<DocScrutinizer05>
akonady, the greatest thing since black plague
<wpwrak>
hmm,. my desktop, command in order or frequency of use: Ctrl-Cursor, switch virtual screen. Left-click: a little menu comes up that lets me start xterm, plus a few other things i rarely use (i just start everything else from xterms). Right-click: like of active windows. that's it :) loneg live fvwm !
<DocScrutinizer05>
task manager doesn't show number of grouped windows anymore
<DocScrutinizer05>
desktop? never see that
<DocScrutinizer05>
all I'm using is the taskmanager bar at top of screen, and the menu and widgets in the errr plasma bar
<DocScrutinizer05>
all my windows are fullsize
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I rarely ever use multiple virtual screens
<DocScrutinizer05>
rather I switch between widows with alt-tab
<wpwrak>
all full-size ? you should use the ratpoison windoe manager then
<eintopf>
wpwrak: :O I use fvwm as well
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<wpwrak>
good choice ! :)
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<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I'm used to this kde environment, though it turns into a bitch more and more
<DocScrutinizer05>
sometime around end of KDE2 I almost worked mouseless - had kbd macros for really everything
<DocScrutinizer05>
with kde3 stuf got better and worse - with kde4 it turned into a mess
<zcrc>
use gnome-shell <3
<DocScrutinizer05>
and what really makes me want to go BERSERK are the regressions introduced because of ignorance and incompetence, often even intentionally
<DocScrutinizer05>
gnome however is so UGH, I tried it once when it came as default "alternative" to KDE, several years ago, and I don't like it - I even developed a hate for all tools starting with g*
<DocScrutinizer05>
gconf for example
<DocScrutinizer05>
gvfs
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, gstreamer is kinda nice
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm honestly surprised kdbus isn't named gbus
<zcrc>
my only problem with Gnome software is that it tends to be very buggy
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
that too
<DocScrutinizer05>
and despite the "KISS" approach it has, compared to KDE
<DocScrutinizer05>
my desktop is so heavily cistomized, you wouldn't be able to tell what it is, on first glance. And I'm having a several days of redoing customizations on every update. Last one been ~12h ago
<DocScrutinizer05>
.s/sistom/custom/
<DocScrutinizer05>
in gnome this would be weeks at least
<DocScrutinizer05>
if feasible at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
gnome seems the perfect desktop for the "install, don't touch, use 4 weeks, re-install" gang
<DocScrutinizer05>
while I'm perfectly happy with my desktop staying all the same for years or even decades
<DocScrutinizer05>
only minimal bugfixing and careful updates to augment a few useful functions
<DocScrutinizer05>
my decorations still look like win3.11 ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
*of course* "classic style" appstarter menu
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I don't care how it look. As long as it doesn't scare my autistic mind. I tell you it doesn't *feel* like windows
<DocScrutinizer05>
though.... Kontact PIM starts to feel more and more exactly as clumsy and unusable like outlook
<DocScrutinizer05>
just noticed the update broke the audio notifications on new mails
<DocScrutinizer05>
for checking a 4600 inported mails against spamassassin it too ~5min for SA and ~45min to move the mails around from one folder to the other - in *mysql* :-o GRRRRR
<DocScrutinizer05>
for a total of maybe 50 mails that actually got moved
<DocScrutinizer05>
all the time spamming me every 20s with "tehre are 3 new mails in folder 'openmoko-community'" and similar nonsense
<DocScrutinizer05>
while mySQL eate one of my 4 cores of this i5
<DocScrutinizer05>
ate*
<DocScrutinizer05>
dunno WTF this SQL devel did to poor mySQL, in Kontact/kmail
<DocScrutinizer05>
or rather, AKONADI-crap
<DocScrutinizer05>
a 8h ago I had to restart akonadi, since it constantly spammed my internet connection with IMAP chitchat to my OM mailserver, at a rate of 45kB/s
<DocScrutinizer05>
even while Kontact been completely stopped. This doesn't mean a thing to this akonadi abomination, it continues to fetch mail in background. W*T*F????
