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<DocScrutinizer05>
anybody ever heard of tandemlaunch(.com)?
<DocScrutinizer05>
when they approach you and ask you for an interview, I wonder if that's a good sign
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't see what exactly they would do for me, so I would want to 2waste time" for such interview
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<larsc>
a job interview?
<larsc>
or about neo900?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no info
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, something like "I'm very interested in your project"
<DocScrutinizer05>
to neo900 contact mail addr
<DocScrutinizer05>
so she even could act as a customer who thinks it's a nice idea to talk to the manufacturers of her next phone
<larsc>
so it's about neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
I however wonder if that's a game I want to play
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<DocScrutinizer05>
our "project" isn't exactly about investors and university research
<DocScrutinizer05>
nor are we investors ourselves
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's basically the whole mail: >>I am very interested in this project, and wondered if you would have some time for a call to chat a bit. I'm interested to know how you got started with this project and some of the key challenges so far. I will also be travelling to Germany later in the year and would be interested in connecting.<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm temped to answer "well, fine! thanks for your interest, but what is this chat all about? I'm pretty busy"
<DocScrutinizer05>
"or are you asking for a date? Yes, I'm single" ;-)
<larsc>
they are probably interested in crowed funded projects in general
<DocScrutinizer05>
she either is really personally interested in Neo900 and tries to help with whatever problems we might face. Or she's just doing her usual acquisition job and I doubt Neo900 is the right target for tandemlaunch
<larsc>
they are probably not so much interested in the product itself, but rather in your methods
<DocScrutinizer05>
why would I want to share my "business secrets" with them?
<lekernel>
they seem to be the networking-crazy types
<larsc>
DocScrutinizer05: because people like to talk
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, networking can easily become a time sink that's turning into a vamp for you personally
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: she's probably just curious. after all, your project is rather ambitious.
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, maybe I could invite her to a irc chat
<DocScrutinizer05>
I hate phone calls
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<wpwrak>
lekernel: that's the spirit ! there you find plenty of crazy minds that could hatch The Next Big Thing (or bring the world to a rapid but messy end :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehehe
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: yeah, the phone call and even personal meeting suggest that she doesn't deal much with this type of curmudgeon :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
like bio hacking? (topic in recent c't hardware hacks issue)
<wpwrak>
probably lacks job experience :)
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<wpwrak>
bio hacking sounds great. "make your own flu strain, with a touch of marburg. all you need is on github. p.s. be careful !"
<DocScrutinizer05>
apart from the fact I had to pester dig about that term, I doubt I really read you
<larsc>
wpwrak: airborne aids
<DocScrutinizer05>
dig translates to "Griesgram, Geizhals"
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: well, generally the sort of people who don't like contact with other people too much
<DocScrutinizer05>
(ambitious) yeah probably too much
<wpwrak>
(ambitious) running into new problems ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm pretty lost with internal organizational problems atm
<wpwrak>
people or parts management ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it not fires back that we didn't plan all details from beginning
<DocScrutinizer05>
people
<DocScrutinizer05>
. s/not/now/
<wpwrak>
ah, any details ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
it seems like even the shipping of complete devices with case is not really consens
<wpwrak>
people problems are always interestiong :)
<wpwrak>
ah, custome issues. even better.
<wpwrak>
customeR
<DocScrutinizer05>
no
<DocScrutinizer05>
.s/shipping/building/
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm wondering if I still can represent the project to our customers. Seems I'm not competent to communicate what the product will look like
<wpwrak>
is nikolaus involved in PR ?
<wpwrak>
else, do you have any people who are close enough in the loop that they could explain it ? dos1 ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
so with a 6 weeks delay to my own former plans, I now *really* need to think about whether or not I can do this project or shall cancel it
<wpwrak>
6 weeks accumulated or 6 weeks projected ? (in any case, delays are normal :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
my original plans said "2014-01-01: decide if the project is feasible or cancel it"
<wpwrak>
and, how's the list of blockers evolving ?
<wpwrak>
in any case, if you have delays or new issues, don't be shy to talk about them
<DocScrutinizer05>
at that time around new year it looked good but I missed to look at the internal organizational issues and how to solve them
<wpwrak>
people hate to be left in the dark. but if you tell them that something is wrong and what you're doing to fix it, they're happy
<DocScrutinizer05>
the blocker is: we got no consensus about who's doing what
<DocScrutinizer05>
and what the product should look like
<wpwrak>
(org) ah, i thought nikolaus would basically project-manage and you'd do the engineering
<DocScrutinizer05>
it turned around
<wpwrak>
well, about who's doing what, make a list, get all the people who are involved or who want to (and have something to contribute) on the table and hash it out
<DocScrutinizer05>
and he's not very interested in my project management
<wpwrak>
so do you have mainly overlaps or mainly holes ?
<wpwrak>
"not very interested in my project management" = he doesn't want you to manage things ? or, he doesn't want to manage you ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
pup plain: I announce "while we're basically planning to sell complete devices ready to use, we also will offer swap mianboard for you" and he's not interested in sourcing of cases
<DocScrutinizer05>
put*
<wpwrak>
(cases) hmm. does he think it's too hard ? or just not interested ? or maybe too risky ? (QA, EU regulations, etc.)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I dunno
<wpwrak>
(cases) also, has he disagreed with you in public or in private ? if in public, what were the reactions ?
