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<wpwrak>
hmm, i'm slowly getting the impression that P&E are bastards. it seems that their firmware for the FRDM-KL25Z doesn't support programming the KL26 even though it's virtually identical to the KL25
<wpwrak>
at least i've made it all the way to the AHB on the KL26 by now without encountering any obstacles ...
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<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
ok, found FRDM-KL25Z but what's P&E?
<wpwrak>
they're the one who make the firmware this critter ships with
<wpwrak>
oneS
<wpwrak>
i use the FRDM-KL25Z for flash programming of anelok. but when switching from kl25 to kl26, it seems that i'll either have to get an FRDM-KL26Z, which may now be difficult, of make my own solution
<wpwrak>
well, i got as far as being able to reliably read the AHB. that's a start. there's more needed for being able to program the flash, but i think what i've covered so far was the worst part
<DocScrutinizer05>
AHB?
<wpwrak>
one of the ARM buses (one of the fast ones, kinda "CPU bus")
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<DocScrutinizer05>
aaah, yes. with context it's easy
<DocScrutinizer05>
didn't know you explicitly read AHB, I always thought that's part of how ARM controls its internals without "user" even getting to know about
<DocScrutinizer05>
like CPU talking to e.g. UART via AHB, but that's happening invisibly when you access the registers of UART
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: it's exactly like that
<wpwrak>
normally you don't necessarily see which bus things are on (though it appears in some places, e.g., clock gating), but here it's a debug port that's specifically on AHB (and has "AHB" in all the identifiers as well)
<whitequark>
but debug interfaces, which AIUI wpwrak uses, allow you to poke it directly
<whitequark>
oh
<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm yeah. ETM for example you actaully need to understand about that stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
and stuff like clock gating etc is exactly why I favor maemo over genuine debian for OMAP3 devices like Neo900
<DocScrutinizer05>
the upstream stuff never is thoroughly tested for proper power management
<DocScrutinizer05>
Nokia's maemo kernel devels didn't invent closed proprietary stuff for fun and to annoy FOSS community, they added or modified FOSS kernel stuff to handle things like shutting down clocks or set suspend timeout for UARTS and the like, and some of that stuff didn't make it to upstream for various (usually stupid) reasons. that however doesn't mean that a system on a OMAP3 platform is better off without those non-mainline patches
<wpwrak>
non-mainline does not imply closed. there's a lot of kernel code out there that isn't in mainline for one reason or another but that it quite open
<DocScrutinizer05>
and I wish FPTF devels like freemangordon would get that
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: yes, exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
the problem is that same considerations apply to userland aka middleware and even to apps as well, and those often are not FOSS for maemo
<wpwrak>
let's hope people are motivated to change that (by replacing closed junk). else, you have a growing problem on your hands ...
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, not me exactly
<DocScrutinizer05>
but e.g. mer and Qt-mobility often demonstrated a scaring ignorance about such aspects of an embedded system, when e.g. developing/specifying sensorframework
<DocScrutinizer05>
the whole basic concept been flawed, basing mostly on definition of poll intervals
<DocScrutinizer05>
you hardly can turn a app triggered API into a event driven API
<DocScrutinizer05>
since your API will miss the needed functionality to specify and handle events in the only correct way
<whitequark>
ugh :(
<DocScrutinizer05>
and the general mood about this been "let's deal with power management and all that stuff later. first we need to make sure it works"
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: qt-mobility iirc doesn't depend on polling. just the default handlers it has poll sensors
<whitequark>
you can easily (in like 200 loc) write evented ones
<DocScrutinizer05>
qt-modility at large maybe not. qt-m with sensorfw - as of maybe 2 years ago - yes, they did
<DocScrutinizer05>
and no aurprise since they didn't even get the catch that kernel API been flawed for e.g. the lis302 accelerometer
<whitequark>
can't comment on that, I used to work with it when it still was qt embedded
<whitequark>
don't think they made the API *worse*
<DocScrutinizer05>
the mainline lis302 kernel driver is basically only for joysticks
<DocScrutinizer05>
and Carsten Munk (mer developer, now sailfish) answered all my concerns with "it's mainline/upstream, and we won't change that"
<DocScrutinizer05>
so lis302 kernel driver only supports polling --> sensorfw defines an API for accelerometer sensor that's based on the concept of polling
<DocScrutinizer05>
--> qt-m sensors are basically polling
<whitequark>
ok, this is dumb
<DocScrutinizer05>
when I would design such a system, I'd forbid polling and whoever wants to poll nevertheless needs to implement it on app level
<DocScrutinizer05>
what they did was the opposite, they implemented polling on every single layer: in kernel driver, in sensorfw, and in qtm sensor plugins
<DocScrutinizer05>
kernel polls chip at 100Hz, sensorfw polls kernel API at 25Hz, and finally app developer decides the poll frequency for app to sensorfw, iirc
<whitequark>
100Hz!!