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's a negligible "audio muted" - of course making it *any* more obvious, e.g. by using *colors* (EEEEEK) like 'red' for the muted speaker symbol would probably kill the macintosh-loving designer idiot
<DocScrutinizer05>
I seem to recall that in KDE2|3 icons not only were more color-happy (thus giving more and better info in the same channel "bandwidth"), but it's also way simpler to select and even design your own icons everywhere
<DocScrutinizer05>
this "NO COLORS, we're modern!" mindset makes me angry
<DocScrutinizer05>
just like that "no holes in the case" idea in OM GTA03
<DocScrutinizer05>
perpetuated until today, and extended to the equally old "no hw buttons please"
<DocScrutinizer05>
wtf is wrong with a nice hw-trigger for camera?
<DocScrutinizer05>
what with a proper volume or - more generaly - PLUS / MINUS rocker
<wpwrak>
well, you can have capacitative. one nice benefit is that you can make the case pretty water-tight that way
<wpwrak>
especially if you don't have a lot of connectors. or can compartmentalize them.
<DocScrutinizer05>
HAHA, ok. All water-resistant phones I ever seen used hw-switches all over
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe that's related that water and capacitive detection doesn't go together well
<wpwrak>
(kde) i used konqueror for a very very long time. but eventually it just had too many problems rendering things. switched to chromium and like it. overall feeling is not too different and it's quite snappy.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not using crappy capacitive touchscreens, but I heard those iPhone and Samsung users swaer a lot when it starts raining a tiny bit
<wpwrak>
(cap+water) hmm, you have a point there ... let's say "water-surviving", not "under-water-usable" :)
<wpwrak>
*grin*
<DocScrutinizer05>
for receptacles even more important than a flap sealing the hole in case where the jack is behind, is using of properly sealed receptackles that don't open up an aperture to the rest of device interior
<DocScrutinizer05>
except for the tube of a vacuum cleaner I don't know of a single functional connection that needs an apperture to the inside of the device. Every receptacle can get built in a way so that the device as such is still "water tight"
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, right, Oven funnel
<DocScrutinizer05>
they even can built water-resistant speakers ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
build*
<wpwrak>
(funnel) yeah, a fan would need outside access ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
see JVC control-1G
<DocScrutinizer05>
(fan) depends. I can easily see a water-tight design, using heatpipe and only exposing the heatsink and the fan as such to any water outside the device
<wpwrak>
and yes, i'd also try to make a "connector compartment" with walls around that end on the pcb in something rubberish.
<DocScrutinizer05>
and, using a concept like your dish washer's pump, that fan doesn't even need any electricity in it
<wpwrak>
the fan itself would be very environmentally sensitive. perhaps more than anything else in the device.
<DocScrutinizer05>
how environmentally sensitive is a plastic propeller with a few neodyme magnets embedded into the plastic?
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually virutally every contemporary PC fan is built that way. The moving parts are ony plastic with embedded magnets. The elctronic oarts are solid state and could get separated from the fan blades by a watertight wall
<wpwrak>
given the type of device that would require a really tiny fan, i suspect very, no matter how you design it. of course, you could make it more or less fragile
<wpwrak>
and yet they die like flies ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's usually caused by the crappy bearings, or by idiots like me giving them a 6 bar blast form canned air
<DocScrutinizer05>
actually giving that critter a nice bath would help keep it alive, by removing all the dust and gue it collects
<wpwrak>
yeah, bearings are a big problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
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<wpwrak>
the bath may also remove whatever lubrication they use. not sure if it's always trivial to replace.
<wpwrak>
zcrc: hah, now we know your undercover identity :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's not. But obviously such bath isn't considered appropriate for standard fans, but for the water-tight type
<wpwrak>
ok :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
apropos: last laptop fan that crapped out and started screaming, I dremeled a apperture to the fanblade hub, not exactly on but close to the axis, and then flooded it with wd40. worked for another 2..3 years
<zcrc>
wpwrak: :)
<larsc>
zcrc: back to work!