<wpwrak>
well, he should explain himself a little :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
he simply focuses on building the boards and ignores my requests to get case samples etc
<wpwrak>
ah, i see. yes, you'd need these
<wpwrak>
could you justify the case samples as testing that the board will work in cases customers source on their own ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
when a helpful guy asked about what he should ask for at that company in UAE, Nikolaus answered "well we don't need any of that stuff"
<wpwrak>
that way, you could defer the resolution of the conflict ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
(it's only cases etc)
<wpwrak>
company in UAE ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
nevermind, not relevant
<DocScrutinizer05>
since 8 weeks the only thing we discuss internally is friggin business stuff
<wpwrak>
alas, that's important, too
<DocScrutinizer05>
and no solution I come up seems feasible for GDC
<wpwrak>
be happy that he takes care of all the bureaucracy for you
<wpwrak>
solution ... for cases ? or other stuff ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, like the workers in sotchi?
<DocScrutinizer05>
for business agreements
<wpwrak>
sotchi = your fab ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sotchi = oolympia
<wpwrak>
ah yes, the world mass surveillance summit
<DocScrutinizer05>
"what? payment? be happy you got no tzrouble with all the papers!"
<wpwrak>
that's roughly how i'd think of such administrivia ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's roughly what you suggested I should accept from GDC
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure I'm allowed to get case samples... when I pay for them
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm paying for the server neo900.org
<wpwrak>
he needs to relax a bit on your budget
<DocScrutinizer05>
what budget?
<wpwrak>
aso that shuold come from the project. you don't have money for that
<wpwrak>
isn't he sitting on some 67 kEUR + interest ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
we have no contract, I have no budget.
<wpwrak>
nota bene, all provided as "donation". so if it comes to that, it's burn money
<wpwrak>
you don't need a contract - a gentleman't agreement can be just fine. but you need to have a common understanding.
<DocScrutinizer05>
he can't pass any of that to me, it's on a invoice from GDC, every single cent donated
<wpwrak>
there's no point in him blocking you from what you have to do
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly
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<DocScrutinizer05>
except for him defining what I have to do
<DocScrutinizer05>
and getting case samples is not on that list of stuff he defined for my tasks
<wpwrak>
why can't he pass things to you ? "werbeausgaben" ? or put you on some service contract and make that part of the materials he provides. problem solved.
<wpwrak>
maybe the things would still nominally be GDC's property, but who cares
<DocScrutinizer05>
such contract is what we're negotiating since 8 weeks now
<DocScrutinizer05>
to no success
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<wpwrak>
ah, i see. what's the problem spot there ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
as I said above, no solution I come up with is acceptable to GDC
<wpwrak>
any details ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
nah, complexity of suggested solutions from his side increases by the week, and when I write it down and start to implement it, he changes his mind
<DocScrutinizer05>
6 weeks ago we planned to get a GmbH and transfer all donations to that GmbH account. GDC gets back VAT and UG pays VAT
<DocScrutinizer05>
current state: can't be done
<wpwrak>
can't GDC simply continue running things and just contract you ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I wasted 6 weeks or more to found a GmbH
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, for how much? 400EUR/month?
<wpwrak>
whatever you two agree on
<DocScrutinizer05>
whatever is feasible. Nikolaus defines what's feasible. I usually agree that a salary that's sufficient to make a living is NOT feasible
<wpwrak>
so you disagree on the amount ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no we agree that the amount needed isn't feasible
<wpwrak>
;-)
<wpwrak>
so you plan to live on an amount you can't live on ? or do you plan to seek other sources of income ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I can't accept an employment that is some 600 or 1000 bucks bruto per month
<DocScrutinizer05>
employment means I (and my employer) need to pay taxes and health insurance and whatnot else
<larsc>
so you work for free?
<DocScrutinizer05>
I did so far, hoping sending an invoice about some 5k bucks for R&D (estimated 9 months of work), plus a few bucks per device sold
<wpwrak>
that's if you're an employee. if you're just contracting, the "employer" has no such obligations, at least not if it's only for a relatively short while (e.g., you can't do this for several years - see "scheinselbststaendigkeit")
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's what we started with, but GDC doesn't feel like being able to do that
<wpwrak>
dunno what sort of obligations you have as the contractor. generally less than an employee (via the employer) would have. but there are some. ask people who have worked that way, e.g., roh. he'll know.
<DocScrutinizer05>
then came GmbH suggestion
<DocScrutinizer05>
then a week or two ago, GmbH suggestion got cancelled
<wpwrak>
that's by far the easiest approach. gmbh and all that is a LOT more complex.
<DocScrutinizer05>
and all that is just the fsckng business part of it
<wpwrak>
note that a contractor has no "minimum wage" or such either. you can just charge by the hour, however little or much that it.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
nothing about product specs yet, nothing about project management
<wpwrak>
well, you have to start somewhere :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm fed up with it
<DocScrutinizer05>
since 4 days
<wpwrak>
would nikolaus still be involved in the GmbH ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
initially we planned that, then he agreed that it's not needed. (just before he basically cancelled the whole GmbH idea)
<wpwrak>
agreed ... so you didn't want him there ? or did he want out ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
we both agreed that it makes no sense, since *his* margin per device is secured by him buiolding the boards
<wpwrak>
or does he want you out ? it seems that there's a bit of a passive-aggressive war, but i don't quite see about what
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<wpwrak>
"makes no sense' = the cases, the GmbH, ... ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
him being part of the GmbH
<DocScrutinizer05>
but then he noticed that he cannot transfer the donations to the GmbH account
<DocScrutinizer05>
so what for do we *need* a GmbH at all?
