<beach>
True, but that use case I am willing to bet is not as frequent.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I'm not sure
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I use tools like emacs' macrostep expander quite a bit when I'm trying to figure out what a macro does
<beach>
Perhaps I am generalizing too much, but I almost never look at the result of a macro expansion.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah, I suspect this is a workflow difference
<beach>
I see macros the say I see function, i.e., as abstractions. Only when I write the macro itself would I be interested in how it expands.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
When I decide that a macro was a bad idea, I usually MACROEXPAND-1 and replace the source with the expansion
<fiddlerwoaroof>
then fix it
<beach>
This is one reason why I made a rule that SICL macros should do a lot of syntax checking, so that conditions would be shown in terms of the macro call, rather than in terms of its expansion.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I think if you continue down that route, you end up writing macros that expand to CLOS objects
<beach>
Not sure what you mean by "CLOS object", but if you mean "standard object" then that would be some very useless macros, since those are self-evaluating.
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<beach>
... unless you implementation uses standard objects for conses and symbols, of course.
<sm2n>
beach, correct me if I'm wrong, but that kind of syntax checking doesn't compose too well
<beach>
sm2n: Can you elaborate on that?
<sm2n>
i.e if I have a macro that expands into a macro, and the second macro has malformed syntax, the thrown error won't be in terms of the code I wrote
<sm2n>
contrapunctus, '6 is expanded by the reader to (quote 6)
<sm2n>
and (+ . (quote 6) is exactly (+ quote 6), which has quote bound lexically to 5 by the let
<sm2n>
so it evaluates to 11
<beach>
sm2n: Well, if the macro is meant to be used as an abstraction, it is usually clear what the different arguments stand for, so the syntax of those can then be checked. Perhaps not fully, but I am guessing a lot better than what is typically done.
<contrapunctus>
sm2n: oh lol. Thanks.
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<sm2n>
beach, I'm not sure how what you are saying applies to my scenario
<beach>
That may be because I probably didn't quite understand it.
<sm2n>
(defmacro bar (a b) ...) (defmacro foo () (bar baz)) (foo)
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<sm2n>
no matter how much syntax checking you have in bar, the error thrown won't be in (foo), because macroexpansion destroys that context
<fiddlerwoaroof>
foo can't give a useful error message in terms of bar's input syntax, right?
<sm2n>
yeah
<beach>
sm2n: You are talking about errors signaled (not "thrown") at run time?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
sorry, opposite, bar can't ... in terms of foo's ...
<sm2n>
macroexpansion time, sorry I'm being loose with the terminology
<sm2n>
(foo) will fail at macroexpansion time because (bar baz) is invalid syntax
<beach>
Ah, yes, I see. That's the reason for another SICL rule, namely to report errors in terms of source expressions in context.
<sm2n>
how do you accomplish that in this case?
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<beach>
But your scenario is definitely not the one I was thinking of. In this case, my scenario would be the time when the macro FOO was written.
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<sm2n>
I don't really think it's much of an issue because CL isn't conventionally written with deeply nested macros from what I can tell
<beach>
There would be some highlight of the (BAR BAZ) expression with an indication that the number of arguments is wrong.
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<beach>
sm2n: That's probably true.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Racket's macroexpander is basically designed to solve this problem
<sm2n>
I brought this up because this was the motivation for the racket people to move to syntax objects as the result of macroexpansion, which is close to what fiddlerwoaroof was implying by macroexpanding into CLOS objects
<fiddlerwoaroof>
yeah
<fiddlerwoaroof>
If you have mid-level macros that expand to standard objects, and high-level macros that expand the standard objects to conses, you can preserve all sorts of metadata
<sm2n>
but that's because their whole thing is lots of deeply nested macros
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Like types to use for static type checking
<beach>
fiddlerwoaroof: I think I see what you mean now. Not that the expansion itself is a standard object, but something like (FOO <standard-object>). Yes?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah
<beach>
That's an interesting idea.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Or, (foo (bar)) and then bar expands to (foo #<standard-object>), which foo expands itself
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Which can enable relatively safe code-walking without implementation support
<beach>
Yes, I see. I need to give this idea some more thought.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I think reading your paper on SICL loop was the first time I thought of this idea
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<beach>
Because the clauses are represented as standard objects?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah
<beach>
I can see that, yes.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
So, (expand-loop #<for-as-clause> #<termination-test>)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Would be the last layer of expansion
<beach>
Sure, yes.
