<nij>
xach: "Because it’s got more stuff to be done and I haven’t done it yet."
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<dieggsy>
fiddlerwoaroof: cheers, thanks
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<Josh_2>
okay I did most of that code test in CL, pretty sweet
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<Josh_2>
seems to work well
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<nij>
While inspecting #'+, sly says it's a function. However, it works on integers and complex numbers.. which lead me think that it should be a method. Did I misunderstand anything?
<no-defun-allowed>
No, + is a function still. And a generic function (not a method) is still a function.
<no-defun-allowed>
The implementation of + might use a generic function (SICL bottoms out at a BINARY-ADD) but generic dispatch would not be pleasant for &rest arguments.
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<nij>
@_@
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I've always wondered why CLOS doesn't have arity-based dispatch
<fiddlerwoaroof>
The pattern you find in Prolog and Clojure where the 1-argument version of a function supplies a sensible default to the 2-arugment version of the same function seems somewhat more elegant than having like FOO and FOO-USING-CLASS
<fiddlerwoaroof>
For one thing, you have fewer chances to pick a bad name
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<charles`>
Good morning everyone
<nij>
gm charles`
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<charles`>
I can't wait for European Lisp Symposium in a few weeks
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<nij>
Hello! I might be asking this question too early, but it's just a prospect. If I want to write a program for some low level chips, would CL be useful in that case? Or I'd have to go to pretty low level lang like C?
<Bike>
like a microcontroller?
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<nij>
Don't really know the technical terms.. but I assume so.
<nij>
No mouse, no keyboard, no screen.. just something there that starts spinning once turned on.
<no-defun-allowed>
What is a microcontroller defined to be these days? I swear I've seen a few with megabytes of memory and 32-bit ARM chips, so it might be surprisingly not stupid to try to program one in CL.
<moon-child>
fiddlerwoaroof: I mean, there are optional and key parameters
<nij>
Was size the main issue for people to code CL on them, back in the days?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
moon-child: those don't work for gf dispatch, though
<moon-child>
fiddlerwoaroof: I think it makes more sense when you consider it contextually: multiple dynamic dispatch was a generalization of single dynamic dispatch, which is where a type contains a table of functions, and you call the function associated with the type of some object; dispatching the function based on the type of the object
<moon-child>
in multiple dynamic dispatch, you dispatch based on the type of multiple of the objects
<no-defun-allowed>
It's more that you want a definition like (defun + (&rest numbers) (reduce #'binary-+ numbers :initial-value 0))
<fiddlerwoaroof>
maybe
<moon-child>
why would that be affected by arity-based dispatch?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I don't really understand the relevance?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
My point is I can't right a function that takes 2 and 3 arguments and is able to dispatch based on the number of arguments
<no-defun-allowed>
So you'd want to put the dispatch in BINARY-+ I suppose.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
e.g. (do-whatever a) and (do-whatever a b)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
It's not impossible to make this work: it's trivial using Clojure or Prolog
<no-defun-allowed>
Or you have the cases (+) ⇒ 0, (+ a . rest) ⇒ (binary-+ a (apply #'+ rest)) I suppose.
<Bike>
yeah, i can't think of any reason it couldn't be done, though it might get a little funky with keyword arguments
<moon-child>
sounds like hygienic macros
<Bike>
fiddler is clearly not talking about variable arity functions like +
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<Bike>
but just having distinct functions for different lambda lists
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<ChoHag>
nij: Only in the sense that a smaller chip requires more frequent garbage collection, and garbage collection got a bad rap back then which it largely deserved.
<ChoHag>
These days even a tiny microcontroller is secretly a supercomputer and even bad GC would be acceptable.
<no-defun-allowed>
Usually you try not to allocate when doing manual memory management too.
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<Bike>
i guess you could implement arity dispatch pretty easily if you only care about required arguments. with compiler macros and stack allocated &rest arguments it could be reasonably efficient
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<charles`>
Is there a database independent DAO library?
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<Nilby>
charles`: I don't know how an DAO is different than an ORM, but there are quite a lot here: https://www.cliki.net/Database . I've used cl-sql in production for many years.
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<charles`>
I'm not sure if this is the accepted definition, but I think orm is just a programming language communicating with a database, and a dao is an abstraction on top of orm that is basically a 1 to 1 mapping of clos to a database table
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<Nilby>
I've used CLOS objects to represent tables and the ORM to manipulate, and I didn't find I needed much more than normal generic functions and methods.