<whitequark>
that must absolutely kill battery life
<DocScrutinizer05>
yes, it does
<whitequark>
wtf
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, 100Hz is the lower of two freq for polling mode where lis302 drives the IRQ line for every new data it provides
<DocScrutinizer05>
iirc
<DocScrutinizer05>
the higher freq was 400Hz
<DocScrutinizer05>
joystick mode
<DocScrutinizer05>
the only mode the lis302 upstream kernel driver supports
<DocScrutinizer05>
both Nokia and OM had their own lis302 kernel driver implementations that were magnitudes smarter than the mainline one
<DocScrutinizer05>
but when you do system architecture for a new platform and your 1st commandment is "we use mainline. ALWAYS", then you end up with API definitions that never heard about IRQ/event driven concept
<DocScrutinizer05>
I don't know of a single successful embedded linux device that is using 100% mainline kernel
<DocScrutinizer05>
not even OE kernel
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<DocScrutinizer05>
why is qi-bot +o? is there anything it does for channel maintenance?
<larsc>
kicks people who ask to many questions
<DocScrutinizer05>
hahaha
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, the simple answer is:because qi-bot is +O
<DocScrutinizer05>
but who decided qi-bot needs +O in access list. particularly since +O is deprecated by freenode
<DocScrutinizer05>
and why?
<whitequark>
*crickets*
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<DocScrutinizer05>
hmm, ding leaves me wondering what "crickets" might mean here
<DocScrutinizer05>
chirping insects? birds? something even different?
<larsc>
the sound that crickets make
<DocScrutinizer05>
or playing a game with a ball and driver
<larsc>
no, you know when there is a long silence you start hearing the crickets chirping in the background
<DocScrutinizer05>
aaah
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, I couuld do a -O on qi-bot
<DocScrutinizer05>
would make me feel less threatened by the machines
<DocScrutinizer05>
I thought somebody could provide a good reason why qi-bot is permamnently opped.
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess it's been an administration oopsie then, and i'll remove +O from qi-bot's access list record, to fix the issue. If later on somebody find a good reason why the bot needs +o nevertheless, any chanop with access list permissions can add the +O again
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, or not.
<DocScrutinizer05>
[2014-02-10 10:40:11] [Notice] -ChanServ- You are not allowed to set -O on qi-bot in #qi-hardware.
<ChanServ>
DocScrutinizer05 (jOERG_rw) set flags +O on jOERG_rw.
<ChanServ>
DocScrutinizer05 (jOERG_rw) set flags -O on jOERG_rw.
<DocScrutinizer05>
damn 2manpage" about accesslist management is pretty incorrect or at least fuzzy. It says a chanop on access list may set all the flasg on other access list records that the chanops owns as well. I have +f (for access list modification) and +o which implies +O
<DocScrutinizer05>
I've even set my own record to +O but still can't set -O on qi-bot
<DocScrutinizer05>
ohmy
<DocScrutinizer05>
damn
<larsc>
the bot is more mighty than you are
<larsc>
blessed by wolfspra1l himself
<DocScrutinizer05>
iirc wolfspra1l had no clear idea about access lists and chanop
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's how I came to the burden of having +o in this channel
<DocScrutinizer05>
iirc
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<DocScrutinizer05>
well, whoever has access to that eggdrop, please consider make him say /msg chanserv flags #qi-hardware qi-bot -O
<DocScrutinizer05>
please don't mistype that as -o !
