's a good implementation
<rickhull> i think another antipattern is to apply policy to early, too low-level
<rickhull> i.e. leaky abstractions
<rickhull> in the case of bateman, i abstract away response codes and headers, for the convenience methods
* whitequark shrugs
<whitequark> literally all abstractions leak
<rickhull> yep
<rickhull> it comes down to tradeoffs
<rickhull> what's the right tradeoff for this layer
<whitequark> you can write a piece of JavaScript code which will be dependent on x86 cache behavior
<whitequark> yeah
<whitequark> the word "policy" implies something arbitrary
<rickhull> so bateman has a mixture of policy and mechanism, which is about right i think. it's middleware, in a sense
<rickhull> you can bypass policy by using the lower-level #resource
<rickhull> skip all the assumptions and handholding
<whitequark> if this is possible, then what you have built is not an abstraction
<whitequark> it's indirection
<rickhull> i'll cop to that
<rickhull> what's the distinction?
<rickhull> i would say: I provide an abstraction, but also a way to bypass it
<whitequark> but tl;dr would be:
<rickhull> does Zed incorporate my stance in his critique?
<whitequark> if you add an abstraction, you provide (and guarantee) some invariants
<rickhull> reading...
<rickhull> yeah, i do
<whitequark> if you allow to bypass your abstraction, you essentially allow the user to break these invariants
<rickhull> you can bypass the invariant door if you need to
<rickhull> yep
<whitequark> that's not how invariants work :)
<whitequark> meaning
<rickhull> the invariants describe a configuration of the world that may not correspond to reality
<whitequark> nothing can actually rely on these invariants, if bypassing them is a part of interface
<rickhull> sometimes reality breaks your invariants
<whitequark> then you have to give up on your abstraction completely.
<rickhull> not completely
<whitequark> you either provide an invariant or you don't.
<rickhull> that's a false dichotomy
<rickhull> i provide an invariant. it's up the user to apply it
<erikh> I like big butts and I cannot lie
<whitequark> aka: either your code works correctly or it doesn't.
<erikh> you other brothers can't deny
<rickhull> haha, my code works when reality matches the assumption
<rickhull> it blows up when it reality doesn't
<erikh> when a girl walks in with a itty bitty invariant and a round abstraction in your face
<erikh> you get ZED
<rickhull> if you don't want to handle the blowups and lack of data when it blows up, bypass the assumptions and code them yourself
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<erikh> wanna pull out the refactoring editor 'cause you know that butt is stuck
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<whitequark> rickhull: I'm not going to argue with you whether code which works correctly sometimes is "correct", because that's a waste of time
<whitequark> but I will still explain one last example
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<rickhull> it guarantees correctness
<rickhull> else it blows up
<erikh> man you guys are no fun
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<rickhull> if we agree that every abstraction is leaky
<rickhull> then we should also agree that a mechanism to bypass the abstraction is not Harmful (tm)
<whitequark> if, suppose, I build a library which imports the interface of your library
<whitequark> can it rely on invariants provided by it?
<whitequark> if it can't, then they are not invariants.
<rickhull> there are two interfaces provide by the lib
<rickhull> 1. convenience methods, invariants
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<rickhull> 2. bypass, pass go, collect $200
<whitequark> indirection, then.
<rickhull> works for me. is it a bad word?
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<whitequark> it provides different kind of value
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<rickhull> the best, imho. just like you can embed HTML in markdown
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<whitequark> excellent example
<rickhull> it naturally follows from the understanding that all abstractions are leaky
<whitequark> if I can't embed HTML in markdown, then it abstracts over whatever the rendering engine is
<rickhull> let's just push most of the functionality into the abstract
<whitequark> and I can render markdown to HTML, epub and pdf.
<rickhull> and settle with what we can't
<erikh> the abstract poetic
<erikh> I'm going to derail this conversation
<whitequark> and if I can, that's just indirection for HTML. it does not provide more expressive power than it
<erikh> it's only a matter of time
<rickhull> q-tip whatchu on the mic for?