<wpwrak>
so the GmBH would get the money, parts ordered so far, and project responsibility, and would then contract GDC for making the boards
<wpwrak>
hehe :)
<wpwrak>
yes, that's a problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, and I'm fed up with it
<lekernel>
DocScrutinizer05, if you want to stay in paperwork-land (I'm happy to GTFO to Hong Kong by the end of the year), a e.V. might also work
<wpwrak>
but couldn't the GbmH be be daughter of GDC ?
<wpwrak>
then transferring assets should be fine
<lekernel>
and is less paperwork BS than a GmbH, and you can transfer donations
<DocScrutinizer05>
NFC
<wpwrak>
sounds like an idea
<lekernel>
it's much cheaper to found, too
<DocScrutinizer05>
look, all donations are booked to GDC bookkeeping. VAT got paid. Last year's bilance done.
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nikolaus telling me he can't move the money to thr GmbH
<DocScrutinizer05>
he can't move the money anywhere, since now GDC owns it
<lekernel>
you can invoice GDC from a e.V.
<wpwrak>
it he can't move it he doesn't own it
<DocScrutinizer05>
no matter wht our customers thought they are donating to, they effectively donated for a GDC project
<DocScrutinizer05>
and no matter what suggestion I come up with to solve that problem, something doesn't work at GDC side
<wpwrak>
so why not leave the money at GDC then ? he can still use it, can't he ?
<wpwrak>
e.g., to contract a certain joerg for some tasks he chooses to outsource
<DocScrutinizer05>
so when Neo900 is a GDC project, what motivation do I have to continue it?
<lekernel>
can a GmbH receive donations in Germany? iirc there are some countries that don't allow such arrangements
<wpwrak>
do you care if its says "GDC" somewhere (instead of Joerg Ltd.) ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, that been the initial idea. But he insists on me writing an invoice for like 20h per month, for a timespan of like 6 months
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's pretty impossible for +my* bookkeeping, and it doesn't solve any of the royalties-per-device issues
<wpwrak>
what's the problem for your bookkeeping ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
e.g health insurance
<wpwrak>
and the royalties ... you could a) factor them into the invoice, b) negotiate them on the side. especially if they would be on "new" money, which then wouldn't have the "donation" constraints
<DocScrutinizer05>
I eaither earn proper money or nothing at all. i'll starve and get sick from 800EUr/mo
<larsc>
grab your favorite music instrument and go playing in the city center
<wpwrak>
so you want him to pay you without declaring it to the authorities ? i.e., moonlighting ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah sure. To earn the money needed to work for Neo900 project
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's about like it
<wpwrak>
yeah, i can see why that wouldn't work ;-)
<wpwrak>
but a GmbH wouldn't have solved that either
<DocScrutinizer05>
no
<DocScrutinizer05>
a gmbH has no income per se
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's the "nothing at all" option
<wpwrak>
but you couldn't dispose of its money for your own ends, so you'd have to pay yourself a salary or such, which would create exactly the same issues
<DocScrutinizer05>
meh
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<wpwrak>
or you could "steal" from your GmbH. but i doubt you're the first to think of such things ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
we're through with GmbH either way, no matter about me now explaining to you how it been supposed to work
<wpwrak>
be glad that he didn't to the GmbH. you'd be processed for tax evasion with that scheme
<wpwrak>
#s/do/to/
<DocScrutinizer05>
fact been we very initially agreed on 5k payment and he later on insisted on me writing in the invoice that this been for 6 month of work, which I can't do
<wpwrak>
naw, try to do that by the book. find out what you have to do to comply with the regulations, get the cheapest options where, and work on a contract
<DocScrutinizer05>
damn, we did for the last 10 weeks
<lekernel>
DocScrutinizer05, what difference does it make, how many months of work it had been?
<DocScrutinizer05>
or 4 months actually
<wpwrak>
how long have you been working on the project so far ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
lekernel: it makes a damn lot of difference when I pay 6 moths of health insurance or just one
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: irrelevant. Ask how long I work for the project per MONTH
<wpwrak>
hmm, not sure which date determines when that health insurance requirements starts
<wpwrak>
it may well be that it only starts when you actually start seeing money
<lekernel>
mh. when registered as a freelancer, aren't you paying for health insurance a fixed amount every month in Germany, regardless of your invoice volume?
<wpwrak>
lekernel: he probably isn't
<wpwrak>
(registered as a freelancer)
<DocScrutinizer05>
there's no logical reason why I should work 95% per month for free, for 6 months. Instead of 5 months 100% free and one month only 50% free and get paiod for 50%
<lekernel>
well, you need to be registered to write an invoice at all
<lekernel>
and health insurance payments start at registration (and have nothing to do with the invoices you write), as I understand it
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I can't write an invoice for timespan where I wasn't registered
<lekernel>
I doubt they would check that...
<DocScrutinizer05>
all hell breaks loose
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: you may pay more taxes if you get 5 kEUR in one pop. but besides that, it's not a unreasonable amount for just one month or work. or in fact 2 weeks.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<wpwrak>
#s/or/of/
<DocScrutinizer05>
but i pay LOTS more of e.g. health insurance
<larsc>
you can actually register up to three month later than you acutally started working, iirc
<wpwrak>
so what you have to do is a) register, b) get ready to pay what they require of you. there may also be provisions for low income / startups they give you better conditions, at least for a while
<DocScrutinizer05>
and tell you what: I'm totally fed up with this sort of discussion since I had that, geuss when and with whom
<lekernel>
wpwrak, provisions for startups are rotten
<wpwrak>
c) we still need to solve the problem of why nikolaus doesn't want to pay in one pop
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: what it his argument against just billing it all for one month ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
the result of days and days of exactly this discussion been: so let#s found a GmbH
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: NFC
<DocScrutinizer05>
something about his bookkeeping and tax advisor
<wpwrak>
well, he should explain himself :)
<wpwrak>
aah. well, could be that you'd be more expensive than the rest of the company.
