DocScrutinizer05 changed the topic of #qi-hardware to: Copyleft hardware - http://qi-hardware.com | hardware hackers join here to discuss Ben NanoNote, atben / atusb 802.15.4 wireless, and other community driven hw projects | public logging at http://en.qi-hardware.com/irclogs and http://irclog.whitequark.org/qi-hardware
<whitequark> whereas FeCl3, CuCl2 and others apparently do not
<whitequark> that'll explain a few things
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<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: hm, wild idea
<whitequark> retrofit an used inkjet to print silkscreen right on pcb
<whitequark> wow, russian forums seem to be chock full of people making amazing PCBs
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<DocScrutinizer05> ((retrofit an used inkjet)) seems I already suggested that?
<DocScrutinizer05> actually mounting the inkjet print head to your CNC will be way more convenient
<whitequark> hmm
<whitequark> well I still have no idea for sanely attaching *anything* to my CNC
<wpwrak> (more acid research) i heard HF is fun, too. and it's not HCl, so you don't have to be afraid of it ;-)
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* whitequark slaps wpwrak around a bit with a large trout
<whitequark> also I didn't mention acid even once
<whitequark> I actually found a fascinating basic method of etching, using copper ammonia complexes
<whitequark> but I'm reluctant to check it out because 1) basic solutions degrade resist 2) it involves using about 0.5L of ammonia water
<wpwrak> speaking of FUN, did you know that UF4 + 3 UN + 1/2 N2 -> 4 UNF aka FUN ? :)
<whitequark> I can't even imagine that horrendous stench
<whitequark> no
<whitequark> and I don't really want to enrich uranium
<wpwrak> hmm, i didn't find NH3 too repulsive. but maybe that was just because there weren't a lot of cats around to serve as reference
<wpwrak> (uranium) c'mon. if you keep on talking like this, they'll revoke your russian citizenship
<whitequark> wpwrak: well, seems like you haven't worked with 30% NH3 then
<whitequark> when I got it I wondered how it smells. despite doing everything properly I got some experience I will likely never forget
<whitequark> not entirely unlike being punched in head
<wpwrak> dunno how strong it was. this kind of critter: http://wunderbare80er.blogspot.com.ar/2011/10/kosmos-chemiebaukasten.html
<wpwrak> but you had to get the liquids from a pharmacy
<whitequark> not sure. my one is from a chemical supplier. pharmacies most likely don't sell such concentrated solutions
<whitequark> diluted 5-10x (and with concentration further reduced by complex forming) the stench is entirely reasonable
<wpwrak> hah, found it. NH3, 25%
<whitequark> sounds about right
<wpwrak> H2SO4 30%, HNO3 30%, HCl 20% (sissies !), NaOH 25%, and NH3 25%
<whitequark> so... you can smell that and not wish you'd rather be dead?
<whitequark> hah, concentrated HNO3. what for?
<wpwrak> everything from the pharmacy, almost next door, in switzerland
<whitequark> hmmm
<whitequark> wow
<whitequark> I thought europe regulated the shit out of chemical supplies
<whitequark> okay, I'm now definitely more happy about possible relocation to EU :D
<wpwrak> yummy goodies like AgNO3, BaCl2, and K2Cr2O7 came already with the box :)
<whitequark> K2Cr2O7!!
<whitequark> I certainly hope you read the MSDS for that :p
<whitequark> btw, I just had an idea
<whitequark> EU and US regulate the crap out of hypophosphite
<wpwrak> well, it had a warning label "Attention, toxic !" :)
<whitequark> but it is likely that they don't care about dilute solutions of hypophosphite
<whitequark> so maybe it's possible to mail that
<whitequark> wpwrak: (toxic) nah. well, it is, but worse, it's a very potent carcinogen
<whitequark> would be sad to lose you so quickly
* wpwrak - upon realizing what he has done decades ago - croaks instantly
<wpwrak> HNO3 ... dunno. can't find a complete manual online :(
<whitequark> wpwrak: what have you done?