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<DocScrutinizer05>
(though even that was recoverable since the bot still is +F)
<DocScrutinizer05>
(which is probably the reason why chanserv denies me changing +O flag for qi-bot)
<DocScrutinizer05>
what I probably can do is:
<DocScrutinizer05>
but that won't last
<DocScrutinizer05>
a common nice practice is to:
<DocScrutinizer05>
to mark the bot as approved by chan-owners
<DocScrutinizer05>
on access list that would be flag +V
<nicksydney>
really like this blog post http://pandoralive.info/?p=2808 .. gives an insight of how difficult it is to find SoC :)...never knew it's going to be this hard
<DocScrutinizer05>
and even when you're there and have your SoC, you're in for the next joy: Silicon Errors, i.e. unpleasant errant behaviour of the chip thatnks to bugs in the mask and design
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you're very lucky the SiErr gets documented by the chip manufactuer and even has a workaround ideally in software. When you're less lucky your project needs a massive redesign or fails completely. When you're punished with the usual lack of luck, you finf out about the SiErr when you've built and sold a few 100 k of devices
<DocScrutinizer05>
find* out
<DocScrutinizer05>
I know of such SiErr in OMAP4
<DocScrutinizer05>
which seem to not even gotten publicly disclosed, and are conveniently tagged as "WONTFIX in OMAP4" by TI
<DocScrutinizer05>
and sw workaround is difficult or even impossible
* DocScrutinizer05
idly wonders if Neo900 already qualifies as steampunk
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: can you tell more about those SiErrs?
<DocScrutinizer05>
well, we seen the HSI wakeup failing under certain conditions
<DocScrutinizer05>
it just drops off the queue or sth
<whitequark>
HSI = ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
since HSI protocol doesn't include any recover/repeat from such pending data transfer that doesn't get answered by the destination interface, our modem basically got stuck when talking to the TI Blazer
<DocScrutinizer05>
MIPI HSI
<whitequark>
ah, modem
<whitequark>
yeah, that sucks.
<DocScrutinizer05>
mega!
<DocScrutinizer05>
evetually the modem blew chunks when FIFOs bursted from overflow
<DocScrutinizer05>
then the customers blamed us for a bug that actually been in OMAP4 and not in NovaThor or the firmware
<DocScrutinizer05>
TI shipped a patched HSI linux driver, that allowed recovering from such lockup. but only when the modem actively did retry, which is not a part of the MIPI HSI specs
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<DocScrutinizer05>
so, we were able to find a sw workaround, but you can't do that when you don't control e.g. the modem that's conected to the OMAP4 HSI interface
<DocScrutinizer05>
for sure we'd have a hard time talking Cinterion into any such patch for their P*S8 modem
<DocScrutinizer05>
(though those modems don't even have HSI interface)
<DocScrutinizer05>
(sth that still gives me headache - I'm not exactly convinced about USB being a good inter-chip bus for that purpose)
<DocScrutinizer05>
anyway since the bug been suspected somewhere in IRQ/WAKE controller, it wouldn't be limited to HSI at all
<DocScrutinizer05>
fun detail: when you try to debug such stuff and attach a Lauterbach to ETM/ETB, the whole ARM system usually doesn't enter sleep state ever
<DocScrutinizer05>
in the end we needed one of the customers to physically attach a probe to the HSI "IRQ" line (of course the name is different on HSI interface) which definitely wasn't easy to accomplish, to learn that the level of the signal was OK but the OMAP4 didn't act as supposed
<DocScrutinizer05>
damn, sorry for my confusing use of "we" - it's meant for my last employer where I developed modem chips, except 6 lines up where "we" means Neo900 group when I talk about Cinterion not doing patches in their modems for us
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: (sleep) even low-end stm32l has a secialregister
<whitequark>
special register*
<whitequark>
fucking asus and their fukking keyboar.d itsedaagain
<whitequark>
wtf
<DocScrutinizer05>
lol
<DocScrutinizer05>
my siemens laptop kbd recovered from lockups by suspend to disk ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
but sometimes the suspend to disk itself failed, when the amount of RAM to save was too large
<DocScrutinizer05>
this is not silly alu tape with conductive glue, this claims to connect upside sticky surface with downside sticky surface strictly vertically, thus making a nice alternative for multi-pin connectors
<DocScrutinizer05>
contact resistivity: 0.3 Ohm. fine
<DocScrutinizer05>
isolation resistivity in the meg-ohms
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's the ultimate solution for a wide range of problems
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: still alive?