<DocScrutinizer05>
duh, this DST kills me, already 18:30
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<DocScrutinizer05>
(hermetic receptacles) particularly 2.5mm 3.5mm 6.3mm and RCA jacks are often built like the case needs more ventilation holes
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: was disassembling the laptop too complex?
<DocScrutinizer05>
err yes, lenovo T500 is really a bitch to disassemble and clean
<DocScrutinizer05>
though the defect fan been in a Siemens Amilo
<DocScrutinizer05>
the T500 got a killed electronic by me overpacing the fan motor
<DocScrutinizer05>
I tried to block the fan blades by some wire or match or cantrecall, but fialed
<DocScrutinizer05>
failed*
<DocScrutinizer05>
fan->20000RPM, oevrvoltage killed the PWM regulator electronics
<whitequark>
ugh I hate this so much
<larsc>
the fan is always the first that dies on my thinkpads
<whitequark>
main ISP's billing is broken, so I'm left to use this crappy LTE
<whitequark>
not only SINR is constantly near 0 dB where I live, but also there is some weird path interference going on AND snow!!!
<whitequark>
why the fuck is there snow in April
<DocScrutinizer05>
because you live in a doomed country ;-P
<larsc>
technically it is only snow in March
<DocScrutinizer05>
while snow in April isn't exactly unheard
<larsc>
I remember at least one easter where it snowed
<DocScrutinizer05>
you could even say, April is proverbially notorious to have rain snow hail and summer sun, on one day
<DocScrutinizer05>
at least here in Germany
<DocScrutinizer05>
old children's rhyme
<whitequark>
that doesn't make me hate it less
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway, crapy LTE? I'd be lucky to have *any* LTE. Though UMTS with HSPA isn't that bad here. Faster than my DSL
<DocScrutinizer05>
use a proper yagi
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
or even helical
<whitequark>
well, anything <LTE works even worse at this point, in fact I don't usually even have 2G coverage in the middle of a room
<whitequark>
yagi... dongle doesn't have antenna slot
<DocScrutinizer05>
wtf? aren't you living in Moscow?
<whitequark>
I am
<whitequark>
there's a fucking cartel of three cellular operators which care about exactly 1 thing: filling their pockets
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<whitequark>
whoever came up with the spectrum licensing fees needs to be executed
<DocScrutinizer05>
a dongle? great! place it where your active dipole of your yagi sits, so it couples directly to that dipole
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<DocScrutinizer05>
you even could use a simple sat dish
<DocScrutinizer05>
800MHz is already short enough a wavelength, 1800..2100MHz definitely is
<DocScrutinizer05>
check out what the WLAN antenna freaks do, google words: "pringle antenna", "sat dish + WLAN"
<DocScrutinizer05>
plcing the dongle at focus of the dish, preferrably in a pringle tube, is as convenient and easy to build and cable up as it gets
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: >> That leaves a few others -- firefox os, ubuntu touch, Neo900 and so forth.<<
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<DocScrutinizer05>
freedeom has its price
<DocScrutinizer05>
_not: using a fsckng combo-SoC with integrated modem *is* way more expensive than a snapdragon crap where your frankenstein kernel needs to run based on a closed-source android RIL and modem shares RAM with linux and nothing protects you from modem taking over control over the whole system, possibly without you even noticing
<Web-aptosid876_>
I'd relly like to get a neo900. (would "solve" my NN noisey sound problem :) ). but it's finding the £££. :( my money for these things comes from a trust fund but a neo900 is 1year's of trustfund and I need that money for other gear arrrr. but i want a neo900 .....
<Web-aptosid876_>
I gess i need to get some one off jobs for the money :P
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, yeah. That hurts but we decided to build it _nevertheless_ even while we can't do anything about the pricetag
<whitequark>
trust fund?
<DocScrutinizer05>
350 preorders convinced us that it's feasible, I was pretty sceptical about it when we started that project
<Web-aptosid876_>
it's great that there pressing on despite the price tag. I'll was just writing my woes.