<Nilby>
I think the way CL's methods are somewhat independent of classes makes it easier.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Nilby: I think CLOS's main advantage is that it's not primarily about defining classes
<Nilby>
fiddlerwoaroof: Yes. Among many other awesome advantages.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I think that's really the fundamental difference of CLOS
<fiddlerwoaroof>
It's about protocols defined in terms of generic functions
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
You can go quite a ways only using pre-defined classes and writing your own protocols
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<Nilby>
I my case you can go too far and make CLOS objects do something dumb like act like smalltalk/javascript.
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<no-defun-allowed>
How's that dumb?
<Nilby>
I don't know. It just doesn't feel as clean and magic as pure CLOS objects.
<Nilby>
But it's brilliant that it's possible.
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<beach>
Nilby: The term "CLOS object" is meaningless. Every Common Lisp object is an instance of some class and all classes are part of CLOS.
<no-defun-allowed>
In Smalltalk you can at least subclass the Integer class.
<Nilby>
It is meaningful when trying to make a distinction in style between prototyped objects.
<no-defun-allowed>
Not really, no.
<no-defun-allowed>
If you were saying the Smalltalk object system didn't feel as clean as CLOS does, then that would have meaning.
<Nilby>
beach: But I know it's not technically correct, and I'm glad as a CL designer you're great at being technically correct.
<beach>
Nilby: Most people, when they use that term mean either "standard object" or "instance of a standard class".
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<Nilby>
I was meaning how made some silly prototype/cloning things on top of normal CLOS style, which is still an object, but isn't really the normal CL style.
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<cage_>
hi, i would like to add mktemps(3) to osicat even if non standard, any people here that works on that project that would share your opinions/suggestions about adding this function?
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<nij>
Hello! Sometimes while developing, lisp just crashes and has no chance telling me what's wrong. Especially when I'm not interacting via emacs. Is there a way to force logging any signals?
<beach>
nij: There should be a reason in the *inferior-lisp* buffer.
<nij>
Only if I'm using emacs?
<nij>
I can use a swank/slynk server to do so.. but just wonder if I can find log in another way.
<phoe>
nij: if you are not using emacs, use the terminal in which lisp is launched instead of *inferior-lisp*
<Shinmera>
what are you doing that crashes it? Munging foreign memory?
<nij>
StumpWM
<phoe>
but basically, stdout/stderr are what I would want to see in such a case
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<nij>
Oh.. maybe the stdout/stderr is logged by X? That could be..
<phoe>
figure out how to capture those (maybe they already are captured by your OS in some way? systemd logs?)
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<cage_>
nij, IIRC you could look at .xsession-errors
<nij>
I'm trying to find where it is. Thanks :)
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<nij>
cage_: There's no .xsession-errors in my machine. Have tried `sudo find / -type f -name "*xsession-errors*"`. There's another Xorg log in ~/.local/share, but it doesn't say anything about stumpwm.
<nij>
I guess if stumpwm developers didn't force it to log, then nothing is logged? Can I tune sbcl so that any conditions got logged?
<cage_>
nij, strange, i have this file in my home and it is full of lisp errors
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<cage_>
i do not know if this depends from the way my xserver is configured thoug
<cage_>
do you have a .xsession file in your home?
<VincentVega>
Hi! Is there any library out there that, given a description of a graph (like a bar graph, or a function), would produce instructions to draw that graph? Basically I am looking for a graphical-backend-agnostic plotting library - I want to do the rendering part myself. Hopefully, it would be fully CL, but if not, please share as well : )
<cage_>
VincentVega, what about generating an svg, postscript or why not? even an xfig file?
<beach>
cage_: That doesn't sound like what is asked for, but what do I know.
<cage_>
sorry
<VincentVega>
cage_: I need it in real time, so, hopefully, I won't have to be reading anything from disk or calling an external executable. By "instructions" I meant really any description, I don't mind svg or anything.
<_death>
take the primitive drawing forms and (defmacro emit (form) `(push ',form *instructions*)) (defun get-instructions () (reverse *instructions*))
<VincentVega>
_death: Not sure I am following you - but the problem at this point for me is to find something that can produce the instructions / drawing data, not the conversion part (yet).
<VincentVega>
BTW something that can do this incrementally would be a huge plus
<VincentVega>
alanz: dot is not general enough for my purposes. I am looking for something that can do all kinds of plots (sorry, my use of "graph" was a bit ambiguous)
<VincentVega>
alanz: Hmm, I wonder if it can function as a daemon. Not crazy about JS, but I will take a look, thanks!