<no-defun-allowed>
I think I was approaching something like that this morning to simplify code generation for a new project. It would use vectorised loads, stores and comparison operators, but my compiler would generate something like (load #<some policy representation> vector n), which would then be expanded using a generic function that the client would specialize.
<beach>
I never thought about generalizing it to more mundane macros though. Food for thought. Thanks!
<beach>
no-defun-allowed: Interesting.
<beach>
Now I have something to contemplate today during breaks and such.
<no-defun-allowed>
It's still very fuzzy though, and I've only written down a summary of the protocol for the rest of the project so far.
<moon-child>
(aside: the above discussion of macros and abstraction makes me think that sigils are superior to namespaces. Imagine we use & for function values, % for macros and builtins, and $ for variables. Then the 'quote' symbol used by the ' reader macro cannot possibly collide with a local variable which is also named quote)
<no-defun-allowed>
(The end goal is to make my regular expression compiler more modular, and allow the client to generate specialised scanning code, based on CPU features and/or any specific knowledge of the text to match.)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I tried printing one out once to see why CL-PPCRE was taking so long to match something like "foo" <foo@bar.com>
<fiddlerwoaroof>
The string version of the regex was like five screens long
<beach>
fiddlerwoaroof: In Cleavir, we get some of the benefits of using standard objects in macros, in that the compiler manipulates CSTs rather than expressions, and after macro expansion, it reconstructs a CST from the original one and the expression returned by the macro expander.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah
<fiddlerwoaroof>
It's occasionally seemed to me that the distinction between a compiler and a macroexpander is sort of arbitrary
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
They're both programs that take a datastructure that represents a program in one way and turn it into a datastructure that represents the same program in a different way.
<Nilby>
If I'm remembering correctly I think agnostic-lizard uses a technique something like that, wrapping interim macro expansion in objects.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
One interest I've had is trying to pull some of the traditional compiler stuff into the macroexpansion phase, because that phase has always seemed easier to think about (to me)
<beach>
Yeah, that's a good idea, provided that errors and warnings can still be meaningful to the programmer.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Nilby: I believe I remember seeing something like that in the presentation on that tool
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
no-defun-allowed: can you re implementation efficiently merge two matchers?
<no-defun-allowed>
Would you mind defining "merging"?
<no-defun-allowed>
I use the derivative method, so I can do intersections on regular expressions.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Basically, I've had this sort of problem before: I have N regex-action pairs (think awk-style programs, or HTTP routing) and I want to pick an action doing as little work matching as possible
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I think the derivative-style matching would work for this, now that I think about it
<no-defun-allowed>
After testing, I can only conclude that submatching here is painfully broken.
* no-defun-allowed
sighs and goes to plan another method for submatching.
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<contrapunctus>
Would you folks recommend using Clostrum for sandboxing Lisp programs? Or is there another way? It seems like a complicated problem.
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<Shinmera>
the only way is to either restrict the programs to the point of being useless, or running another process.
<Shinmera>
or actually another OS, probably.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
In theory, you could spawn another process and use the cgroups APIs to sandbox it
<fiddlerwoaroof>
But what's possible here is entirely dependent on your threat model
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<beach>
contrapunctus: It is not quite as simple as that. Let me explain...
<contrapunctus>
fiddlerwoaroof: to be specific, I don't want the program to (unless the user permits them) make any network requests or access the filesystem outside of its private storage. (There's also some resource limiting.)
<beach>
contrapunctus: To get the benefits of Clostrum, you need to be able to evaluate expressions "relative to" a Clostrum environment, so you need a specific evaluator.
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<beach>
contrapunctus: We have such an evaluator (obviously), but things are not set up for general use. Currently, it is used only in SICL bootstrapping.
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<beach>
contrapunctus: The existing evaluator turns a source file into a CST (using Eclector), and then the CST into an AST (using Cleavir) and then it uses the AST evaluator of SICL that does the job.
<beach>
One day, I may turn these tools into something generally usable, but I don't have the time to do that now. Perhaps someone else would be interested in such a project.
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<no-defun-allowed>
As with most of the engine, I have no idea what I did exactly, but submatching appears to work properly now.