<Web-aptosid876_>
I'd love to put my self on a list of pepole whos order becomes active when X number of peole = low price
<Web-aptosid876_>
a bit like what rhombus-tech.net have for there preorder pages
<Web-aptosid876_>
this way I don't have to commit £100 and then not be able to pay the other £500 later. but you and other buyers see that X number will buy with X number of total buyers = lower price
<Web-aptosid876_>
for me I think when 1000 is reached it then becomes a bit easyir to afford but I still havn't worked out where my money is commming form
<Web-aptosid876_>
I get a few-serval hunder £ each year from <surname> family biz. (I'm 19 years old now)
<Web-aptosid876_>
thats what I mean by trustfund
<Web-aptosid876_>
money thats in a trust
<Web-aptosid876_>
So I'm very lucky.
<Web-aptosid876_>
so DocScrutinizer05 your involved in neo900? is there a list of buyers when price is <max>?
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I think I'm kind of "involved", yeah. We don't publish a list of buyers, we may not for privacy reasons
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<wpwrak>
Web-aptosid876_: he's main driving force behind Neo900, in more roles - technical as other - than i can imagine ;-)
<Web-aptosid876_>
I don't mean a list of who and who I mean a number
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<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, we will find a way to show the "stock exchange fluctuations" of pricetag once real ordering starts
<DocScrutinizer05>
but we need to take a high risk beforehand by guessing how naby devices we may sell, and sourcing the components for that amount we hope we can sell. Sourcing components may take 3..6months or not work at all, so we need to start with that *now*
<DocScrutinizer05>
so only the ones who did a "preorder" donation are warranted to get a device - when anybody gets any
<larsc>
and once you have found source for all components the ones you found first are already end of line ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
we might simply "run out of stock" pretty soon
<DocScrutinizer05>
larsc: those components I am talking about here are EOL since ~4 years
<Web-aptosid876_>
so when the price can be £400 then all the buyers who's price limit was set to £400 then automatically, there conditional order becomes a order. this way you see you have this $many possable orders
<DocScrutinizer05>
stuff like slider mechanism, display, digitizer, keymat
<Web-aptosid876_>
arr oh dear. there's pressure for me to put one in
<DocScrutinizer05>
camera module, antennae
<DocScrutinizer05>
domesheet
<DocScrutinizer05>
main flex cable
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically it's still a "get a N900 and swap the mainboard" thing, not a production of a new shiny (more or less) device
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: but you'll do that too, now that you have full control, right ?
<wpwrak>
well, s/'ll/ plan to/ of course, it's a new can of worms, with new things that could go wrong
<Web-aptosid876_>
full control?
<DocScrutinizer05>
and since that's not nightmare-ish enough yet, to make it worse we don't know yet how many donors hope for a complete device and how many would be content with a mainboard to swap on their own N900. And the tax office and GDC's tax advisors don't find a way to transfer the donations to the Neo900 UG, and I'm probably not able to order *anything* any time soon
<Web-aptosid876_>
so later this year or next year I guess realistically?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, I hope so
<Web-aptosid876_>
I can tell you that I'll need a completely device
<DocScrutinizer05>
right now Neo900 development in Munich is pretty slow due to a colliding concurrent job that for unclear reasons got priority: Pyra
<wpwrak>
"Pyra: Ang Babaeng Apoy is a Filipino drama of GMA Network." must be that one :)
<Web-aptosid876_>
hmm. mind if I dare ask for suggestions for a small device with good sound output, usb host?, and maybe free-wifi? bouns: good audio line-in
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<whitequark>
any smartphone really
<larsc>
sounds to me as if dr. nik is taking the neo900 money and using it for founding a different device ;)
<wpwrak>
larsc: don't open OpenPandora's box ...
<Web-aptosid876_>
hehe
<Web-aptosid876_>
small device must be free software only. no spyphones
<Web-aptosid876_>
esp for networking
<Web-aptosid876_>
especially
<whitequark>
then you don't really have much choice
<Web-aptosid876_>
nn i guess :P
<Web-aptosid876_>
or neo900
<whitequark>
no usb host or wifi or line-in (I think?) and apparently no good sound output
<whitequark>
neo900 doesn't exist yet
<whitequark>
Web-aptosid876_: well, here's an idea for you
<Web-aptosid876_>
I know. I'm the one with the sound woes with my NN.