<DocScrutinizer05>
you know, I start to fail assuming best intent
<wpwrak>
maybe you'd have to split it into two parts to dodge any suspicion
<wpwrak>
i think there's a good amount of confusion involved on both sides
<DocScrutinizer05>
what the fuck is my problem with "rest of company"?
<wpwrak>
well, you don't want him to get a tax audit because of suspicious shift in his spending pattern, wouldn't you ?
<wpwrak>
tax audit = he basically has to shut down for a while and spend a small fortune on his tax advisor. that doesn't help anyone.
<DocScrutinizer05>
fact is I#m trying to get that shit sorted since 4 months, i#m working for the project since >6 months, and I have *zilch* paper in my hands that guarantees me anything beyond users going after me with pirchforks and torches when GDC fucks up
<wpwrak>
maybe the two of you plus his tax advisor should get together and talk this through face to face. you should find out what costs get created for you if you register as a freelancer and you should also define what amount of money you need per month to be able to continue working on the project.
<lekernel>
meanwhile, google dodges dozens of millions of euros of taxes in Germany :)
<wpwrak>
also, define what additional payments you expect when it reaches production. put it all on the table at once, not bit by bit. that only confuses things.
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: I offered whatever he needs as invoice, as long as it isn't explicitly claiming when the hours got done. When he can't come up with any invoice satisfying that, that doesn't give him an audit, then I dunno what's GDC
<wpwrak>
lekernel: one EUR hidden from the state is tax evasion. one million is valuable business. billions mean that they politely ask you if you need to be bailed out, in case you're not rich enough yet.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not hiding any income
<lekernel>
yeah, I'm getting the hell out of Europe
<larsc>
to sealand?
<lekernel>
Hong Kong
<DocScrutinizer05>
I just insist on reasonable wages per hour and a simple invoice like writing one every day (some of the past years)
<wpwrak>
as long as you don't buy a connection to moscow ...
<larsc>
DocScrutinizer05: if there is no money for that, there is no money for that
<DocScrutinizer05>
working for some 10EUR per hour is embarrassing
<DocScrutinizer05>
larsc: eh?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: well, if his bookkeeping process requires you to declare having worked for months already, and pay insurance and possibly some other fees for that, you should factor this into the amount you're asking for
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: the amount available to ask for is fixed
<wpwrak>
then he has the choice: 1) ask you for 6 months and pay you more or 2) ask you for a shorter interval (as short as his tax advisor is comfortable with) and pay less
<DocScrutinizer05>
we even published that to Neo900 customers
<DocScrutinizer05>
we have 25kEUR to spend
<DocScrutinizer05>
after VAT and all, there are 5k left for me
<wpwrak>
don't worry too much about what you promised to your customers. again, do the calculations. if you end up with something that simply doens't work, it doesn't matter what you promised. people make honest mistakes all the time.
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<DocScrutinizer05>
dang, it works as long as nobody insists in making his internal salary policy look good
<DocScrutinizer05>
when I write an invoice for a service, I *never* list the hours I spent
<DocScrutinizer05>
WTF does GDC need an invoice where not only number of hours and wage per hour is listed, but even when every hour got done?
<wpwrak>
well, let's assume you do what he wants. first, do you know whether you'd be obliged to register from 6 months ago or would it be okay if you register before making the invoice ?
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<wpwrak>
"when every hours" he wants an hourly breakdown ? or "xxx hours spend from xx.xx.2013-xx.xx.2014" ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, i won't assume such thing. Leads nowhere
<wpwrak>
so you're saying there is no solution
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, he wants a hourly breakdown basically
<wpwrak>
i.e., you have given up already
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, since 4 days
<wpwrak>
hourly breakdown is stupid. he doesn't need that.
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
he doesn't need hours at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm a company offering a product, not a bricklayer
<wpwrak>
it could be that he's nervous because of the "donation" state of the money, but this still seems excessive. it's like buying chips and asking the factory for a list of fabrication dates
<wpwrak>
well, down to the hour. you often do get dates, though :) ... with week resolution
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm temped to cancel Neo900, create Neo900i and get another company to build the hardware according to my specs. Not hard at all
<larsc>
it will be hard to convice people to donate again though
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<larsc>
you two should really get together and try to figure this out
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm sick meanwhile
<DocScrutinizer05>
time to do that would've been 6 weeks ago
<wpwrak>
i suppose all that communication has been by e-mail ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
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<wpwrak>
have the two of you actually ever met ?
<larsc>
the thing I always try to assume in such a situation is not to assume bad intentions on the other side but rather communication issues
<DocScrutinizer05>
once, in err 2009 or so
<wpwrak>
wow ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
see, that's maybe a reason why I get double nervous without any paper in my hands
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I announced that, 3 weeks ago
<wpwrak>
larsc: yes, i see two "difficult" people using a communication channel that's not very good for conflict resolution to discuss a complex problems where they have disagreeing positions and where both are unsure about what their options are
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep. And I am at an end with my options to solve this
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<DocScrutinizer05>
so maybe Neo900 failed due to organizational overhead being too cumbersome
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: i'd recommend you ask nikolaus to set up a meeting with you and his tax advisor. prepare your numbers. ask him to prepare his. then you can try to find a solution.