<erikh> YES
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<rickhull> representin from queens?
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<whitequark> aka, shorter way to write tags.
<rickhull> bateman provides less expressive power
<whitequark> I'm not saying that a shorter way to write tags is not useful, or less useful
<whitequark> I'm saying it is a different kind of thing.
<rickhull> it depends on how you measure power i guess
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<rickhull> but it fundamentally constrains the process
<erikh> terseness can provide useful indirection
<rickhull> it blows up when you fall off the happy path
<erikh> but otherwise, I agree with zed.
<whitequark> erikh: I agree with you too
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<erikh> that said, all this hippie shit isn't computering
* rickhull still hasn't read the zed
<erikh> computering is about metal
<rickhull> mentarbation alert!
<erikh> yes
<rickhull> somebody call zenspider
<erikh> very much so
<whitequark> use nodejs
<erikh> heh
<whitequark> it is close to metal
<erikh> hahah yes
<erikh> thought leaders tried to kill the metal
<erikh> and the metal rose, and struck them down
<rickhull> whitequark: from zed: Indirection causes this complexity. # EJB example
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<rickhull> does zed's indirection critique apply to bateman? honest question
* rickhull adorns flameproof suit
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<whitequark> rickhull: the answer is sometimes; just like EJB sometimes works
<whitequark> a concrete example may be
<whitequark> if something built on top of bateman frequently needs to access the low-level context, then it may very well be better without bateman
<rickhull> forget that bateman is my new baby, born today. i think it's a useful case study in engineering design
<rickhull> for better or worse
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<rickhull> so yeah, they could be better off without it
<rickhull> just use RestClient::Resource
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<whitequark> for a moment, I'll remind you how the argument started: I disagreed with your usage of word "abstraction"
<whitequark> not your design or smth else
<rickhull> sure
<rickhull> i'm holding up bateman as Good Design (™) in terms of breaking the abstraction
<rickhull> whatever terminology we want to use
<rickhull> i'm happy to back away from that, even if it hurts
<whitequark> if you're breaking the abstraction, there's no abstraction anymore :) which is what we see
<rickhull> right. that's Good Design (tm)
<whitequark> that's subjective
<rickhull> for sure. i'm not clear on what the substantive criticism is
<rickhull> other than EJB blah blah
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<whitequark> I think zed says more or less the same what I do
<rickhull> it reads like a generalization from a shitty case study
<rickhull> but i ahven't read the whole thing :P
<rickhull> i remain curious which are the salient points of zed's critique that apply to bateman
<rue> The hell are you talking about?
<rickhull> and would love to have my mind blown
<rickhull> rue: the new hotness https://github.com/rickhull/bateman
<erikh> heh
<rickhull> so many shameless plugs :P
<rue> A designed program can’t in its entirety break abstraction
<rue> Because it /is/ the abstraction
<erikh> rue: mind blown
<erikh> also I hope you're doing well and LTNS and all that.
<rickhull> i'm just saying, i love abstractions and layered principles in design. each layer should have a distinct vocabulary and separation of concern
<rickhull> but sometimes the layer you imagined needs to be bypassed
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<rickhull> and there's nothing wrong with that
<erikh> ok
<erikh> I'm gonna be nice about this
<erikh> there's an old usenet post
<whitequark> ... filled with rage?
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<erikh> about junior programmer code, senior programmer code, and hacker code
<erikh> with code examples.
