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<Cthulhux>
i use clavier+.
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<jasom>
Will the following always use an "e" for the exponent separator? (let ((*read-default-float-format* (type-of x))) (princ x))
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<jasom>
the specification seems to imply that, but doesn't outright say that.
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<jeosol>
aeth: I did see the news about umn.edu introducing the vulnerabilities - shocked as well
* semz
really doesn't get the outrage about this
<semz>
this is the kind of thing reviews should catch - other parties are very likely doing this already and they aren't polite enough to announce themselves
<Bike>
mostly i'm amazed that according to their paper, the IRB did not consider it human subject research
<jasom>
semz: as much as I'd like to discuss that, it's OT here
<Bike>
oh yeah, sorry
<semz>
eh, I suppose it is OT
<aeth>
#lispcafe
<Bike>
it's not like they're going around sniping projects, so there's basically no chance of it happening to clisp or something
<aeth>
eh
<aeth>
there's a 0% chance of it happening anywhere in a particular, but there's a nonzero chance of it happening somewhere else
<aeth>
so having that story spread helps
<aeth>
I guess what makes it particularly close to 0% for Lisp implementations is that most are quite old and this whole "cybersecurity" trend is relatively new
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<aeth>
It might affect Clasp if someone did something similar to LLVM, though.
<Bike>
clisp has a major open arbitrary code execution flaw
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Shinmera>
copec: Yes
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<Nilby>
no-defun-allowed: Wow! That's a very impressive display of insane speed. Is there some way we could harness this maddness in more normal code? Could you somehow make the compiler do this with my shitcode and some vauguely portable with-insanely-fast-simd-macros-for-dummies?
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<no-defun-allowed>
You'd need some vectorising compiler. I know GCC and LLVM can vectorise a fair few things automatically, but I haven't heard of any Lisp compiler do it. (Clasp apparently generates too messy code to get LLVM to vectorise right now, though I wonder how ECL fares.)
<no-defun-allowed>
The compiler needs to know something about SIMD so that it can put vectors in SIMD registers in the end, and I only know that SBCL does; though cl-simd used to work on ECL apparently.
<no-defun-allowed>
I do have to deal with virtual memory/mmap too in that test.
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<Nilby>
Even without fully automatic vectorization, the techniques you use here maybe could be harnessed with some wrappers. cl-simd looks a bit tricky to use. Maybe special vectorized versions of some of the sequence functions?
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<no-defun-allowed>
I think that "borrowing" the JEP 338 vector API could be the basis for a manual vectorisation library.
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<no-defun-allowed>
flip214: I see they are doing CRC32 computation, but they also test on a buffer that has already been loaded into memory.
<no-defun-allowed>
By mmaping I suppose we also include some MMU fudging in the runtime measured, even if we are just remapping pages in disk cache.
<flip214>
I guess that petalisp would be a good point for such simd things... << Shinmera
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<Shinmera>
hm?
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<Shinmera>
What do I have to do with this
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<no-defun-allowed>
I think you are thinking of heisig, and we did briefly discuss a vector library and having Petalisp use it.
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<Nilby>
I imagine a Lisp API could be a bit nice than the Java one, and implementation easier without a JVM and JIT getting in the way, but it does seem silly to have 1 core go this fast while there are 15 others idle.
<no-defun-allowed>
Er, SIMD instructions only run on one core. You need to use multiple threads to use multiple cores still.
<Nilby>
Right, I'm thinking about how to mix threading and vectorization. I know everyone seems to use GPUs for this now, but we don't currently seem to compile to GPUs.
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<no-defun-allowed>
You can compile (a subset of all possible) Petalisp programs to a GPU if you so desire.
<Nilby>
no-defun-allowed: Thanks. I didn't know about those.
<no-defun-allowed>
Pro-tip: don't run software by people who write "🦎REDUCTIONS🦎ARE🦎GONE🦎🦎🦎" in a commit message.