<alanz>
well, if it has a a description language underneath it might work.
<jdz>
VincentVega: I might also be missing something, but it seems to me that CLIM output-records are such things. Output captured on an output-recording-stream may be replayed somewhere else.
<jdz>
So if there is a library that draws stuff using CLIM, you'd get your drawing instructions.
<VincentVega>
Anyone had any experience with scigraph (comes with McClim)?
<VincentVega>
alanz: I would really prefer this to be a fully CL solution, at worst running as a binary but not even that
<nij>
cage_ i only have `.Xauthority` in my home
<alanz>
ok, no problem
<nij>
do you use stumpwm as well?
<cage_>
nij, yes
<cage_>
i have a simple .xsession file that calls the stumpwm executable
<VincentVega>
jdz: Sounds interesting. I am not going to be using Clim for this though, thanks for the idea though!
<nij>
I have .xinitrc for that. And I `startx` in tty.
<_death>
VincentVega: I suggested a way to make a library that draws into a library that produces instructions.. a kind of TRACE-like facility
<nij>
How do you invoke X, cage_?
<VincentVega>
_death: ah, I see, alright.
<cage_>
nij this is fun i have an empty .xinitrc file :)
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<cage_>
nij i use XDM to start the xserver
<nij>
You might be using other methods..
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<nij>
right!
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<nij>
I see. Then that's indeed my problem with X configuration. Not about #lisp then.
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<nij>
Before fixing that, I'd just use a slynk server to debug. Thank you for your info cage_ :D!
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<cage_>
nij, you're welcome!
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<dieggsy>
is there a non-destructive replace ?
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<dieggsy>
currently just doing a copy-seq
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<MichaelRaskin>
substitute?
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<Bike>
there is not. i guess you could do something slightly more efficient by making a sequence of the correct length but uninitialized, and replacing into it
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<nij>
Hi! I understand env object depends on the implementation. Does anyone know how env objects are represented in sbcl? In particular, how can I (just for fun) create an env object by hand?
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<MichaelRaskin>
Do you need it persistent or dynamic extent is still fine?
<Bike>
sbcl environments are a struct called "lexenv". If you want to make environments, look at the sb-cltl2 contrib.
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<nij>
MichaelRaskin: I just hope to create a minimal env by hand.. sort of like creating a list like (list 1 2 3).
<dieggsy>
do i always need to defgeneric before defmethod? just defmethod seems to work at the repl, but i wonder if there are downsides
<Bike>
if you defmethod without a previous defgeneric, a defgeneric is implicitly defined. it's fine. there are some downsides, like the point of definition being less obvious to a reader, and the inability to specify some subtleties about the lambda list
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<Bike>
and you can't specify defgeneric options like the argument precedence order or method combination
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<dieggsy>
ah, fair. interesting
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<nij>
With CL, I can never read/write the content of a specific location in the memory like C's pointer, even with CFFI.. is that correct?
<nij>
(setf (cffi:mem-ref (cffi:make-pointer 0) :int) 0) ;; <= Does this really create a C pointer? Or it's just some equivalence (modulo abstraction) in CL?
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<_death>
I'm not sure what you think a C pointer is.. it is usually a simple number (an address) during runtime.. a C compiler also maintains type information that tells it what code to generate to dereference or increment it, for example
<dieggsy>
hmm. so i've got this simple class for a playing card: https://paste.dieggsy.com/2021-04-24T15:49:25 - however, from cl-user, (cards:card-value (cards:card '(11 D))) and (cards:card-value (cards:card '(J D))) return different things
<_death>
in CFFI these pointers are not typed, so cffi:make-pointer just takes the address, and you need to specify the type when you dereference it, for example
<dieggsy>
CARDS::J and J respectively
<dieggsy>
i'm not sure what that's about
<nij>
hmm for example, can I let lisp alter a bit at a specific point in the memory?
<Shinmera>
sure, as you just did with that piece of invalid code there.
<gigamonk`>
diegsy: looks like your code translates 11 to CARDS::J but when you pass it J (which is in whatever package you are in) it just passes it through in the (t v) branch.
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<dieggsy>
gigamonkey: my code should be translating J to 11 (and keeping 11 as is) though, no?
<gigamonkey>
Ah, yes. But you didn't export CARDS::J.
<dieggsy>
so when i call card-value, it should be hitting the (11) branch?