<DocScrutinizer05>
we have all numbers, they got tossed forth and back several times
<roh>
eh.. well.. it may be that he needs 'hours' and dates for tax reasons
<wpwrak>
so you already know for sure that you'd have to pay those 6 months if you registered today (with the intent of billing work done in the past) ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's for sure
<roh>
i also have to write invoices that way... what went down, when and how long. if not precisely hours atleast thjere needs to be a 'fulfilment date' and place
<roh>
'xx hours consulting project foobar - KW 23 - fooothousand euros' should be enough.
<wpwrak>
often time periods are enough, yes
<wpwrak>
sometimes you may get asked to provide a more detailed breakdown. maybe down to days, if they're really picky. doens't happen often, though
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I wouldn't even mind hours by detailled breakdown. Just i'm not willing to spread them across 6 months
<wpwrak>
of course, it's silly for those last 6 months. to find a position you can agree on, you could try to get GDC to reduce the number of months. i'm sure 6 months is just ballpark number that's not a hard limit. the tax advisor would feel less good about 5, even less about 4, and maybe he't start to sweat at 3. then you could settle at 3.
<wpwrak>
sure, because of the deferred payments
<DocScrutinizer05>
while in fact I'm working twice as much each single month
<wpwrak>
well, you could of course project it in the future but that would mean that you don't get paid everything now
<DocScrutinizer05>
who talked about *now*?
<DocScrutinizer05>
i don't mind when I'm paid
<wpwrak>
you don't need the money after all ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I worry IF I'm paid
<wpwrak>
well, if you don't care about the date, register now, then send a monthly invoice
<DocScrutinizer05>
bullshit!!!!
<wpwrak>
thought so ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
you thought?
<wpwrak>
i didn't expect you to agree with that ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
aha
<DocScrutinizer05>
then why did you suggest it?
<wpwrak>
because it would conform to what you said you'd accept
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, *I* would accept it, but Nikolaus won't
<wpwrak>
ah, why wouldn't he accept monthly invoices from now on ?
<wpwrak>
that's ionteresting
<DocScrutinizer05>
I will NOT write monthly invoices, for reasons I elaborated ad nauseum in this channel during last 60 min
<DocScrutinizer05>
I will only write ONE invoice
<wpwrak>
so you plan is to register as a freelancer, write that invoice, get the cash, then immediately unregister ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
with only ONE work package, done in ONE month
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless we continue to earn money then, e.g. by +selling* devices
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<DocScrutinizer05>
which is not what we're doing right now
<DocScrutinizer05>
thus Nikolaus will not accept me invoicing him right now for those 5k
<DocScrutinizer05>
obvious, no?
<wpwrak>
i wonder if that actually could work. it's such an obvious evasion plan that i doubt they don't have obstacles in place for it.
<DocScrutinizer05>
evasion of WHAT? friggin shit!
<DocScrutinizer05>
evasion of having a company registered that doesn't have any income?
<lekernel>
first it'll probably take months to register/unregister, with an appropriately inane amount of paperwork and maybe a couple notar/finanzamt/amtsgericht/whatever visits (I quickly abandoned that way...)
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, it won't
<wpwrak>
well, live on welfare, work in secret, then register for payday, immediately unregister again, and repeat. i'm sure others have thought of that before. and german tax law isn't particularly famous for trying to let you get away with things, that is, unless you're rich enough
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't need no Notar or amtsgericht or whatever. I give my finanzamt a call and reactivate my tax number and company
<DocScrutinizer05>
take an hour
<wpwrak>
lekernel: so how did you do it ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: you're mad?
<lekernel>
I've been paying taxes in France, which are also a mess, but less so than Germany
<wpwrak>
aah. clever :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: why don't you suggest I confess I worked for Neo900 last 30 years "hidden"?
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: i'm not talking about you here. your case is more complicated. but think of someone who only works on things he gets paid for.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm absolutely free to work on whatever Iike, and not charge for it
<DocScrutinizer05>
and next month I'm free to decide that now I charge and write an invoice
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: such a person could work like that, too: be unemployed, but work in silence, then activate the registration, collect the pay, then become unemployed again. and so on. you'd call that an evasion scheme, wouldn't you ?
<lekernel>
DocScrutinizer05, and wow, you seem to have a particularly efficient finanzamt
<DocScrutinizer05>
lekernel: my company been registered before, it's just "sleeping"
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: sure, when that person would claim to have worked 600 hours a 300EUR per hour, I for sure would suspect that something wrong there
<DocScrutinizer05>
when however that person would invoice for an 80h a 60EUR which is what that person did every single time when writing invoice (except of course when proper 160h per month been invoiced) then I probably had a hard time finding anything fishy
<wpwrak>
i think some of the difficulties may come from you trying to do something that's at least suspicious. that in turn causes issues on the GDC side because it's "weird". and if you have an unfriendly tax authority you don't want to appear as "weird".
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'M NOT DOING ANYTHING SUSPICIOUS!
<wpwrak>
and with "suspicious" i don't mean that it couldn't be explained such that it makes sense and seems legit to common sense. tax authorities don't use common sense. they have their laws and sometimes very bizarre interpretations of them.