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<contrapunctus>
beach: I see. I feel quite sad when I think of how, on one hand, it's desirable to have programs in e.g. documents, and yet the state of sandboxing and resource limiting leaves much to be desired.
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<beach>
contrapunctus: I understand. I wish someone would take on the project I suggested. What you would like to see is something many people seem to want.
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<ikrabbe>
Good morning everyone
<no-defun-allowed>
Good morning ikrabbe!
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<ikrabbe>
I often try to write macros that call functions from their arguments: (defmacro mac (x) `(,x y))
<ikrabbe>
I can guard this call with fboundp of course (defmacro mac (x) `(if (fboundp ',x) (,x y))
<ikrabbe>
) but this only works for defun'ed objects, not for (labels ((x () )))) (does it work for (lambdas?))
<ikrabbe>
Is their any way to check if ,x is a function defined by labels?
<lotuseater>
or try with APPLY/FUNCALL
<no-defun-allowed>
In the case of the MAC you wrote, the implementation will usually signal a WARNING at compile-time if the function is not bound, so you shouldn't have to worry about it.
<no-defun-allowed>
Though I wonder if there is something you can do with the CLtL2 environment introspection extension which many implementations provide (given that FBOUNDP does not take an environment argument, but you can get an environment with that information from a macro).
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<ikrabbe>
I wonder that there is obviously no way to do it.
<ikrabbe>
though possibly through environment introspection
<no-defun-allowed>
ikrabbe: This implementation of MAC generates (redundant) warnings for unbound function names: https://plaster.tymoon.eu/view/2381
<no-defun-allowed>
That might only work on SBCL, but I found a trivial-cltl2 system on Quicklisp which should be more portable.
<edgar-rft>
A macro-lambda-list has an optional &environment parameter to look-up lexically bound functtions (flet, labels, etc.) but I have no clue how that works.
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<ikrabbe>
no-defun-allowed: What I actually miss is a branch for cond, when I parse such arguments: (say "Good morning" (user 10))
<ikrabbe>
(defmacro say (&rest x) (mapcar (lambda (o) (typecase o (sequence (if t `(,(car o) ,@(cdr o))) (print o)) (t (print o)))) x))
<ikrabbe>
This is an error of course, as "Good morning" is a sequence also. I need a cond statement if (car o) is callable.
<no-defun-allowed>
Would you not want to test for the LIST type instead of SEQUENCE? And then I suppose (equal `(,(car o) ,@(cdr o)) o)
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<ikrabbe>
no-defun-allowed: list or sequence, the problem of the sequence can easily be overcome by deciding on strings before. My problem is still the missing condition.
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<edgar-rft>
It was not meant as a negative critic, I only wanted to know if there is some reason that I can't see from the example code. Writing macros needs to care a lot more about corner cases than writing functions, as you already found out youself :-)
<no-defun-allowed>
Does it? You could write (defun say (&rest r) (mapcar #'print r)) to get (say "Good morning" (user 10)) to print "Good morning" then the result of (user 10)
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<ikrabbe>
no-defun-allowed: actually print is just the test application. Depending on the situation I want (user 10) to be evaluated later. For the terminal it might be (print (user 10)), or in clim it could be (write-string (user 10)) or (present (user 10) 'username)
<ikrabbe>
Here you can see the the present call is affected by the object.
<ikrabbe>
when i do (defun say (&rest r)) the evaluation of (user 10) will likely be a string, but I lost the information that it is a user
<lotuseater>
so you could use a struct or class for users :)
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<mmontone>
Hello. Does anyone know if there's a way of getting the list of packages loaded by a particular ASDF system?
<ikrabbe>
lotuseater: I could do many things, but I want to decide what to do, when I know anything about the output medium. When I write such a say statement in a html context, I might want to link to a user account... and user is just a simple example of what is possible
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<Xach>
mmontone: packages or systems?
<lotuseater>
ok
<mmontone>
@xach I need the packages loaded by a particular ASDF system.
<Xach>
mmontone: i don't believe there is any easy way. a system may cause other systems to load that define more and more packages that aren't directly loaded by that system.
<mmontone>
I know it is probably not possible.
<Xach>
mmontone: but you could look at interceding at certain points and comparing snapshots of (list-all-packages)
<mmontone>
I thought perhaps there was some trick, like parsing ASDF system and files, or perhaps from swank information, but I don't think there's something. And I need it to be fast and lightweight, I don't want to trigger some file system processing or something like that, because I'm trying to implement an on-line documentation tool.
