<caoliver>
How do you have your keyboard mapped, or do you have an old 'bolix kbd interfaced to your mac?
<palter>
The emulator maps data to one area of memory and tags to another. So, if we were to somehow fill memory, it would be using 2^32 bytes for tags and 8^32. bytes for data.
<palter>
That would be 5GB
<no-defun-allowed>
Fair enough then.
<caoliver>
Splitting off the tags that way was probably the only sane thing to do.
<palter>
It is. The VLM world loads are actually store that way so we can mmap directly into memory.
<caoliver>
Eh? 4GB tags and 16GB data make 20GB I think.
<palter>
Right. It's 4GW * 5 bytes/word
<no-defun-allowed>
Is anything compiled to the register machine Genera runs on? Does that also split tags and data?
<pjb>
Unless you sort your data by tag.
<pjb>
For example, you can have only one tag per page.
<caoliver>
I suspect that has 40bit words directly.
<palter>
The stack cache is packed 1 Ivory word (tag+data) to one native word.
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<caoliver>
Much like the old DECs had 36 bit words.
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* caoliver
never used those. Only PDP-11 series
<palter>
Ivory hardware actually has 48 bit words -- 32 bit data, 8 bit tag, 8 bit ECC
<palter>
Ah yes, the PDP-6 and PDP-10
<palter>
(Used to play Space War on the PDP-6 at the MIT AI Lab.)
<caoliver>
I did have some time on a heavily locked down VAX/VMS box in school, but that was no fun.
<caoliver>
I got off of that as soon as I could.
<palter>
And, for another 36 bit machine, there's Multics
<palter>
(GE 645, then Honeywell 6180 and DPS-8/M)
<caoliver>
Did you ever run across Tom Van Vleck?
<palter>
Worked with him at both MIT and Honeywell
<palter>
I spent about 10 years working on Multics split between MIT and Honeywell.
<palter>
Then 9 years at Symbolics until they shut down.
<caoliver>
Relative of his (Sally) lives near me, and her late husband and I started a small ISP back in the 90s.
<caoliver>
I'm not sure there's a good emu for Multics.
<palter>
Actually, there is one now.
<caoliver>
The only historical thing I have on my boxen is a Hercules instance running Michigan Terminal System. I tossed that together to scare an old friend who went to UMich.
<caoliver>
Cool. The more of these thing, the more we can corrupt the youth of Athens. ;-P
<caoliver>
s/thing/things/
<palter>
(I've lived in Boston all my life. Started hacking in high school on an IBM 1130 in 1968)
<palter>
Guy Steele was one year behind me at school. I went to MIT and he went to Harvard.
<caoliver>
And now he lives in the belly of the beast.
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* caoliver
lives in Michigan, and really hasn't achieved escape velocity.
<terpri>
White_Flame, revivory is a great name. i called my cl-based ivory emulator mammoth :) but it can barely POST at the moment, not close to full functionality
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<terpri>
it's unfortunate that opengenera will presumably remain proprietary. some folks in #lispm were making good progress with CADR emulation (emulating newer versions than what was originally released), but the channel was locked without notice
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<terpri>
https://tumbleweed.nu/lm-3 <- CADR work (system 78 is usable and they're trying to get system 98 or 99 working; no idea how significant the differences between versions are though)
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<White_Flame>
terpri: one thing that I really like and got in early is the ability to call directly from CL into Ivory functions, but that's only sane when the emulation is paused
<White_Flame>
it would be nice to transition both ways, and get native CL stuff accessed from Genera as well
<White_Flame>
my net connection is being stupid right now so I hven't kept up with the conversation, but I tried the instructions from https://static.loomcom.com/genera/genera-install.html again, and was able to build VLM from source, which is really, really good for me to be able to continue now. It hadn't worked in the past from source builds for me
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<palter>
That is, of course, the C emulator which is a transliteration of the Alpha native VLM source code to C. It has some interesting issues. (One I remember from a client's site is that either the calendar clock or microsecond clock runs about 3 times real speed. Don't remember which one. But, TCP timeouts were messed up by it.)