<erikh> let me see if I can find it
<whitequark> erikh: oh, I know what you're talking about
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<rickhull> tl;dr i win \o/
<erikh> hah
<erikh> no, it's just ... something I've noticed. people who get caught up in design .. "stuff" tend to write less eloquent code
<rickhull> and people who don't, stink
<erikh> then I stink pretty bad
<whitequark> erikh: I think the key part is "caught up"
<erikh> I think you both are right now, atm
<erikh> that's some real talk ahem
<erikh> you're both good programmers, so stop it
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<rickhull> only if i get 5 github stars
<erikh> haha
<rickhull> look, options are good and never hurt
<rickhull> you have the option to bypass and use the #raw_methods
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<rickhull> use them at your discretion / peril
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<rickhull> or use a different lib
<erikh> oh, I wasn't bitching about your code
<rickhull> no i know
<rickhull> i'm being mostly silly
<rickhull> but haha only serious
<erikh> stop being so defensive about it
<erikh> a) it's your first gem b) fuck the haters
<rickhull> tongue firmly in cheek
<erikh> dr. erikh has left the building
<rickhull> it was a terrible decision to use my first gem as a case study in software design
<rickhull> not the first, not the last
<rickhull> but i honestly don't care about the gem. i do care / have a point about the decisions that went into it
<rickhull> the upside is, i love to have my mind blown
<rickhull> it really is an open mind, at least i've convinced myself
<rickhull> i just put up a big front because i've convinced myself
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<rickhull> i hold few opinions firmly, and the ones I do are the result of great deliberation. Some people can't handle the cognitive dissonance of having their firmly held beliefs shattered. I like to think I encourage the practice
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<rickhull> so to knock heads like this is fun and eye-opening to me, not negative in any way :)
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<rickhull> anyway it's late:30, cheers yall
<erikh> later
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<rue> erikh: Hi there
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<Joni_79> howdy
<Joni_79> I'm gonna ask silly newbie questions again, prepare your selfs.. :p
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<Joni_79> Whats the meaning of :: in syntax? eg. AboutClasses::Dog7 (in one koans case). I'm not sure how to interpit "::". Any pointers or help? :)
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<drbrain> Joni_79: it's for namespacing
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<Joni_79> drbrain: so it's always used when describing namespaces? eg. ClassFoo::SubClassFoo::MethodFoo or something like that?
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<drbrain> yes
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<Joni_79> Ok. seems clear enough
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<yorickpeterse> morning
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<andrewvos> hello
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<mdedetrich> haro
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<injekt> hello
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<yorickpeterse> Does anybody know if it's possible to mount Sinatra apps inside another ones but using a namespace?
<yorickpeterse> So basically like map + run in raw Rack
<yorickpeterse> but inside a Sinatra::Base subclass
<injekt> I'm not sure you can ou the box
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<injekt> I usually end up subclasses sinatra base and mapping them separately
<yorickpeterse> hmpf
<yorickpeterse> I need for these sub apps to inherit the config of the base one
<injekt> there's probably a better way, maybe ask in a sinatra channel
<whitequark> yorickpeterse++
<whitequark> seen docs
<yorickpeterse> kekek, I have an evil idea
<yorickpeterse> configure is just a class method so I can call it from the outside.
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<yorickpeterse> In which 5 Unicorn workers are slower than 1 Thin process
<yorickpeterse> makes total sense
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<yorickpeterse> oh shit, I have an actual use-case for Rainbows! I think
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<dernise> Is there a libre license that doesn't allow commercial use of my project ?
<dernise> Well only me can sell it.
<yorickpeterse> or maybe Puma, hmmm
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<Olipro> dernise: CC BY-NC-SA 3.0?
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<darix> Olipro: not sure that is a good license for code
<darix> it is more targetted at pictures/music/video
<erikh> you want the indemnity clauses
<erikh> even if you require nothing more from the end-users
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<crankharder> erg, whats the syntax for overriding '<<' on something?
<Mon_Ouie> def <<(x)
<Mon_Ouie> They're all just regular methods
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<erikh> thing <operator> other can usually be translated to thing.operator(other)
<erikh> there are some exceptions though
<crankharder> er, right.. why's this giving me hell then?