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<Nilby>
Hmmm. O_o maybe I like lizard in my commits, and don't fear self-deprecating code.
<contrapunctus>
no-defun-allowed: "lizard reductions are gone"? What does that even mean?
<no-defun-allowed>
"Reductions are gone!" would be what I was thinking when reductions were removed from the intermediate representation, replaced with clever selection and mapping instructions instead.
<no-defun-allowed>
🦎🦎🦎 is a lizard rave of course.
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<heisig>
Can some CS student in this channel please move to my university, so that I can hire him/her for working on SIMD stuff?
<heisig>
We actually have the money, but we can only spend it on our own students.
<heisig>
And I haven't found someone willing/capable enough to work on such a library.
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<flip214>
heisig: would physically moving be necessary? and how much money? ;)
<heisig>
flip214: Yes, moving would be necessary (but I think also worthwhile for a student). We have enough money to hire a student part-time for many months. Probably not enough for you though :)
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<no-defun-allowed>
I would say I got oclcl-petalisp working again, but the code generator insists there are four inputs and not two somehow.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Ah, Petalisp now emits multiple loads per buffer sometimes, and we use instruction numbers to designate buffers.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Okay, now it works again. And the patch removed more lines than it added, so I figure something went right.
* heisig
is relieved
<flip214>
heisig: do I look that expensive or important? oh, too old perhaps ;)
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* Shinmera
is too busy making negative money making games to work for heisig
<heisig>
Shinmera: I will buy all your games, so in a sense you are already working for me :)
<Shinmera>
Hah
<Shinmera>
Thanks for the feedback, by the way!
<ebrasca>
Shinmera: Do you mean the 2d game?
<Shinmera>
ebrasca: I have several 2D games, but I mean https://kandria.com, yes.
<ebrasca>
I have read some of those articles , they are good!
<l-n>
wow, that is a nice project for sure... i was looking t it time ago on steam...
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<l-n>
at
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<Josh_2>
hi hi hi
<heisig>
Will there be modding support in Kandria? Will I be able to connect via swank?
<Shinmera>
ebrasca: Thanks! :)
<Josh_2>
Is there a way I can turn a string like "250220" and an number in seconds like 28000 into a local-time timestamp?
<Josh_2>
I know I can turn the seconds into a timestamp, just not sure about the date
<Shinmera>
heisig: you already can! edit ~/.config/shirakumo/kandria/settings.lisp to have :debugging (:swank T)
<Odin->
That's a very non-standard date format.
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<Shinmera>
heisig: Modding support (through a stable and defined API and loader mechanism) is something I would very much like to do, but it's very very low on the list, since it's a lot of effort and unfortunately not at all guaranteed it would attract more players.
<heisig>
Shinmera: I understand. Swank is enough modding support for me :)
<Odin->
I think some games specify APIs for internal development, and then expose them as modding options. That's not particularly relevant for tiny teams, though...
<Shinmera>
heisig: you can also launch the game with "swank" as argument and it'll just start wank and wait on an infinite loop for you to do whatever.
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<Nilby>
Just being able to connect to swank is alread 100x better than some game with lua. :)
<heisig>
Ooh, nice. And Kandria has a layer for accessing the Steam API. I should try Emacs->Swank->Kandria->Steam to chat with my friends.
<Shinmera>
Hah
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<Shinmera>
The SteamWorks api doesn't allow you to send messages to friends, iirc, only bring up the integrated overlay to do that.
<Shinmera>
probably for security reasons.
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<heisig>
"Every program has (at least) two purposes: the one for which it was written and another for which it wasn't." -- Alan Perlis on people using video games as a proxy for sending messages from their text editor.
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<Josh_2>
I managed to make my timestamp
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<copec>
Shinmera: Thanks! I was going to attempt to figure that out myself too.