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<palter>
I would love to see Genera (and Open Genera and Portable Genera) released but JCMa hasn't answered my last email so I don't know why he won't.
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<White_Flame>
right, I'm not porting that VLM, I'm rewriting from first principles. But it can give me an execution trace of what should be happening for reference, now that I can adjust its source and build
<White_Flame>
for a given test world
<caoliver>
JCMa is an interesting fellow to say the least. The license surrounding his web server was ummm... interesting.
* caoliver
gets a dog in the manger feeling.
<palter>
White_Flame - If you want an instruction trace of booting a world, I still have one.
<palter>
(It's 3.3GB)
<White_Flame>
it has to be the exact same world as mine, so I'm going to make my own
<White_Flame>
no clue if the early boot stuff has changed much, though
<palter>
It's probably from a world named fixed7.vlod. (It's from July 2016)
<White_Flame>
but yeah, I want to verify how & where I diverge from VLM and blow up
<palter>
I know what you mean. That's how I debugged the Intel and ARM ports.
<terpri>
fun factoid: according to my reading of the standard license header, as of 2018, the US federal government could unilaterally relicense most of the genera source code if they wanted, presumably due to the level of public funding
<White_Flame>
I'm now using a Genera-8-5-xlib-patched.vlod
<palter>
What's the date on the world load?
<White_Flame>
where would I find that?
<terpri>
hard to say whether that's more or less likely than the copyright owner (john c. mallery?) relicensing it though
<palter>
Of course, once sequence breaks start, the trace will diverge.
<terpri>
caoliver, not sure if it's DARPA per se, but the clause refers to the National Reconnonaissance Office
<caoliver>
I just wondered about how the public funding came about. I was always a little miffed that RSA wasn't broadly available for public use given that taxpayers (via the Navy) funding the development.
* caoliver
got a copy of TM-82 when he was in high school.
<caoliver>
Not that I was any sort of genius (I'm most certainly not), but the Martin Gardner article piqued my interest.
<terpri>
"Government purpose rights shall remain in effect for a period of five years unless a different period has been negotiated." symbolics apparently negotiated something like a *thirty year* restriction :p
<caoliver>
2018 was a while ago unless I got dropped in the time machine yet again.
<caoliver>
I think the key language is "No restrictions apply after the expiration date shown above."
<caoliver>
But IANAL.
<caoliver>
That would also depend on the government having worlds absent of classified information.
* caoliver
really needs to attend to his pasta. BBL.
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<terpri>
right, and "the Government shall have unlimited rights" after expiration. but whether they want to exercise those rights is a separate question
<terpri>
(IANAL either)
<caoliver>
Maybe I should have gone to law school rather than playing with math and computers.
<caoliver>
Probably not. I'm a very not people/politics sort of person.
<terpri>
hm, seems that you can only view relatively recent spending on usaspending.gov. but the army paid symbolics almost $600k between 2006 and 2011 (for onsite hardware and software support) so someone was still using it
<terpri>
(support + an opengenera license)
<caoliver>
It wouldn't surprise me. However I'd have assumed that they'd budge a port.
<caoliver>
s/budge/budget/
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<caoliver>
Say Allegro (is that still a thing?) on a modern fast box.
<caoliver>
It'd be a hell of a lot cheaper than what was squandered on F-22 and F-35.
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<caoliver>
Being a cheap ass, I'd do anything (assuming a ramen budget) with CCL or SBCL.
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<palter>
Those dates are post Symbolics so the Army would've been contracting through David Schmidt. I know that around 2015, there was a DoD dictum to get off non-standard systems. It's why Dave contracted with me (through Clozure) to do the Intel port.
<palter>
There were a couple of clients left then as I recall. One used Genera just for development and deployed on Allegro, I think. The other ran their application as a service.
<palter>
Don't remember which one was doing work for the Army. (Might have been both)
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<palter>
There's still a client who uses Genera for development and deploys on Allegro for a commercail product.
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<terpri>
i always wondered what those contracts were about. mystery solved :)
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<ldbeth>
how's the behavior of INTERN related to READTABLE-CASE?
<no-defun-allowed>
From memory, they are not at all.