<whitequark>
don't use a consumer device, rather buy a devboard. e.g. beaglebone or something like that.
<Web-aptosid876_>
I was going to say...
<whitequark>
afaik beaglebone is 100% free software and I think it has most or all the features you want
<Web-aptosid876_>
I think I could make a fat but pocketable computer with it
<DocScrutinizer05>
Web-aptosid876_: honestly? get a used cheap working N900
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: that still has proprietary dialer
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure
<Web-aptosid876_>
what he said
<Web-aptosid876_>
even the sound needs non-free this and that
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I didn't read anything about WWAN in the "specs"
<larsc>
even if the dialer is open source the modem will probably still run a closed firmware
<Web-aptosid876_>
I would have but nokia doomed it.
<DocScrutinizer05>
nope, audio works just fine on ALSA level, you can even install gentoo on N900 and it "just works", except for the phone part
<DocScrutinizer05>
larsc: every phone has such closed GSM stack
<Web-aptosid876_>
I looked at the wiki page year or two ago, didn't look good
<DocScrutinizer05>
*sshrug*
<larsc>
DocScrutinizer05: yea, that's what I said
<Web-aptosid876_>
re spy gsm stack, thats why I like the neo900. when the modem is off it's off.
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>small device with good sound output, usb host?, and maybe free-wifi? bouns: good audio line-in<< the latter one only via USB audio dongle
<DocScrutinizer05>
no spy GSM stack on N900 either
<Web-aptosid876_>
I expect the only way for line-in is usb audio interface
<DocScrutinizer05>
since N900 also has separate "detached" modem subsystem
<Web-aptosid876_>
?? what.
<Web-aptosid876_>
but is the modem off when its off?
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically yes
<Web-aptosid876_>
so it's "off" but on
<DocScrutinizer05>
lemme put it this way: when it generally wasn't, a lot of people already would've noticed that
<DocScrutinizer05>
the modem's schematics are known, so no hidden microphone or anything in it
<Web-aptosid876_>
so can it get upto no good when it's "off" or is it like the neo900 that it can't when it's off
<DocScrutinizer05>
afaik there's no way for the modem to turn evil when it's "off", due to the firmware which never exposed such behavior
<Web-aptosid876_>
so when I switch the modem off can it still be giving my positon away? sorry to be a pain
<DocScrutinizer05>
and even when the modem "wakes up" out of nowhere or by command of its evil remote master, it can't do much bad
<whitequark>
I personally would be more concerned by statistics rather than singular pinpointing events
<Web-aptosid876_>
which is why 99% of the time it would be off
<whitequark>
and unless you abstain from ever receiving calls, there's no way you can prevent an able party from collecting such statistics
<whitequark>
and if you never receive calls or SMS messages, honestly the usefulness of GSM is very limited in my book
<Web-aptosid876_>
I hardly need to be callable by any one.
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, when the modem is off, there is no known way it could give away your position, unless NSA cooperated with Nokia to create a new signed spyware firmware for the N900 and then installed that to your device when you weren't looking
<Web-aptosid876_>
ok. thats a bit better :P thanks
<Web-aptosid876_>
hehe
<Web-aptosid876_>
I don't need gsm but it's a nice small device with good sound out and usb host
<Web-aptosid876_>
but some times in the year having internet via gsm has it's uses
<DocScrutinizer05>
however when the N900 isn't in airplane or tablet mode (modem off), then the N900 is one of those phones where Abby of CSI gets the GPS position without even calling the device
<Web-aptosid876_>
I would expect that
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's even a huge number of N900 where modem chip is broken and will definitely not work anymore
<Web-aptosid876_>
oh great where lol
<DocScrutinizer05>
should be pretty cheap on fleabay
<Web-aptosid876_>
so there a distro for the neo900 with no nokia non-free junk?