<copec>
BTW I do (defmethod org.shirakumo.dns-client::decode-record-payload ((type (eql :NS)) octets start end) (org.shirakumo.dns-client::decode-host octets start 0))
<copec>
I can lookup all the payload types and make a list for you
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<Shinmera>
A PR would be cool!
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<nij>
[crossed posted on #emacs] Is there a way to set a symbol to a "place"? For example, (setq x (car y))? I don't recall seeing a place being a lisp object.. and if it isn't a lisp object, why don't we make it one?? It seems useful.
<nij>
Oh my example is stupidly wrong.. lemme see how to fix.
<beach>
Places are not first-class objects in Common Lisp.
<Bike>
there is no way to do that, no.
<phoe>
nij: a place is second-class in Common Lisp
<nij>
phoe: I'm aware of it.. but why :-( ?
<phoe>
you can, however, use lambdas to capture it
<Bike>
being able to keep efficient references to the interiors of objects makes some aspects of garbage collection much more annoying.
<phoe>
or (ql:quickload :cl-locatives)
<nij>
Bike: is that a reason for me?
<phoe>
nij: yes
<nij>
But CL is hackable. If I want to hack it so that it has first-class places, is that possible?
<phoe>
CL is *easily* hackable to a point
<Bike>
depends. like phoe said, you can do it with closures pretty easily. but that's not enormously efficient.
<phoe>
and adding first-class locatives (or rather, re-adding them) is possible
<phoe>
but requires you to either hack the GC
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<nij>
ohohhh im reading cl-locatives manual
<phoe>
...or, you know, just use lambdas as I said
<phoe>
here, I just captured X in a pair of accessors
<phoe>
a reader and a writer
<phoe>
you can funcall the first to read the value, and you can funcall the second with a new object to write the value
<phoe>
that's all, those two lambdas capture the place rather nicely
<phoe>
you can even change this to be a single function, (lambda (&optional (y nil yp)) (if yp x (setf x y)))
<phoe>
when called with zero args it will return the value, when called with one arg it will set the value
<nij>
Is this how cl-locative is implemented?
<phoe>
t
<phoe>
except it has its custom LOCATIVE structure that wraps the reader and writer lambdas
<nij>
hmmm very interesting!
<phoe>
stylewarning: cl-locatives on quicklisp-projects seems to have an ancient repo url on bitbucket, do you have any newer one?
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<nij>
Hmm.. but actually what I'm hoping for is to (setq y 3).. and this should change the internal of x.
<phoe>
what's y?
<Bike>
once you set up these functions you can put them in a structure or whatever, pass that around, and then write a LOCATION place (or something) to do it
<nij>
I wonder if a mundane lang, like python, can do this so elegantly..
<nij>
Lisp is great.
<nij>
I like the second idea more. More transparent.
<nij>
I'm just surprised that macromap hasn't existed yet.
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<Bike>
well, this only works for macros that take exactly one parameter
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<nij>
In macromap I can also slice args
<nij>
so the input can be lists of arbitrarily many parameters.
<Bike>
sure
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<nij>
Btw, this is the first macro in my life I've written. It's newbie-ish, but it works right away. Thank you very much for all supports and kindness, #lisp. :) :) :) I'll remember today.
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<daphnis>
is it possible to call a cl function from elisp via sly?
<nij>
yes. iirc.. lemme see which func is that
<daphnis>
oh, there seems to be swank::eval-in-emacs
<nij>
sly-eval?
<daphnis>
i don't have #'sly-eval
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<nij>
On my side it says it's from sly.el..
<nij>
not sure why you don't have that.. @_@
<nij>
if you run `M-x sly`.. does the function get loaded?
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<daphnis>
nij, no, i have sly-eval-defun, -region, -buffer, but not sly-eval
<nij>
daphnis - oh you mean commands.
<nij>
sly-eval isn't a command, but it's a function
<nij>
First, connect your emacs to a sly by `M-x sly`.