<dieggsy>
I think i'd like it to just return J in both cases
<dieggsy>
....but i'm not sure if that makes any sense
<gigamonkey>
What you said before was equivalent to (cards:card-value (cards:card '(CL-USER:::J CL-USER::D)))
<dieggsy>
gigamonkey: oh, is it not even hitting the ((J) 11) branch because it's trying to compare CL-USER::J to CARDS::J ? and then just storing it as the symbol CL-USER::J
<gigamonkey>
Yup.
<dieggsy>
oof
<dieggsy>
Uhhhhhhh
<theothornhill>
dieggsy: I pasted everything into repl without declaring packages, and it returns J for each case
<dieggsy>
theothornhill: yep, because the package is the bit i'm interested in and causing the behavior lol
<dieggsy>
well, my misunderstading of them is causing the behavior
<theothornhill>
Hehe, yeah
<gigamonkey>
dieggsy: this is a case where the stylish thing might be to use keyword symbols.
<theothornhill>
(on an unrelated note - that is a pretty font - which one?)
<gigamonkey>
:J, etc. rather than CARDS::J
<dieggsy>
gigamonkey: ah, because they're part of the :keyword package and like, auto qualified or some such
<dieggsy>
?
<gigamonkey>
not sure what auto qualified means but yeah, basically you are refering to them by explicit package but it's concise because the package name is empty.
<dieggsy>
gigamonkey: just to be clear, that really is the only simple workaround here, right? since i'm working with packages there *is no* notion of "just" J, it's going to be either CL-USER:J or CARDS:J
<gigamonkey>
It also denotes "this is just a symbol being used for it's name"
<gigamonkey>
That's right.
<_death>
dieggsy: you can also export J, so that when you use-package :cards or import it you don't need to qualify it
<gigamonkey>
(Except :: instead of : unless you export J from one of those packages.)
<dieggsy>
gigamonkey: thanks! coming back to lisp for a job after a long time in scheme heh.
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<dieggsy>
theothornhill: title is Fira Sans, code is Iosevka
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<charles`>
for .asd files, What are the trade offs of making an asdf package then doing defsystem vs using asdf-user package
<pseudonymous>
This is probably obvious, but when using parenscript,`(ps (@ a b c))` compiles to `at(a, b, c)` for me, not `a.b.c` as advertised. Same kind of issue when attempting to use chain. Any ideas why ?
<Shinmera>
charles`: ASDF style recommends not defining a package.
<Bike>
pseudonymous: maybe you're using some-other-package:@ instead of ps:@
<charles`>
Shinmera so asdf-user it is. I found your twitch channel today
<Shinmera>
Cool. I don't stream coding very often though
<pseudonymous>
Bike: Oh.. Auch. And spot-on. I have had some troubles loading my package when using use-package for various libraries so I've instead defined local package nicknames for all. And of course I need to respect that nickname even inside the ps macro. Thanks :)
<Bike>
no problem
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<ebrasca>
What is the best method to profile common lisp code?
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<srandon111>
anybody lisping on netbsd?
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<White_Flame>
ebrasca: use a built-in profiler?
<White_Flame>
from the implementation
<ebrasca>
I am not sure how the mezzano profiler does work.
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<ebrasca>
OK reading the code I found "Convert a profile into an almost human-readable format"
<ebrasca>
White_Flame: Thanks!
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
Hello all, is hunchentoot still king for making very simple web servers? I just need to make a trivial program that allows multiple people on my office VPN to fill some fields and save to database.
<drmeister>
ebrasca: in clasp we used dtrace on macOS and generate flame graphs.
<drmeister>
Use not used
<ebrasca>
Pixel_Outlaw: I like hunchentoot , but I only play with it.
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<charles`>
Pixel_Outlaw: I would say yes, for sure if you are keeping it simple. It is very cool that you are using Lisp for your office.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Thanks, you'd not believe how hard it is go get 30 people to pick an meeting time over email. You get looooooong email chains. I'd hoped to present a calendar with pickable time slots so everyone just picks their availability and BOOM we save a 20 responce email chain.
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<Pixel_Outlaw>
Also, we do COVID temperature reports daily and in theroy this could collect that and get it off to HR for their records.
<Pixel_Outlaw>
Right now, they all walk by poor Monica's office and verbally report so she can fill a spreadsheet. :P
<MichaelRaskin>
Hunchentoot is surely still fine
<MichaelRaskin>
Not sure if any of the newer options are better, but you probably don't care about approximately anything (performance? features? who cares for 50 users)
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<ebrasca>
drmeister: Thaks for the implementation idea , I did find a way to get a flame graph and how to visualize it.