<no-defun-allowed>
For all strings S, (string= (symbol-name (intern S)) S)
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<caoliver>
That DoD dictum isn't surprising: What is surprising is that it wasn't issued sooner.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<caoliver>
It's hard to wreck a nice ...
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<jcowan>
Maiko, the Interlisp VM, also runs on both Mac and Linux (and Solaris and of course Linux for Windows)
<jcowan>
As for Elisps, it's true that Guile and Kawa don't provide the editor-specific data structures, but they do provide the Elisp language as such.
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<no-defun-allowed>
The example provides a text interface-based example for what you want.
<phoe>
like do what the debugger does, show a series of like [FOO] Perform a FOO operation."
<phoe>
sort of thing?
<jmercouris>
phoe: yes, exactly
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<phoe>
because then what no-defun-allowed said - get a list of restarts available in the current dynenv this way via COMPUTE-RESTARTS, get restart names via RESTART-NAME, get restart reports via princ-to-stringing the restart objects, call them via INVOKE-RESTART-INTERACTIVELY after binding *query-io* in a proper way
<jmercouris>
Hm
<phoe>
;; or y'know you can read my book instead
<jmercouris>
Double hm
<phoe>
you could take a look at the debugger of portable-condition-system as well
<phoe>
because this directly operates with restarts and displays them to the user
<phoe>
in particular DEFINE-COMMAND :RESTARTS and below
<jmercouris>
I see very useful
<jmercouris>
Thank you
<phoe>
no problem
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<ldbeth>
good evening
<phoe>
hello
<phoe>
jmercouris: basically this sounds like you want to write your own Lisp debugger, which kind of makes sense because nyxt aims to be a Lisp environment
<ldbeth>
someone asked me if it is a good idea to modify *print-case* for readability
<phoe>
dynamically, or globally?
<ldbeth>
globally, he encountered the problem that setting *print-case* would cause trouble for cl-base64's macro
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<ldbeth>
which uses (intern (format nil "~A" ... something
<phoe>
oh, yes
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<phoe>
;; I think that at least one of my own libraries is going to fall apart the same way if print-case is modified
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<phoe>
;; I need to verify this someday
<jmercouris>
phoe: yes, we are going that direction
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<phoe>
I actually cannot see INTERN over FORMAT NIL in there
<ldbeth>
personally I feel IT IS NOT A BIG PROBLEAM READING UPPERCASED INDENTIFIERS.
<phoe>
what's the exact error you are getting? cl-base64 seems actually immune to this sorta error
<ldbeth>
he added (setf *print-case* :downcase) in his .sbclrc and using cl-base64-20201016-git
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<ldbeth>
and it's acually loading another package complains "The function cl-base64:base64-string-to-usb8-array is undefined."
<phoe>
show me that another package
<phoe>
because cl-base64 seems to define symbols with upcased names, like, always
<ldbeth>
phoe: "crypto-shortcuts", in package nice-school
<ldbeth>
might need to empty fasl files first
<ldbeth>
probably nice-school is the package he's developing
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<beach>
Bike: How is work on Cleavir going?
<Bike>
think i'm going to have to work on trucler like i mentioned before i get much farther with it.
<beach>
That makes sense.
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<jmercouris>
ferada: how do I add Gboxed types to cl-cffi-gtk?
<jmercouris>
such that get-g-boxed-foreign-info-for-gtype functions properly?
<jmercouris>
Ive tried to use the DEFINE-G-BOXED-* macros to no avail
<jmercouris>
which makes me think that it should be defined via define-g-boxed-opaque
<jmercouris>
however, how to use this is incredibly unclear
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<ferada>
jmercouris: hi, ...boxed-opaque looks correct to me like you said and how to use it, just look at the existing cases, like gtk-widget-path for example, function parameters use (object (g-boxed-foreign gtk-widget-path)) e.g.
<jmercouris>
ferada: I see, thanks
<jmercouris>
you mean (g-boxed-foreign gtk-widget-path) for specializing my defcfun
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<jmercouris>
why could i not just treat it as a pointer?