<DocScrutinizer05>
me working for 15bucks/h for only 15h per month, now THAT would be truly suspicious
<wpwrak>
bah, stacking crates for golden delicious. that's a GOOD salary ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not willing to stake crates for Nikolaus
<lekernel>
DocScrutinizer05, don't let the bürokrats mess with neo900. worst case, expatriate yourself :)
<wpwrak>
for apple ! it's golden ! and it's delicious ! ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I'm not wuilling to lie about that for Nikolaus
<wpwrak>
yeah, escape to switzerland before they drop the "personenfreizuegigkeit". there, such things are very lean. you mention the stuff in you next annual tax declaration and that's about it.
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I'm not willing to have such a ugly shit in my own bookkeeping, just to make Nikolaus happy
<wpwrak>
you have mandatory health insurance anyway, so you won't escape that, though
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not working for 10EUR/h
<DocScrutinizer05>
never!
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: please stop assuming stuff you don't know details about
<wpwrak>
oh, i know how these things work in switzerland. i lived there and also worked as freelancer. very pleasantly easy. superbly light bureaucracy. they even let me walk off with some CHF 50k in taxes I didn't have to pay because they had changed the calculation period and i had just "fallen" into that gap
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't care about swizzerland, I'm talking about you claiming facts about my insurance status
<wpwrak>
that was still about switzerland
<wpwrak>
there, health insurance is mandatory
<larsc>
here too
<wpwrak>
(well, or at least it was in 2002)
<DocScrutinizer05>
for now I got insurance. This might change when some of your statements of last hour would get too loud
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm trying to manage a rather delicate situation that can get nasty for me
<wpwrak>
as i understand it, for now the state pays your insurance, but if you had a regular income, that would change and you'd have to pay for it
<DocScrutinizer05>
and know what? the easiest ans safest thing to do for me was: ZILCH
<wpwrak>
well yes, but it means that you can't have an income. that's called the "welfare trap"
<DocScrutinizer05>
so probably that#s what I'm going to do: zilch
<wpwrak>
the welfare trap works like this: you're fine as long as you don't work. but if you work, all you earn - and possibly even more than that - will be consumed by benefits you're then no longer entitled to
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<wpwrak>
so to "get out of welfare", you need to make a certain minimum income before it's actually worth the effort
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm free to do with my spare time whatever I want. You suggesting I do suspicious stuff and spread my income across times where I claim I don't have any might get me into severe trouble
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I'm not willing to deal with this trouble, neither from you nor from Nikolaus for sake of his beauty tax book keeping
<wpwrak>
i'm not suggesting that. i'm suggesting to try and find a way to "regularize" your situation. i.e., make what you get a proper income, with all the consequences that entails. of course, this also means, as i've described, that it can't be arbitrarily low.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, sure. Will you pay for that?
<wpwrak>
you already have my share in the pool. i see nothing wrong with a good part of that going into your pocket.
<DocScrutinizer05>
or do you suggest I go rogue and abuse the down payments users did on Neo900?
<larsc>
cocaine!
<roh>
isnt the usual concept, 'gimme all that money' and run?
<roh>
ah.. no.. that was investment banking
<roh>
sorry for the confusion ;)
<wpwrak>
well, you consider them down payments, but they're called donations and GDC has been treating them as such. might as well use them in that sense :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
>>Your donation will also serve as a rebate for a finished device.<<
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<wpwrak>
(of course, i always said that trying to treat them as downpayments wasn't such a good idea. now you see why. alas, budget overruns are all too common ...)
<roh>
maybe you guys should have figured out the tax issues beforehand
<DocScrutinizer05>
what tax issues?
<roh>
or whatever your confusion iss all about
<DocScrutinizer05>
confusion?
<roh>
well.. maybe i should rather call it 'complications'
<wpwrak>
roh: i'd say they basically "forgot" to include a suitable compensation for joerg who has to work full-time on this
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, and that wouldn't have worked to start with
<DocScrutinizer05>
and never been intended
<roh>
wpwrak: i dont think somebody forgot. that sounds much too 'accidental' ;)
<wpwrak>
roh: then joerg came up with a plan where he could get by on very little money, but it requires probing the limits of the rules. and GDC are not entirely comfortable with that.
<DocScrutinizer05>
there IS NO DAMN PROBING OF ANY LIMITS!!!
<roh>
any why doesnt GDC hire joerg as an employee then? i mean.. if the money is there, then there IS a way. if one wants it to work.
<DocScrutinizer05>
there IS NO MONEy FOR THAT
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: again, the fact that you're not doing anything illegal doesn't mean that an unfriendly tax auditor wouldn't try to screw you anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
bullshit
<roh>
writing invoices or hiring somebody is no magic. and working without money doesnt work either. thats nothing new.
<wpwrak>
roh: as i said, they under-budgeted for joerg's work
<DocScrutinizer05>
they try to screw me every single day of my life. So what?
<wpwrak>
;-)
<roh>
the tax guys are ok. just dont try to screw them. they dont like that at all. be honest and they can be fair too.
<roh>
atleast compared to evil customers and banks and stuff.
<DocScrutinizer05>
unless some more of such nonsense staements from your side and they finally make it to some bored tax officer, I don't think an invoice for 80h at 50EUR will get me into ANY trouble
<lekernel>
still, they should rather focus on taxing google than neo900
<roh>
DocScrutinizer05: why should it? i dont get that.