<crankharder> def self.recipes <<(recipe)
<Mon_Ouie> Because you foo.recipes << bar calls foo.recipes and, on the result of that call, #<<
<Mon_Ouie> It's not a single method
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<Olipro> so what's the HTML templating flavour of the moment? HAML? Slim?
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<yorickpeterse> End verdict: Puma is pretty sweet usage wise
<erikh> I need to embed a monolith into it soon
<erikh> code looks pretty straightforward
<yorickpeterse> a what?
<erikh> a scheduler/reactor of sorts
<erikh> long story.
<yorickpeterse> ah
<erikh> I need the fact it can handle long-running connections and doesn't choke on threads.
<erikh> unlike... everything else
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<yorickpeterse> I like the attitude of puma (and other self-restarting servers): GEM NOT FOUND? RESTART!
<yorickpeterse> GEM NOT FOUND? RESTART AGAIN
<yorickpeterse> etc
<yorickpeterse> and of course it logs it so you'll quickly get a log bomb
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<andrewvos> Genius
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<andrewvos> >> thing = 1; thing++1; thing == 2
<eval-in> andrewvos => false (https://eval.in/36306)
<andrewvos> >> thing = 1; thing++; thing == 2
<eval-in> andrewvos => /tmp/execpad-7150e0311168/source-7150e0311168:2: syntax error, unexpected ';' ... (https://eval.in/36307)
<andrewvos> >> thing = 1; thing++ ; thing == 2
<eval-in> andrewvos => /tmp/execpad-55d4f74da08f/source-55d4f74da08f:2: syntax error, unexpected ';' ... (https://eval.in/36308)
<andrewvos> uhh
<andrewvos> >> thing = 1 ; thing++ ; thing == 2
<eval-in> andrewvos => /tmp/execpad-41c5f15bca6f/source-41c5f15bca6f:2: syntax error, unexpected ';' ... (https://eval.in/36309)
<andrewvos> The hell?
<andrewvos> >> thing = 1 ; thing+=1 ; thing == 2
<eval-in> andrewvos => true (https://eval.in/36310)
<yorickpeterse> ++ doesn't exist
<andrewvos> It does in irb and in pry
<andrewvos> Why?
<yorickpeterse> lrn2ruby
<yorickpeterse> and no, it doesn't
<andrewvos> 1.9.3
<andrewvos> yorickpeterse: You see?
<injekt> lol no
<injekt> that's because you do
<injekt> thing +
<injekt> thing
<injekt> which prints 2
<injekt> if you do 'thing' again it'll print 1
<injekt> >> 1++1
<eval-in> injekt => 2 (https://eval.in/36311)
<andrewvos> Right, I'm moving to Go
<andrewvos> Or maybe JavaScript
<andrewvos> I clearly cannot ruby
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<erikh> happy happy
<injekt> :D
<erikh> joy joy
<erikh> happy happy
<erikh> joy joy
<injekt> >> 1++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1
<eval-in> injekt => 2 (https://eval.in/36312)
<erikh> LOLOLOL
<andrewvos> hahaha I'm gonna push that to production
<andrewvos> 2+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1
<injekt> heh
<andrewvos> >> 2+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++1
<eval-in> andrewvos => 3 (https://eval.in/36313)
<erikh> >> 8===================='D'
<eval-in> erikh => /tmp/execpad-046a694c13bc/source-046a694c13bc:2: syntax error, unexpected === ... (https://eval.in/36314)
<erikh> fuuuuu
<injekt> +x returns x
<andrewvos> >> 3=========================()
<eval-in> andrewvos => /tmp/execpad-79fb90bb5910/source-79fb90bb5910:2: syntax error, unexpected === ... (https://eval.in/36315)
<erikh> >> 8====================='D'
<eval-in> erikh => /tmp/execpad-c788c66be3fa/source-c788c66be3fa:2: syntax error, unexpected === ... (https://eval.in/36316)
<erikh> damnit
<andrewvos> Nice try
<erikh> it was worth a shot
<injekt> (if @+ is implemented, that is)
<injekt> er +@
<erikh> I guess I could do it with plusses
<whitequark> andrewvos: gem install parser --pre; ruby-parse --explain -e "some code you have no idea about"
<erikh> but
<erikh> "well, you see, the dong starts at the 8, and then tries to repeatedly compare it's value to itself until it reaches the 'D'"
<erikh> "see, the 8, she wants the D"
* erikh will go hide now
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<andrewvos> whitequark: Thanks! "require': cannot load such file -- parser/compatibility/slop (LoadError)"
<matti> -> erikh is under the bed!