<jmercouris>
what is the point of wrapping in g-boxed when it is opaque?
<ferada>
you can pass raw pointers around, then you just have no idea what's in it
<jmercouris>
ferada: that's usually what I am doing
<jmercouris>
here is where the problem comes in
<jmercouris>
when you use g-signal-connect it tries to do some magic and convert the results into appropriate objects
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<Josh_2>
Afternoon
<beach>
Hello Josh_2.
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<rodriga>
hmm is there a more active Lisp group? also has anybody here bet their career on Lisp/Clojure/functional? What projects and information would you guys recommend if you want to one day be a professional hacker building "compilers" and eDSLs.
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<Shinmera>
I am betting my career on Lisp right this second.
<Shinmera>
and also previous seconds
<Xach>
rodriga: there is a discord lisp discussion channel that seems active, i don't know if it's more or less active than #lisp
<Xach>
rodriga: i think a number of people here write common lisp code as a career
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<rodriga>
sorry if this sounds like a dumb question but how would you get a job or internship in Lisp? seems here locally its not very popular. did you guys network by first getting remote open source projects, internships, etc...? i've read On Lisp & SCIP.
<Shinmera>
I am self-employed, so the hiring process was very easy :)
<Xach>
rodriga: i liked using lisp but it was not formally part of my programming job in the past. i used common lisp to prototype things quickly and to implement internal tools where the implementation language wasn't all that critical. i also wrote a lot of code and shared it as i made my own hobby projects in common lisp. i went to conferences and chatted and emailed with people using lisp. over time i got into
<Xach>
some jobs where lisp was the main thing.
<Xach>
I don't have advice for someone starting today, sorry - the world has changed a lot since i got started. I don't know if the same approach would work starting now.
<gabc>
Conferences for one is a big more awkward today :P
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<rodriga>
are there remote conferences with a good amount of socializing? Hmm, I've made lots of projects but I never bothered to blog about them. Hmm I remember that in a few lines of code if you turned clojure code from parens into <span> and <div> you could then style clojure code to look however you wanted without changing the underlying s-exprs.
<Xach>
When I was getting into learning Common Lisp, there were multiple annual international conferences, and many regional enthusiast meetings. It's really dropped off a lot since then.
<alandipert>
otoh, programmers have never been in higher demand, and information has never been as accessible
<Shinmera>
ELS is coming up soon though
<rodriga>
yeah, but it seems that a lot of the in demand jobs are for technology that won't last long
<rodriga>
after reading SCIP and On Lisp and thinking about weird things like modifying Eval or Macros, I'm think Lisp is the most powerful language, and its the easiest to change your program from doing one thing to another.
<Xach>
rodriga: keep reading, there's a lot more interesting stuff.
<Shinmera>
Power is a silly concept, but I'm glad you're enjoying your time.
<Xach>
Paradigms of AI Programming is an interesting lisp that will teach you some nice Common Lisp stuff
<rodriga>
i did skim that book already haha
<rodriga>
trying to think how can I network myself into an internship or entry-level lisp job?
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<Shinmera>
Contribute to open source, get your name out there.
<Shinmera>
Submit papers to ELS, help folks out in IRC here.
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<Shinmera>
Wouldn't expect anything for years though unless you get super lucky or start a company yourself.
<Josh_2>
Xach: in vecto is there a way to compose colours or calculate the colours of overlaps?
<rodriga>
well do you guys have any interesting projects i can help with? There was this LightTable like plugin for emacs, and I was thinking if anybody finds those kind of environments productive (compared to Slime).
<rodriga>
oh yeah i clicked that link and it says something about a library for writing GUIs, I was thinking what if you could take all your Lisp code functions and it could take the code and automatically create a (bad) GUI for scaffolding
<rodriga>
wait someone probably has already thought of that, rails creates scaffolds from your model, maybe they got the idea form somewhere else
<rodriga>
Shinmera: I wouldn't know where to start to learn your engine, hmm
<Shinmera>
Well, a tutorial is one of the things we're currently lacking :)
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<Shinmera>
The other devs and I hang out in #shirakumo on Freenode here to discuss the development of it and questions surrounding it, if you want to lurk.