<Web-aptosid876_>
what about support and updates (like security updates)
<Web-aptosid876_>
dead I assume
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<DocScrutinizer05>
there are several "distros" adapted to N900. And N900 being a discontinued product, it doesn't receive any product level industrial support, it's up to the community to provide such support and updates
<Web-aptosid876_>
flip I missed it when I was reading that thread
<pcercuei_>
the bugs we have with USB is with hot-plugging
<pcercuei_>
I fixed that not so long ago so that hot-plugging works, but I'm still not certain that it's secure enough to enable it by default on the firmware
<Web-aptosid876_>
arr not so good for a on the go portable audio recording =D
<Web-aptosid876_>
hmm oh choices choices
<Web-aptosid876_>
perhaps add a sig to your forum profile "I'm the GCW Zero dev" or something
<pcercuei_>
and get lots of angry PMs? no way :)
<Web-aptosid876_>
lol
<Web-aptosid876_>
btw that dam forum is behind cloud whats-it = tor users blocked grrr
<DocScrutinizer05>
angry PM? then you're soing sth wrong ;-P
<DocScrutinizer05>
doing*
<Web-aptosid876_>
open panda has keybaord & looks more converance of my non gaming needed
<Web-aptosid876_>
convent
<pcercuei_>
maybe
<pcercuei_>
DocScrutinizer05: people just want their candy
<Web-aptosid876_>
I'm not going to use it as a games console. a note taker, audio recorder, music player, address book, todo list, etc
<DocScrutinizer05>
get the right "avatar", they will reconsider X-P
<pcercuei_>
get a cheap Android phone
<pcercuei_>
that would work better as a PDA ...
<Web-aptosid876_>
been there done that, yuck. evil corps, non-free software, after 2years no more suport = disposable junk, citezen servalance device. never. I won't make the same mistake again. never ever
<Web-aptosid876_>
does the gwc zero need non-free firmware/driver for the wifi?
<pcercuei_>
the driver is FOSS, but it has a non-free firmware
<pcercuei_>
there is a FOSS version in mainline Linux, but it doesn't work as good
<pcercuei_>
that's the only non-free bit that we have on the full software stack, by the way
<pcercuei_>
even the GPU driver is FOSS
<Web-aptosid876_>
thanks for the info. could you add that info to the website for people like me please :)
<Web-aptosid876_>
oh the GPU's been revsengearied wohoo!
<Web-aptosid876_>
if I don't so that sort of info when I'm looking at product, I lose hope ;)
<pcercuei_>
I'm not in charge of the website
<Web-aptosid876_>
ok, or the wiki at least
<Web-aptosid876_>
someone any one :)
<Web-aptosid876_>
but yea thanks very much
<Web-aptosid876_>
I remmber now. I can't even buy a gcw zero. thats why I gave up.
<Web-aptosid876_>
no stock
<pcercuei_>
where are you located?
<Web-aptosid876_>
uk
<pcercuei_>
Thinkgeek should have stock
<Web-aptosid876_>
flip
<pcercuei_>
as well as dragonbox.de
<Web-aptosid876_>
dragon no stock but thinkgeek does
<Web-aptosid876_>
wow £90!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! shocked
<pcercuei_>
go figure how much an openpandora costs ;)
<Web-aptosid876_>
£350
<Web-aptosid876_>
hmm oh dear
<Web-aptosid876_>
£113 with post
<Web-aptosid876_>
price aside. what non-free blobs does the openpandora have?
<Web-aptosid876_>
there seams to be a lot of twats that don't know what there moaning about in the OP forums :(
<wpwrak>
lots of twats ? gee, you must be have stumbled into the internet thing :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: I don't see the difference
<DocScrutinizer05>
again ran into FSF RYF shit
<Web-aptosid876_>
ryf?
<DocScrutinizer05>
probelm is people have no clue, even when they think they ought have
<DocScrutinizer05>
Respects Your Freedom FSF hw certification, which is bullshit
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: lmgtfy "types" the query for you, suggesting that whoever asked you could have found the answer on their own
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: I don't need that
<DocScrutinizer05>
:-)
<wpwrak>
yeah, FSF is more hindrance than help for hardware
<Web-aptosid876_>
why do you think RYF is bs? makes my life easier
<DocScrutinizer05>
"we `only´ have to find a SoC with a more free GPU" ROTFL!!!