<wpwrak>
roh: do you know of any free (gratis) place that could also provide advice in this issue ? handelskammer or such ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: btw how's you child porn collection?
<roh>
wpwrak: what tax questions?
<DocScrutinizer05>
roh: ask wpwrak
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: it's great. those little girls have all grown to be the beautiful women, as one can see ;-)
<roh>
DocScrutinizer05: the only thing one could want on such an invoice would be 'which month' or 'weeks' that work was done. the rest doesnt interrest tax guys.
<DocScrutinizer05>
perfectly fine with me
<DocScrutinizer05>
done in may 2014
<DocScrutinizer05>
2nd and 3rd week
<DocScrutinizer05>
but GDC doesn't like that
<wpwrak>
roh: well, the issue is: they have only a limited amount of money. joerg has done "pro bono" work for a while. now he needs money. they want to pay him with that limited amount. they (GDC) fear if they just send 5k over, that would ring alarm bells.
<roh>
total bullshit
<DocScrutinizer05>
no, that's again incorrect
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't need any money *now*
<roh>
at 5k they dont even flinch. just keep your papers in order. nothing uncommon at all.
<wpwrak>
roh: joerg wants to basically interrupt his unemployment for a few days, collect the money, then become unemployed again. this in turn will look suspicious. there may also be other obstacles he isn't aware of yet.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I told you before - shall I quote?
<DocScrutinizer05>
again icorrect? shall I quote?
<wpwrak>
so when do you need the money ?
<roh>
wpwrak: that doesnt work at all. you basically need to be broke to apply (depends on some more factors) but in the end it says that 'you need to tap your own reserves first' and then you can apply.
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2014-02-17 14:30:45] <DocScrutinizer05> unless we continue to earn money then, e.g. by +selling* devices
<wpwrak>
roh: well, i suppose some unemployment benefits kick in a little quicker. but yes, in the big picture, it's that
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: okay, so make a contract that you'll get paid in the future. let's say for intellectual properly rights.
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: please don't think I'm an idiot trying to find clever ways to cheat but never having looked into the whole matter
<DocScrutinizer05>
I laready suggested this
<DocScrutinizer05>
GDC rejected
<roh>
wpwrak: they put the clamps on pretty hard the last few years, so i find it much easier and less work to work a bit than to do all the paperwork to stay unemployed and NOT hungry. thats why i work, not the money.
<wpwrak>
with what explanation ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry I constantly fail to remember the explanations, they are like 50 lines long and pretty weird
<wpwrak>
roh: mission accomplished (for them) ;-)
<roh>
wpwrak: when it comes to me, maybe... we'll see how that works our when i am old. its not that i could put anything away right now.
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: they could also contract you also as, say, production consultant. again, you'd then only start working when production begins
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm tired of suggesting stuff
<wpwrak>
roh: longevity is overrated anyway ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I suggested stuff for 10 weeks now
<DocScrutinizer05>
such contract could even get signed right away
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: :-) well, i think you guys should really meet face to face. where's little point in you sending detailed plans, then them sending back elaborate rejections, and on and on
<DocScrutinizer05>
no matter when production starts
<DocScrutinizer05>
exactly, no point in that any longer
<wpwrak>
yes, contract ... or letter of understanding, since it's still with uncertain dates
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: i checked the .pdf for the kicad modules from the anelok kicad libraries but can't find CR2032 or am i missing something ?
<wpwrak>
so, why not ask nikolaus to grab his tax advisor and you meet for some cold beers and discuss the situation ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
a) tax advisors have no time for beers, b) he's living in Munich, I'm in Nuernberg
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's not like Nikolaus employs that tax advisor
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: yes ;-) there's a number of them in there ... well, only two at the moment, should include more. BAT-LP2032SM, BAT-BLP2032SM
<wpwrak>
a) well, the tax advisor doesn't have to drink ;-)
<wpwrak>
c) yeah :-(
<DocScrutinizer05>
55EUR? maybe, but I don't see me paying any ct more for the project
<lekernel>
GDC should be able to pay you train tickets
<wpwrak>
b) nuernberg - muenchen, RE, 01:51 (gives you some time to prepare your plan, or to take relaxing nap), return trip, EUR 35.40. wow, now that's really easy :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I already payd 1000s from my own pocket
<lekernel>
DB will give them the paperwork they need for their accounting
<DocScrutinizer05>
lekernel: GDC should be able to pay 12EUR/month for a server at hetzner, too?
<wpwrak>
there definitely is a problem with their spending policy
<DocScrutinizer05>
guess who paid Sebastian (dos1) for his expense
<lekernel>
and those tickets can be reasonably declared to be a business-related expense
<wpwrak>
it's called "pennywise smark, poundwise foolish". avoid spending a few EUR even if you put the whole project at risk. that doesn't make sense.