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<rodriga>
Shinmera: sou ieba nihonjin desuka? mae ni nihongo nourroku shiken N2 ni gougaku shitandesukedo...
<Shinmera>
日本人じゃないですけどちょっと話します。名前は偶然ですよ。
<Shinmera>
Anyway, let's keep it to English here.
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<Josh_2>
Today I learned why its important to use (defvar ..) over defparameter
<Josh_2>
When I deleted some stored data for over 50 users
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<Josh_2>
luckily I had it backed up
<Josh_2>
Well tbf if I hadn't made the variable an empty hash table then it would have overwritten by backup as well
<rodriga>
oh yeah in python, I once had a bug when a long class that redefined a method
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<Josh_2>
I love being saved by an (unless
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<edgar-rft>
famous last words: (unless ...
<semz>
Is there a nice way to set *print-length* only for the representations in Slime? I don't want to set it globally but am rather sick of slowing Emacs down to a crawl whenever a returned list is large.
<rodriga>
oh yeah is Emacs sorf of like a Lisp OS like Smalltalk's Pharo? How hard is it to build a compatibility layer that can convet Emacls Lisp code to Common Lisp and Common Lisp code to Emacs Lisp?
<jackdaniel>
elisp has a package "imitating" common lisp
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<pjb>
rodriga: there's an emacs-cl CL implementation targetting emacs lisp that has bit-rotten since GNU emacs has lexical bindings. You could update it.
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<White_Flame>
rodriga: usually, the macro-based customization of CL is focused around creating the proper abstractions for your codebase, which just gives a few enhancements and interacts well with CL in a very readable way, not it's own completely separate languages
<White_Flame>
...swing and a miss
<Josh_2>
Does anyone know what stream log4cl uses?
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<jackdaniel>
what do you mean?
<jackdaniel>
clearly since there are multiple appenders it uses multiple streams
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<Josh_2>
Yes, basically the old functionality just locally bound *standard-output* so that I could grab the output and send it over a socket, but then I swapped my logging system to log4cl and this obviously broke
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<mfiano>
This isn't an answer, but perhaps try verbose.
<mfiano>
(I Like it better)
<jackdaniel>
you will need to check that in the source code, but if I remember correctly the appender protocol consists of a single method
<jackdaniel>
so it is enough to implement it for your stream and add the appender
<jackdaniel>
then (log:/message-function/ ,@message) will use it
<jackdaniel>
that said, from what you have said you expect it to intercept messages to the standard output - that's not how log4cl works
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<Josh_2>
Verbose is a logging tool mfiano?
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<mfiano>
Yes
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<Xach>
stylewarning: is there a new magicl release coming?
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<phoe>
Xach: did the last change to magicl not fix the build?
<phoe>
asking because I was kind of involved in it
<Xach>
phoe: I don't think it was tagged as a release on github. at least as of early this morning.
<phoe>
oh! yes, I see
<Xach>
that is the version i use for magicl
<Xach>
Josh_2: the color composition is not exposed directly.
<Xach>
Josh_2: the math is there for perusal in the code if you like, though.
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<Xach>
Josh_2: what did you have in mind?
<jcowan>
Is Trucler intended to be called from user-defined macros?
<Bike>
i think so, since the first example does so
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<jcowan>
I confess to not looking at examples when I read specs (they are often misleading or outright wrong in my experience)
<Bike>
well that's all i got. what it's actually been developed for so far is using it in compilers, tho.
<jcowan>
There are a few problematic specs where the examples are normative either de facto or de jure
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<stylewarning>
Xach yes we can re-release
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<cipherchess>
topic
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<Xach>
stylewarning: mycket bra
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<jasom>
Is there a library that makes a non-seekable stream (somewhat) seekable by adding buffering on top? I'm thinking something that guarantees always allowing seeking back N elements (up to the beginning, where N >> 1 and is possibly configurable)
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<mfiano>
A Gray stream wrapper for that would be only a couple lines of code not even worth a library
<Xach>
MORE LIBRARIES
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<no-defun-allowed>
leftpad-stream
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