<DocScrutinizer05>
wpwrak: you probably even could glue BGA chips to your PCB with that Z-axis-conductive sticky tape
<DocScrutinizer05>
umm, at least when pitch is >=0.5mm
<DocScrutinizer05>
or 0.4 actually?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
>>3MTM Electrically Conductive Adhesive Transfer Tape 9703 is ideal for interconnection of flexible circuits with other flexible circuits (flex), rigid printed circuit boards (PCB) or LCD screens. Applications include polyester flex circuit splicing, keyboard manufacturing, LCD assembly and many others. Tape 9703 is also ideal for EMI/RFI shield and gasket attachment applications. Applications include EMI shields for displays and
<DocScrutinizer05>
gasket attachment to EMI/RFI cabinets and enclosures.<<
<DocScrutinizer05>
it's not perfect but pretty nice. i've been searching for something like this since maybe 20 years
<DocScrutinizer05>
and 3M has ~10 other similar Z-axis tapes with slightly different specs
<DocScrutinizer05>
not size, but type of tape
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm quite excited about his
<whitequark>
3M makes a lot of neat things
<whitequark>
perhaps you could discover some interesting ones just by browsing their catalog page by page
<whitequark>
maybe ORDER BY price DESC :)
<DocScrutinizer05>
in the 80s I had a HP34(?) calculator which I disassembled, and they used a very unique technique consisting of a flex PCB on foam, and the feet of the DIL chipts were bent forming U contacts that got pressed on that PCB
<whitequark>
flex PCB?
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, 3M are really awesome
<DocScrutinizer05>
sure, never seen flex PCB?
<DocScrutinizer05>
even GTA02 had one, for WLAN
<whitequark>
well, I've seen flex PCB: copper on polyimide polymer
<DocScrutinizer05>
or was it BT?
<whitequark>
like those flex cables in notebooks
<whitequark>
a darkish brown color
<whitequark>
but why put it in a calculator? regular pcb would be just fine there
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep, exactly that stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
they used flex to get some elastic force against the DIL feet
<DocScrutinizer05>
the DIL chips sat in a plastic frame and got pressed against the FPC which itself sat on a PU foam
<DocScrutinizer05>
no soldering
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's when I started thinking about stuff like that Z-axis sticky tape
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: why can't they just solder it?
<DocScrutinizer05>
maybe they thought it's easier this way
<DocScrutinizer05>
ooh, and doublesided through-hole is a tad... annoying to design
<whitequark>
is it?
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<DocScrutinizer05>
derr yes, when your bottom side is filled with contacts for kbd clickdisks
<DocScrutinizer05>
so you'd not only need a PCB to solder your DIL chips to, you also need a 2nd PCB to build your kbd from, and then you need a connector between the two
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<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: how do you like the paperduino?
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: seen it already
<whitequark>
it's cool for learning I think
<whitequark>
has a "wow" factor
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, and a few nice ideas like that z-axis tape
<DocScrutinizer05>
or the plotting of PCB with a conductive pen
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<DocScrutinizer05>
I think you could build a complete circuit without soldering in less than half an hour
<DocScrutinizer05>
your CNC would make for a nice plotter
<DocScrutinizer05>
;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
you even could drill holes for thru hole components and then use copper rivets to create via as well as mechanically rigid solder posts
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: or I could build a semi-automated machine which would do developing, etching and electroplating for me
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe, how about multilayer created from sticky foil and an occasional Z-axis patch for vias, and the traces plotted with that pen. then stick on next foil layer
<whitequark>
just had that insane idea
<whitequark>
really, the only things I would really need to do manually is moving PCB from/to machines and aligning the photomask
<whitequark>
no kill like overkill :p
<DocScrutinizer05>
what would you use for electroplating?
<whitequark>
I want to try that process I linked you yesterday
<whitequark>
using thermal decomposition of copper hyposulphite (iirc) to deposit copper nanoparticles on exposed areas
<whitequark>
then using that as a prime layer for depositing more copper using regular CuSO4 bath
<DocScrutinizer05>
that's only half of the job
<DocScrutinizer05>
aah CuSO4
<whitequark>
what else would I use?
<DocScrutinizer05>
dunno, NFC about galvanics
<whitequark>
well, there's probably something. but CuSO4 is very simple and reliable
<wpwrak>
says he who wouldn't touch HCl ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
I just know it's usually extremely toxic and parcels with a galvanics lab on them are like "the zone"
<whitequark>
wpwrak: what's up with CuSO4? it's non-corrosive and not really toxic unless you actively ingest large quantities
<DocScrutinizer05>
and even then... I seem to recall it's used for inducing vomiting
<whitequark>
apparently it's only toxic to fish
<whitequark>
ooooh I remember, in high school some dude told me he tasted CuSO4
<whitequark>
says it was foul and metallic (duh)
<whitequark>
*said
<whitequark>
LD50: 8-30g
<whitequark>
on the same order as goddamn table salt
<DocScrutinizer05>
hehe
<DocScrutinizer05>
LD50 of water is even more ;-)
<DocScrutinizer05>
when you don't inhale it
<DocScrutinizer05>
~5..15L
<whitequark>
15L is definitely not LD50
<DocScrutinizer05>
LD100?