<whitequark> lemme guess, bichromate volcano?
<wpwrak> heh, that would have been fun :)
<whitequark> FSVO fun... *shrug*
* whitequark tries to thermally decompose hypophosphite now
<wpwrak> i actually did experiment with a bit of volcanoes but i think i stayed with relatively safe chemicals
<whitequark> wow, appears to have worked
<DocScrutinizer05> ((30% NH3)) I did. Iodine Ammonia
<whitequark> well no doubts here
<whitequark> :D
<DocScrutinizer05> fun when eyes start burning and tears flow
<whitequark> we tried to do this in HS, but it didn't get quite dry enough or something
<whitequark> so it failed
<DocScrutinizer05> and that stuff can really make you feel like suffocating
<DocScrutinizer05> backside of usual bathroom tiles is *great* fro drying Iodine Ammonia
<DocScrutinizer05> but you really should open all windows ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05> for several very good reasons
<whitequark> well, in HS we had a proper hume food
<whitequark> er
<whitequark> fume ohod
<whitequark> hood
<whitequark> guess I really need to chew something
<DocScrutinizer05> weirdest experience been when that stuff started smoking while drying
<whitequark> unreacted iodine?
<DocScrutinizer05> possibly
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<DocScrutinizer05> I created saturated KaJ + J solution
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe it tripped the saturation point when KaJ got diluted in Ammonia
<wpwrak> ah, and i produced a bit of air freshener at school. H2S. now i know that i got off very lightly ;-)
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<whitequark> mhmm
<whitequark> possible
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<DocScrutinizer05> fun OT factoid (that maybe shows a bit about my life): 12 months ago my energy supplier calculated monthly downpay for me, based on previous 12 months, now they recalculated based on last 12 months. Difference: 1,3%
<whitequark> not sure what it menas
<whitequark> *means
<DocScrutinizer05> seems always-on of a few IT and LED lamps results in an amazingly constant over-all consumption. I only wonder how my 28kW waterheater comes in there
<whitequark> LED lamps, didn't you rant here about incandescent quite a bit?
<DocScrutinizer05> yes, I said it's a pity they are not available anymore
<whitequark> ah
* whitequark uses fluorescent... couldn't quite find good LED lamps for my socket
<DocScrutinizer05> when I really started ranting then about Hg-filled "energy saver" FL lamps
<DocScrutinizer05> which go dark after a year at most, when they don't break completely before that timespan
<DocScrutinizer05> last time my fuse tripped been from a energysaver CFL-lamp
<DocScrutinizer05> :-/
<whitequark> mhm, maybe I'm less sensitive, but these CFL lamps don't burn out in a year
<whitequark> in a five maybe
<DocScrutinizer05> maybe yours are better quality. Russian quality? ;-)
<whitequark> chinese ofcourse
<DocScrutinizer05> well, I used up three of those critters during last 5 years
<whitequark> russia maybe does only those huge lamps used in street lights, or maybe those long rods you see in industrial/government buildings
<DocScrutinizer05> I think two failed after maybe 1000h
<whitequark> they seem pretty simple to fuck up
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<DocScrutinizer05> umm, s/CFL/CCFL/ ?