<Web-aptosid876_>
I did amuse at that
<DocScrutinizer05>
"WiFi is no problem" double-rotfl
<wpwrak>
they do have unexpected uses, though. e.g., i considered the replicant project a complete waste of time, but since they're forced to have a very good look at where the non-openness issues lie with different pieces of hardware, they're actually a good source for this sort of information
<DocScrutinizer05>
WiFi is a mega problem when you follow FSF idiotic rules of "no user updateable firmware in subsystems"
<Web-aptosid876_>
no such thing as free gpu only if reverse engineered :(
<Web-aptosid876_>
well I guess if your danger level is max then "no user updateable firmware in subsystems" is what you want? if it's not free
<DocScrutinizer05>
you need a hardmac/fullmac WLAN chip or your CPU kills your battery, and you want to be able to hack that firmware for this MCU embedded in WLAN chip. And you hardly ever can find a FOSS formware for that MCU. So what you gonna do? Use an inferior WLAN chip that forbids hacking of firmware so FSF feels happy? FOOOOOOOOLS!
<DocScrutinizer05>
who tells you that the non-updateable firmware is free of rogue bugs or backdoors, to start with?
<Web-aptosid876_>
no one but the change the wifi firmware attack isn't a option
<Web-aptosid876_>
for the attacker
<DocScrutinizer05>
and how will you ever find out when FSF tells you "no you hacker, you mustn't touch this! This is no software, this is hardware!"
<DocScrutinizer05>
really, FSF *limiting* my freedom in name of my freedom?? No thanks!
<Web-aptosid876_>
I don't quite understand what you mean?~
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's still this old cheesy hubris of "we will FORCE them to open their sourcecode"
<DocScrutinizer05>
and on Neo900 we will NOT install exxtra MCUs to *block* firmware update on modem or WLAN chips
<Web-aptosid876_>
wants wrong with demanding libre(=no power over you) softwares for your hardware
<Web-aptosid876_>
MCU?
<Web-aptosid876_>
readonly flash?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry when you don't understand how a firmware update for my DVD-ROM drive or my modem or my WLAN is EMpowering me to improve stuff, then I can't help. I don't get how you think a firmware image provided by a chip manuf so you can flash newest control software to a subsystem would have *power over you* :-o
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<Web-aptosid876_>
hmm... danger danger getting out of depth :)... ok....
<Web-aptosid876_>
I was talking generaly
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the psychosis of FSF that everything that looks like software has to comply with their rules, no matter on which CPU in which context it runs
<Web-aptosid876_>
I thoght it only applid to networking. cd-rom FW isn't a concern for them
<Web-aptosid876_>
wifi and i guess ethernet thats all
<DocScrutinizer05>
so I can quote a mail from Stallman to me where he asked if we maybe could create a write protect in the modem, so FSF could *define* the whole modem as **HARDWARE**
<DocScrutinizer05>
WUT?
<DocScrutinizer05>
nonsense
<Web-aptosid876_>
ok and modem
<Web-aptosid876_>
..
<Web-aptosid876_>
hmm
<Web-aptosid876_>
I think the readonly flash came from existing hardware and the question of the lesser evil. then I guess it's became option X for desperate measure's with non-free networking firmware.
<Web-aptosid876_>
in new products
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<Web-aptosid876_>
I'm being the middle man, sorry don't take it personally
<Web-aptosid876_>
but personally the option of re-flashing it with firmware like the leaked source code for the gta02 is attractive
<DocScrutinizer05>
which FSF would forbid for your higher interestes
<Web-aptosid876_>
I woudn't put it like they want power over me.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
and actually GTA02 is a good example why the whole FSF approach is bullshit, since GTA03 originally *been* certified by FSF afaik, since we thought there's no way for user to update the modem firmware ever. We found a way to do it nevertheless later on, so what's with the certification? been it moot from beginning, from the point where we found about that option, or been it BS since FSF invented it?