<whitequark>
no such thing
<whitequark>
well, it would not be very useful, that is
<whitequark>
90g/kg apparently, so... 7L for a grown man
<whitequark>
which is exactly what I recall
<DocScrutinizer05>
quite possible
<DocScrutinizer05>
you could probably take the antidot: your 8g NaCl
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess should be more
<whitequark>
fwiw: NaCl LD50 is 3g/kg so 240g for a grown man
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, that's also more like what I'd expect is needed to turn 7L water into isotonic beverage
<DocScrutinizer05>
aka "detoxifying" it
<whitequark>
hm... isotonic is 0.9% NaCl
<whitequark>
and that is 0.33%
<DocScrutinizer05>
that be 60g then
<DocScrutinizer05>
for 7L
<whitequark>
oops, missed a zero... that's 3.3% :)
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<whitequark>
you're right
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<DocScrutinizer05>
btw forget about saltless diet for lowering blood pressure. It's a hoax just like margarine and cholesterol
<DocScrutinizer05>
and salad and spinach
<whitequark>
yeah, a healthy human regulates all electrolytes with impressive precision
<whitequark>
it really only matters to those with impaired renal function
<DocScrutinizer05>
it seems like 95% of what health care at large is telling us to do is actually rather detrimental to our health
<whitequark>
"95% of health care at large" = "5% of health care, which wants to sell shit to you"
<DocScrutinizer05>
yup
<DocScrutinizer05>
though i wonder who wants to sell which shit when suggesting to use less salt
<DocScrutinizer05>
for poison like NutriSweet it's obvious
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<whitequark>
maybe it's a bit longer chain here. brainwash people with supposed health benefits => form a social group => exploit social group for great profit
<DocScrutinizer05>
:nod:
<whitequark>
ha, talking about diets, there's some dick of a manufacturer who makes gummy bears with artifical sweetener aka sugar replacement
<whitequark>
sells them in 1-2kg packages
<whitequark>
problem is, that artifical sweetener is a really good laxative. if you eat >10 bears (and they're tiny), you better prepare for explosive diarrhea
<DocScrutinizer05>
haha
<whitequark>
and that is not an exaggeration
<DocScrutinizer05>
atrifical sweeteners are problematic in many ways
<DocScrutinizer05>
and one of the most significant effects is: increased appetite and constant hunger, resulting it people getting fat from low-shugar diet
<wpwrak>
(salt) well, if your kidneys are busy 'round the clock removing excessive salt you can pretty much count on them developing problems :)
<whitequark>
wpwrak: there's no medical data indicating so
<whitequark>
in fact, kidneys are "busy 'round the clock" regardless of what you do with your body
<whitequark>
because kidney works like this: 1) push everything smaller than ~1kDa to urine 2) reabsorb useful stuff
<DocScrutinizer05>
yep
<wpwrak>
so why do diabetics develop kidney problems ?
<whitequark>
same reason they develop sores on skin, have heart attacks, poorly regenerate and everything else
<DocScrutinizer05>
same reason the develop problems with their eyes, or injured legs
<whitequark>
it's a systemic illness
<DocScrutinizer05>
I guess
<whitequark>
it wrecks the whole body pretty hard
<DocScrutinizer05>
yeah, increased sugar level in blood can do much damage
<whitequark>
take your SoC and plug it into an unregulated power supply with ripple = half of Voutput
<wpwrak>
so you're saying sugar is more damaging to kidneys than salt ?
<whitequark>
wpwrak: it's not sugar. it's the fact that cells' main energy source is improperly regulated
<wpwrak>
(sugar vs. salt) the "works like this" model suggests it should be pretty much the same ...
<wpwrak>
you mean ATP ?
<DocScrutinizer05>
sugar even used to obliterate varicose vains
<whitequark>
how do you think the cell gets ATP?