<DocScrutinizer05> Cold Cathode
<whitequark> ccfl
<DocScrutinizer05> though *some* of those energywaster have even heated cathodes
<whitequark> I know a guy who was anal enough about lighting that he bought a quartz lamp somewhere overseas, rated for I don't even know how much kW
<whitequark> when asked, he told me "I like my workplace brightly lit"
<whitequark> well a week after he bought it, he got a visit from law enforcement. door torn from his hands or even broken (can't remember), him lying face down on the floor
<whitequark> turns out similar lamps (with different spectrum) are used to grow cannabis, and his package tripped something at customs
<DocScrutinizer05> LOL
<DocScrutinizer05> yeah, those HQL are fine for growing plants
<DocScrutinizer05> but, honestly, way too bright for working
<DocScrutinizer05> well, mine was an insane 400W
<DocScrutinizer05> http://www.mueller-licht.de/en/lamps/energy-saving-lamps/spiral-shape-e27 comes with pre-heating, so no CC
<DocScrutinizer05> they need to do this since they use amalgam instead of liquid pure Hg
<DocScrutinizer05> aiui
<DocScrutinizer05> kinda works
<DocScrutinizer05> IOW that one shines since 2 years 24/7 almost
<DocScrutinizer05> with ~5 on/off sycles per day
<DocScrutinizer05> 2 Phillips, 2 Osram, and one Pleomax are waiting for getting discarded
<DocScrutinizer05> 3 orsram
<DocScrutinizer05> :-S
<DocScrutinizer05> makes more than one per year
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<DocScrutinizer05> anyway, any detals about that etching magics?
<DocScrutinizer05> details
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<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: working on it right now
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<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: in some 40 mins I'll take pcb out of plating bath
<whitequark> we'll see then
<whitequark> DocScrutinizer05: you know what is most impressive
<whitequark> I didn't use any copper brightener whatsoever, neither I added acid or NaCl to the bath
<whitequark> yet the copper layer seems to be pretty smooth so far
<whitequark> luck?
<whitequark> I mean, I basically go against any established principles of copper plating
<whitequark> (because I'm lazy and I don't have any acid right now)
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<whitequark> I wonder why current has grown from .15mA to .25mA over last 30 mins
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<whitequark> ok, should be done
<whitequark> ...
<whitequark> seems like it worked \o/
<whitequark> wow, I didn't even expect this
<whitequark> how the fuck do I take a photo of an 1mm hole?!
<whitequark> that is, um, a rather odd result
<whitequark> actually there was so much copper plated that holes became too small!
<whitequark> seems like I need a more even layer of activation solution on board
<whitequark> wpwrak: DocScrutinizer05: https://code.google.com/p/rtstepperemc/
<whitequark> basically exactly what I wanted to do with EMC2
<whitequark> though I wonder if it even works
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<wpwrak> sounds sweet :)
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<whitequark> wpwrak: how do you deal with burr around drilled holes in pcbs?
<whitequark> I have a rather extreme problem with it
<whitequark> in fact some of the raised edges I have are almost 1mm in height
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<wpwrak> whitequark: burr ? in holes ? never heard of it :)
<wpwrak> at least not for the small ones, for vias. may be different if i made huge holes
<wpwrak> burr is usually favoured by dull cutting edges. maybe weak fixtures may also be a factor (though mine aren't exactly fortresses)
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<whitequark> no, around holes
<whitequark> lifted copper around them on both sides
<whitequark> hrmm... I may have had some limited success with plating
<whitequark> but solder sure as hell isn't pulled by capillary effect into those holes
<whitequark> meaning they're unsuitable for actual work.
<whitequark> guess I need to figure out the proper bath finally.
<whitequark> interesting though; while the plated layer does come off in flakes, it requires quite some muscular effort to do so
<whitequark> e.g. I would say the force is comparable with force required to tear off factory laminated copper, if you have a lifted corner
<whitequark> (in flakes) i.e. it nevertheless bonds to itself much stronger than to underlying copper or dielectric
<wpwrak> (drill) what Z speed do you use ?
<zrafa> wpwrak: yes, but in libswd/ we have cc25*.c which is built by Makefile and used by ben.c . So I needed to comment those parts of ben.c so I can build the swd software to try with our mcu
<zrafa> without CC* stuff
<wpwrak> well, you could just leave it in and ignore it. it doesn't get in the way.
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<kristianpaul> wpwrak: What waveform generator do you have?
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<wpwrak> picotest g5100a
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