<wpwrak>
#s/smark/smart/
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: i can see the file modules/lp2032sm.fpd ..but in terms of the component in the schematics normally what do you use for the symbol ? is it normal power +5v ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
GDC so far avoided ANY sign of support for the support for Neo900 project from anybody else
<lekernel>
some variant of Parkinson's law of triviality ;)
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: i'd just use a two-pin connector, e.g., CONN_2
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: feel free to draw and submit a battery symbol, though :)
<larsc>
I'm in Nuernberg next week, I can pick you up and drop you off in front of Dr. Nics office an the way back ;)
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: let's see if i can come up something interesting for the battery symbol :)
<wpwrak>
larsc: physically dragging him there may be the only way to make this work ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
not even an email with some statement that would be provable later on
<DocScrutinizer05>
larsc: thanks but I don't see that getting anywhere
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: you mean "thank you for all the hours you graciously donated to the project" ? :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I mean something you could call him out for later on
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: i think you keep on hitting the same problem: you a) don't want any assets that would change your tax status, but you b) want assets that ensure future compensation. maybe they could issue some sort of shares or IOUs, but that may be another can of worms and they may still get you into trouble with taxes (e.g., they could demand you sell them or hand them over)
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, initially I thought I had some pdf attachment that stated "joerg: 5k" but given how fast things change back and forth with UG and everything, this is just as worthless
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: again incorrect
<wpwrak>
if you want to maintain that sort of situation, a "gentleman's agreement" is probably all you can hope for. but that needs trust. at the moment, it seems neither of you trusts the other. one way to build trust is to meet people. that why i'm suggesting a personal meeting.
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: having a blonde moment...how do i generate from fpd to mod file ?
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: can see lp2032sm.fpd .. assume that i need to execute something to generate the mod file correct ?
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: in the GUI, File > Write KiCad
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: and when I at least could get a "gentlemen agreement" that actually has some real agreement in it, I'd be probably fine
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: run fped ?
<wpwrak>
without gui: fped -k input.fpd output.mod
<wpwrak>
yes, running fped
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: please note that my suggestion to write an invoice for 80h done in may got rejected
<wpwrak>
DocScrutinizer05: yeah, you need to agree on what you'll get first. then how to implement that.
<wpwrak>
that's why i'm saying the tax advisor has to be on the table. that way, you can go though things quickly and you can ask for explanations when things don't seem to make sense
<DocScrutinizer05>
rejected since "GDC needs an invoice3 with hours listed and they need to be spread across several months"
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<wpwrak>
this will help all of you to develop a better understanding of each side's requirements and possibilities
<DocScrutinizer05>
sorry, it doesn't help me to understand *why* GDC needs an invoice with hours liszed for dec jan feb mar apr may
<wpwrak>
since you don't want the money now, that whole story arc seems irrelevant anyway
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah sure
<nicksydney>
thought i can design something small like 2cm x 2cm but apparently the battery itself is BIG
<wpwrak>
just be sure you really don't want/need anything before production
<DocScrutinizer05>
I can go on just doing nothing
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<wpwrak>
nicksydney: 20 mm in diameter :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
and hoping for a solution to all that mess coming up magivcally later on while ven now I can't write an invoice for nov dec 2013
<wpwrak>
in psychology, this is called "denial". avoid dealing with a problem by pretending it doesn't exist.
<DocScrutinizer05>
for sure we will find a better solution when I wait another 3 months making stuff clear
<nicksydney>
wpwrak: yeah it's 20mm in diameter....might need to rethink again
<wpwrak>
of course, if an inexistent problem almost drives you out of the project, then i'd say there is a real problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, inexistent problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure
<wpwrak>
i think you should meet to discuss all this. make sure you agree to a roadmap and a way to compensate you for your work.
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, thanks. you said that before
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<DocScrutinizer05>
when the problem is inexistent, then why should we meet at all?
<wpwrak>
if you drag this out, it will be only more frustrating when the next issue hits
<DocScrutinizer05>
you're just convincing me to make suure there will not be any more problems that might hit
<wpwrak>
oh, and wasn't what started all this the issue that GDC couldn't buy things for you ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
couldn't?
<wpwrak>
well, wouldn't
<wpwrak>
maybe they could and should maybe they couldn't and shouldn't maybe they could but shouldn't maybe they couldn't but should. why knows :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe I need another 4 days off before I continue pondering how to cancel the project
<wpwrak>
the ability to get materials to you is crucial. i mean, if they can't get you case samples, they couldn't send you prototypes either. so this is clearly something that needs solving.
<wpwrak>
so use these four days for a meeting. maybe you'll save yourself the headache of thinking of a way to cancel it
<DocScrutinizer05>
no meeting
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm more fed up with all this than I been 2h ago
<wpwrak>
yes, that's a normal effect discussing things here has on you
<wpwrak>
but sometimes an idea or two stick. so there's hope :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
the only idea that sticks is that obviously people have a strange joy from suspecting I'm doing rogue stuff while evidently I don't
<DocScrutinizer05>
o/
<wpwrak>
it's so much more fun to picture you as a criminal mastermind ;-)
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: old news. and not only walmart.
<wpwrak>
i think that one will be bounced around in justice for a long time.
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<whitequark>
nicksydney: meh, whtever, bitcoin is going up and down all the time.
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<whitequark>
on btc-e it's already up back to 624. pre-vulnerability-and-russian-regulations level
<whitequark>
wow, DocScrutinizer05 is really pissed off above
<wpwrak>
yeah, not good :(
* whitequark
is still reading backlog
<wpwrak>
hmm. ghostly hardware bugs we chase #6167: a signal that magically doens't get asserted when in the test fixture even though there is a perfectly good contact. turns out the very last bit of the connection (the cable on UBB) was loose and only made contact when under pressure or when bent just the right way. grmbl.
<whitequark>
yeah, pretty sad...
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<nicksydney>
so DocScrutinizer05 is piss off does this mean that the neo900 project is off ?
<wpwrak>
nicksydney: dunno. i certainly hope they can find a way to continue. but there's clearly a communication disconnect. it's rather ironic that the two main people in this disconnect basically live next door to each other, yet seem light years apart.