<wpwrak>
that would have been my next rethorical question ;-)
<whitequark>
you don't have any ATP in your blood, you have glucose
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<wpwrak>
i use "sugar" synonymous to "glucose" here
<whitequark>
so cells convert glucose to ATP. but when there's no insulin, they can't, and that energy starvation is harmful to them
<wpwrak>
(since we're talking about the bloodstream, not the digestive process)
<wpwrak>
oh, but there is insulin
<whitequark>
it depends on type of diabetes. type I means there's no insulin. type II means cells aren't sensitive to insulin
<DocScrutinizer05>
depends on type of diabetes, no?
<whitequark>
end result to most cells is the same, no energy
<wpwrak>
high blood sugar levels themselves are an issue. insulin is usually present. e.g., in type II isn't often there anyway, in type I (and some type II) is gets added. but there are two categories: fast and slow-acting. the slow-acting one stays around for almost 24 h
<wpwrak>
whitequark: untreated type I diabetics don't develop long-term complications. they die long before that. long-term complications are specifically a result of a treatment that does allow type I diabetics to survive for more than a few months/weeks/days
* DocScrutinizer05
goes get some salty snacks
<whitequark>
sure. long-term complications are the result of still poor regulation of glucose uptake
<whitequark>
because injections or even insulin pump cannot quite regulate it with the same precision
<whitequark>
unsurprisingly, since they're both essentially open loop
<wpwrak>
well, in the end, insuling-glucose mismatch and extreme glucose levels are strongly correlated because one rarely happens without the other (it's possible though, but normally not a frequent event)
<whitequark>
sure. your point is?
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<wpwrak>
that observing the two doesn't allow to determine the nature of the causal relationship (beyond suggesting that one exists)
<whitequark>
uh... you sure aren't saying that everything about diabetes is a lie?
<whitequark>
I mean, the causal relationship is rather well established with a heap of other facts
<larsc>
can you build a closed loop insulin pump?
<whitequark>
larsc: absolutely
<whitequark>
and I believe we'll see them soon, it's a long time coming
<larsc>
sounds like a nice idea for a startup, if it doesn't exist yet
<larsc>
although getting approval for use in humans can be hard to get, I guess
<whitequark>
I'm sure such an obvious idea is being pursued already for years
<larsc>
You'd think so
<whitequark>
shit just takes ages for approve... I heard 40 years is current time to market for really innovative tech
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<larsc>
google autocomplete for "closed loop ins" is "...ulin pump"
<CYB3R>
new KiCAD board format is very strange. I just got this: 1 file changed, 4524 insertions(+), 41743 deletions(-)
<Ornotermes>
hmm... looks like i have a too old version
<whitequark>
hey wpwrak, do you use something for static electricity?
<whitequark>
my old chair broke and the new one causes some crazy buildup, I stand up once and BOOM
<DocScrutinizer05>
van der Graaf?
<whitequark>
DocScrutinizer05: I meant for reducing, but I'm not surprised you understood it the other way round :p
<whitequark>
I know there are bracelets for that, but where to attach them?
<larsc>
to your spine
<larsc>
or do you mean the other end?
<whitequark>
:]
<whitequark>
larsc: you would make a great GLaDOS
<whitequark>
actually, you all guys would :D
<larsc>
we have these funny anti static things you put over your shoes, so they don't isolate you from the floor
<larsc>
the other anti static stuff is typically connected to ground
<Ornotermes>
whitequark: i have a similar problem whan the weather is dry, and it make my computer drop the connection to my 3d-printer. Some times i spray it with water to prevent static build up
<larsc>
as in ground from you ac connector
<larsc>
in our office I sometimes feel like one of pavlov's dogs
<whitequark>
larsc: but my floor is linoleum
<whitequark>
bet it makes a nice dielectric
<larsc>
whitequark: there are special anti-static mats that you can put under your desk
<larsc>
probably cost some $ though
<whitequark>
and it actually won't help me since I don't wear shoes at home
<Ornotermes>
whitequark: you could experiemnt with liquid fabric softener
<whitequark>
and it is easier to take socks off than to invent some fancy antistatic thing
<larsc>
I think you can also connect the bracelet to your radiator
<larsc>
or other pipes
<larsc>
basically anything that you can assume as a conductive connection to ground
<whitequark>
radiator, hmm... but it is painted
<whitequark>
and iirc there is some regulation that states that radiator must not be used as ground connection
<larsc>
I don't think anybody cares about your bracelet
<larsc>
it's not like it is high voltage or high current or anything
<larsc>
things might go bad if the radiator is connected to the lightning rod ;)
<Ornotermes>
larsc: thats why you put a fuse in between them :P
<larsc>
here at the appartment complex where I live the lightning rod is connected to a metal fence in front of the building
<larsc>
I wonder if that is safe
<whitequark>
larsc: no, I think it's because radiator might not actually be well-grounded
<Ornotermes>
i'd keep my feet close together if i'm near that during a lightning storm
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: nope, it's most likely to avoid corrosion from phantom currents flowing thru the radiator tubing, and also for gas heating it's an absolute nogo: gas pipes are strictly forbidden to get connected to anything but a central potential equalization
<DocScrutinizer05>
larsc: I guess the fence is connected to the lightning protection ground
<DocScrutinizer05>
mandatory for all huge metallic objects outside
<DocScrutinizer05>
your gutter and downpipe will be as well, if made from metal
<DocScrutinizer05>
basically even your bathtub should be connected to the central potential equalization
<DocScrutinizer05>
and probably you Protective Earth of your mains grid also shall be on Potential Equalization
<DocScrutinizer05>
I'm not absolutely sure about the latter, since OTOH PE and Neutral shall get connected in your central mains distribution
<DocScrutinizer05>
which in turn would create phantom current in parallel to your house's mains Neutral along the Ground of potential eq.