<matti> ;D
<andrewvos> That's mean matti. You know how he gets when you tell about his hiding spot
<matti> Oh sheesh.
<matti> I forgot.
<matti> ;<
<andrewvos> Now he's in tears
<matti> andrewvos: Quick, give him his teddybear.
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<whitequark> andrewvos: oh crap
<whitequark> I'm dumb.
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<whitequark> andrewvos: released beta10 with the fix
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<andrewvos> Not baddd
<andrewvos> I like
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<whitequark> andrewvos: huh
<andrewvos> whitequark: --explain is very cool
<whitequark> I'm glad
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<woolly> Hey guys
<woolly> I'm having trouble with Time.local interpreting BST, and am properly scratching my head
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<woolly> The output of: p Time.now.getlocal.zone, Time.local(2001, 1, 1, 1, 0, 0) is "BST" 2001-01-01 01:00:00 +0000 Surely this should be +0100 since the local time is BST, no?
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<Cremno> BST is your current time zone but local 2001-01-01 01:00:00 should have a different one. It doesn't make sense to have summer time in January.
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<drbrain> woolly: what is BST?
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<drbrain> time zone abbreviations overlap, I'm guessing British Summer Time
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<drbrain> woolly: … Cremno is correct, try: TZ='Europe/London' ruby -e 'p Time.local(2001, 7, 1, 1, 0, 0)'
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<yorickpeterse> what the shit
<yorickpeterse> I come back and this channel is full of eval-in ASCII dongs
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<yorickpeterse> seems I didn't really miss anything while juggling with Ruby app servers
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<andrewvos> That actually happened
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<yorickpeterse> looks legit
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<cout> it was obviously shopped
<cout> you can tell because of the sound effects
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<NemesisD> hi guys. in ruby 2 when i create a directory with an ampersand in it like FileUtils.mkdir("Axis & Allies"), then later get it back from Dir.glob, the apersand becomes "\\u0026", what's going on there?
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<drbrain> NemesisD: what does this say: ruby -e 'puts Encoding.find "filesystem"'
<drbrain> if "\\u0026" is from an inspect-string, that's an ampersand
<drbrain> I'm unsure why it would appear in escaped form, though
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<NemesisD> drbrain: says UTF-8, the issue is actually coming up in a spec, i'm asserting something I get back from the FS has that & and the spec is failing because it gets back that escape sequence instead
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<drbrain> I'm guessing you have an encoding mismatch somehow
<NemesisD> yeah i think so too :/
<NemesisD> i've just been bashing it indescriminiately with encoding methods to try to get it to be normal
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<dpatel> \join #mongoid
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<drbrain> dpatel: your / fell over
<dpatel> yup
<andrewvos> How embarrassing
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<drbrain> at least it didn't go missing entirely
<drbrain> that's what usually happens to me
<dpatel> lol, last time i used irc was a good while agao
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<RickHull1> postmodern: what were some of the gem helper projects you mentioned last night?
<RickHull1> gem-something?
<RickHull1> gem-release i think
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<RickHull1> is rubygems-test still useful? i notice the gemtesters.org site has lapsed
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<postmodern> RickHull1, mg, gem-release, rubygems-tasks off the top of my head
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