<daphnis>
nij, ah, sorry
<nij>
And then, evaluate this in _EMACS_
<nij>
(sly-eval (+ 1 1))
<nij>
the sexp (+ 1 1) will be passed into sly, evaluated, and returned (2) to emacs
<daphnis>
works. thanks!
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<daphnis>
still, if i do (defun foo () 'bar) at the repl, i can't call that by (sly-eval (foo))
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<theothornhill>
daphnis: If you define the function in cl-user, you can call it with "(sly-eval '(cl-user::foo))"
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<nij>
And if you have (defvar *x* 123) at the repl, to call it from emacs, you do `(sly-eval 'cl-user::x)`
<nij>
Oh.. so actually (sly-eval (+ 1 1)) is confusing! It will call #'+ in the sly-io-package.
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<nij>
Instead, if you want "normal" (+ 1 1).. you need to call (sly-eval '(cl-user::+ 1 1))
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<daphnis>
thank you. somehow the docstring led me to think (sly-eval (foo) :cl-user)
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<theothornhill>
Thankfully I stopped reading the docs after "Evaluate SEXP...". It is indeed confusing, so sometimes laziness helps :P
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<nij>
It's very confusing indeed!
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<_death>
nij: (sly-eval (+ 1 1)) will evaluate (+ 1 1) in emacs, and pass 2 to cl and back
<theothornhill>
yeah
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<nij>
In get-setf-expansion, there's an parameter ENV. From CLHS it seems that I can feed NIL or any other "environment object". But I fail to see other examples of an environmental object. Any quick examples?
<Shinmera>
stylewarning: How's platform support for that?
<Shinmera>
Seems linux specific.
<Shinmera>
You'd have to do legwork and see if there's similar stuff on Win32 and Darwin, in the very least.
<_death>
nij: usually this function is called by a macro.. a macro can take an &environment parameter
<_death>
nij: the example in CLHS actually shows that
<MichaelRaskin>
nij: and this parameter can be passed to macroexpand-1
<MichaelRaskin>
(and similar functions)
<_death>
nij: ah, guess I missed "other"
<MichaelRaskin>
Environment objects are very implementation specific (and not guaranteed to be or not be of any specific type; they are plain lists in some cases)
<MichaelRaskin>
… and all the functions for inspecting them have been dropped from the standard
<stylewarning>
Shinmera: I figured since it’s “advice” for perf optimization it could just be ignored where unsupported.
<_death>
some implementations provide some cltl2 operators that can take it as well
<Shinmera>
stylewarning: It'll have to be, but I'd still want you to see if there's similar stuff.
<stylewarning>
Of course, that’s reasonable
<nij>
Oh I see! So you just (defmacro ... (.. &env...)).
<nij>
But how do you "construct" an environment object by hand?
<_death>
nij: you don't
<nij>
I'm just curious :) possible to construct?
<MichaelRaskin>
Well, inside the macro expansion code you will have one!
<_death>
there's a cltl2 operator to augment it
<MichaelRaskin>
(If a macro is called inside a non-trivial lexical environment, at least)
<MichaelRaskin>
Just look at the version timestamps to convince yourself this _is_ latest
<no-defun-allowed>
I think the former.
<gigamonkey>
I've only been gone for like a decade or so, dunno why I'd have expected it to be out of beta. ;-)
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<edgar-rft>
quicklisp should upgrade and become a dominant alpha
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<nij>
Hello! Is there a way to fully describe a package in CL? Preferably, I'd like to see almost all information presented when it's defined by defpackage.
<nij>
In particular, not only do I hope to see what symbol is inherited, I also hope to see where a symbol is inherited from.
<Bike>
i don't think there's an overall function. find-symbol will tell you whether a symbol is inherited; you can loop over a package's symbols looking at that.
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<Bike>
to determine where a symbol is inherited from you would iterate over the package-use-list. any packages that have that symbol as external (and there can be more than one!) will be where that symbol is inherited from
<Bike>
if you just mean the symbol's home package, that's easier to get