<DocScrutinizer05>
which might corrode the anode
<DocScrutinizer05>
all that is an art rather than a science
<larsc>
ok
<DocScrutinizer05>
in the old days you were allowed to connect 3 mains outlets to a RST-N 4wire in star config. Nowadays houses burn down from Neutral overheating when you connect non-linear loads to all three outlets
<larsc>
but they didn't back then?
<DocScrutinizer05>
since for non-linear loads the currents from R, S and T don't add up to 0 on N, but can rather add up to 3 times the current on either of the life wires
<DocScrutinizer05>
back then you had no non-linear loads
<DocScrutinizer05>
worst thing you could have was an inductive load, and that wasn't so much of a problem
<DocScrutinizer05>
a completely inductive load on R and a Ohm-ish load on S could at best add up to 1.5 maybe on N
<DocScrutinizer05>
and you hardly could create an equally massive 100% capacitive load on T
<DocScrutinizer05>
nowadays with switched mode PSUs you got completely different current shapes that have almost no relation to the voltage applied to them
<DocScrutinizer05>
so you end up with a current on N that's possibly 3*f and the sum of R, S and T currents
<DocScrutinizer05>
whitequark: usually you attach those antistatic wristbands to PE of next mains outlet
<DocScrutinizer05>
via a secure 10M R
<DocScrutinizer05>
secure means 400V rating
<DocScrutinizer05>
possibly higher, so it doesn't "break down" when you touch something that's carrying static charge
<DocScrutinizer05>
mind you: once there's a tiny spark creating an ionized path across the resistor, even 220V can flow across that path
<DocScrutinizer05>
sth that the resistor is meant to protect you from, to mitigate worst case
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<wpwrak>
whitequark: (lie) no, of course not. just that it's not an argument to support your claim that excessive levels of salt are okay.
<wpwrak>
whitequark: (new camera) and no exif ? that's lame :)
<wpwrak>
(static electricity) not really needed around here. today, the air was so humid i had trouble breathing when walking outside ... (first time it was *that* bad)
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<wpwrak>
"GLaDOS) hah, now i know where that portal meme comes from :)
<wpwrak>
dos1: also, if it does this: _curses.error: use_default_colors() returned ERR
<wpwrak>
then you have to stty sane
<wpwrak>
(trying to run it on my desktop linux)
<wpwrak>
with TERM=xterm it runs in monochrome ... but doesn't show the obstacles
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<dos1>
wpwrak: interesting, here it works without any problems
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<wpwrak>
you mean it finds the colors ? or that it displays something visible if the terminal is monochrome ?
<wpwrak>
(stty sane) naw, that's not what i meant ;-) what happens is that curses.curs_set(0) fails and then the program exits, leaving the tty in raw mode
<wpwrak>
so after the failure one has to "clean up" with stty sane
<dos1>
yep, already had the "aha" moment :D
<wpwrak>
you don't need it before setup, and you also don't need it after normal exit
<wpwrak>
:)
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<dos1>
wpwrak: it should be now playable on monochrome vts
<dos1>
at least works here with TERM=vt100 :)
<wpwrak>
yeah, here too ! thanks ! :)
<dos1>
some parts of the code were written on ben itself :D