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/GTA03/GTA02/
<DocScrutinizer05>
bot dead?
<Web-aptosid876_>
grep s/GTA03/GTA02/g
<DocScrutinizer05>
eh?
<Web-aptosid876_>
didn't you forget the "/g" ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no
<Web-aptosid876_>
sorry my bad
<DocScrutinizer05>
s/o/i/
<qi-bot>
DocScrutinizer05 meant: "ni"
<Web-aptosid876_>
ok
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<Web-aptosid876_>
I've had mixed feeling on the readlony firmware subject adn still do'ish. I think I'll play middle man on the subject for both sides for now.
<Web-aptosid876_>
both sides of the argument
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<wpwrak>
a good way to maximize the number of enemies, for both can consider you a traitor to the cause ;-)
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<Web-aptosid876_>
evey one hated me in school for no good reson. I'm used to it.
<Web-aptosid876_>
I try to use bad will given to me to push my self into a better place
<Web-aptosid876_>
now
<Web-aptosid876_>
but thanks
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<Web-aptosid876_>
so back to finding out if I can run a openpandora libre only style :)
<Web-aptosid876_>
or if it's a huge mess of binarys
<DocScrutinizer05>
and re OpenPandora: I guess since it's a OMAP/DM3x30 system, it's just the same like Neo900 and N900 and beagleboard
<DocScrutinizer05>
you have a blob for OpenGL-ES but only needed for 3D accel, and you probably have a firmware for WLAN chipset since all embedded needs a fullmac WLAN or it will earn a lot of hate
<Web-aptosid876_>
ok devils advocate hat on. I guess there consed that if the "slip" on phone modem then projects will slip on wifi. wifi can be done via usb. the users don't know the differane what they do know is that it makes up a hole device. it's built in. not something that is temply plugin in to your laptop.
<DocScrutinizer05>
for some chipsets I *guess* there are RE'd firmwares, e.g. I *guess* the packet injection driver for the N900 cis such a critter
<Web-aptosid876_>
there concern
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry?
<Web-aptosid876_>
spell corection or the overall senticne?
<Web-aptosid876_>
just dumping a thought out there thats all.
<DocScrutinizer05>
when I buy a computer system with a FOSS OS, certified by FSF, will it lose cert when I plug in a printer that doesn't come with FOSS firmware inside the printer?
<Web-aptosid876_>
thats your choice to plug it in
<DocScrutinizer05>
will cert be void when I mount the printer at the side of the PC case with 8 screws?
<Web-aptosid876_>
it's separator
<whitequark>
ha, fun fact. my notebook shows 101.01% of battery charge right now
<whitequark>
... because it is quite hot and I guess the fuel gauge got crazy
<DocScrutinizer05>
will cert be void when I build a case for both the PC and the printer?
<Web-aptosid876_>
yes becuase it then becomes part of the "product". it's sold with it
<DocScrutinizer05>
Web-aptosid876_: I have a completely different notion on this
<Web-aptosid876_>
I know
<Web-aptosid876_>
:)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I can *prove* that FSF has no idea about which peripherals come with own MCU and own firmware: evidence: Stallman using a laptop with harddisk
<Web-aptosid876_>
oh theres a hard one
<DocScrutinizer05>
or worse: with eMMC or SSD
<Web-aptosid876_>
...again it's not _networking_
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I bet that laptop has a touchpad, and a keyboard controller, and maybe even a CD-drive
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: haha, excellent
<Web-aptosid876_>
yea I thought of that after pressing enter
<DocScrutinizer05>
who says "networking"??? you made that up!
<DocScrutinizer05>
wtf is wrong with networking when the harddisk cripples my data and hides the bootsector virus from me?
<Web-aptosid876_>
I'm going off my unreliable memory. I did say danger danger getting out of deft early didn't I ;)
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, I sometimes can't parse your english
<Web-aptosid876_>
yep very good point was wondering about that too