<Xach>
mmontone: like looking through sources for defsystem forms?
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<mmontone>
Yes. But if there's better than that, I'd like to know :)
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<mmontone>
But I don't think so ...
<Xach>
mmontone: i don't think there is any way aside from loading the asdf system and looking at the state of the package system.
<Xach>
you could do that with a CL that has a hook to tell you when a new package is made.
<Xach>
or any number of other hacks
<mmontone>
I'm working with already loaded ASDF systems.
<mmontone>
Yes..probably not possible. I was just asking just in case. Thanks for the input Xach.
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<jcowan>
*macroexpand-hook* is presumably the way to look for defsystems dynamically, but
<Xach>
mmontone: another option is to look at the xref data for packages, and see if the source file is in a particular known system
<Xach>
make-package complicates things
<mmontone>
yes, that would be close. I could approach it like that ...
<jcowan>
s/, but//
<mmontone>
jcowan: I don't understand what you mean about *macroexpand-hook*
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<mmontone>
I'm using Emacs Info mode to display Common Lisp documentation on the fly.
<mmontone>
I'm having some fun with this. There are nice possibilities.
<lotuseater>
oh cool
<mmontone>
Occurred to me when I was using slime completion to see what some package provided, and I couldn't see much from there, docstrings, etc. So I thought that was not the right way, there could be better ...
<lotuseater>
i set *MACROEXPAND-HOOK* to NIL, just for the fun and look what it will say
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<drl>
Why is this no longer working: (let ((target-email-address (concatenate 'string "to=" (getf record :e-mail))))
<_death>
maybe drl "switched" from sb-ext to uiop, thinking they have the same interface
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<drl>
Bike, thanks. I'll check that out.
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<drl>
_death, no, I didn't switch from sb-ext to uiop.
<phoe>
(uiop:run-program "..." (list ...)) isn't a valid call though
<phoe>
weird stuff if it worked
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<drl>
Bike, what you said I might mean works. Thank you very much.
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<drl>
I don't remember making any changes, but maybe I did.
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<rumbler31_>
hey all, trying out ql:bundle-systems. I am trying to make a reproducible build of a local-project, and I've managed to make a bundle of its dependencies (but I can't seem to include the local-project itself). If I were to load the bundle.lisp, how do I then load the local-project without loading quicklisp?
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<jackdaniel>
rumbler31_: this function has a keyword argument include-local-projects
<rumbler31_>
I see that now hehe
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<rumbler31_>
its still complaining that it can't find my local project
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<rumbler31_>
seems like a local-projects folder is being created in the bundle but the original local-project filde ris not being moved in. I'll see if I can debug that
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<rumbler31_>
I swear I did this exact same thing a moment ago but now its working for some reason
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<rumbler31_>
copying all of local projects seems excessive but I suppose the answer to that would be "patches welcome"
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<Xach>
rumbler31_: there isn't an automatic way, but you could copy your local project into the bundle's local-projects directory.
<Xach>
that is loaded automatically but does not involve quicklisp
<rumbler31_>
I just did that and things seem to work. thanks!
<Xach>
rumbler31_: glad to see a bundle user!
<rumbler31_>
its been a while. used it at my last company to check in a source tree that my coworkers could rebuild with make. its been years so I'm standing that up again from whole cloth
<rumbler31_>
but the bundle thing is the hardest work for sure haha
<rumbler31_>
so thanks for that
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<rumbler31_>
does prefixing an as-of-yet-uninterned-sybol with #: prevent it from being interned?
<Bike>
#:foo is read as a new symbol that is not interned in any package.
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<jcowan>
rumbler31_: So if foo already exists, the new #:foo is distinct from it in the sense of eql.
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<rumbler31_>
hmm ok
<rumbler31_>
I'm kinda dumb right now. why is it a good practice to use that prefix when specifying, say, quicklisp packages to load. And also, whats the preferred library for doing things like copying files? UIOP?
<rumbler31_>
and by the way thanks everyone for your help
<jdz>
I use strings with Quicklisp.
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<semz>
Because it won't intern random symbols into your current package.
<jdz>
But it basically boils down to interning arbitrary symbols in whatever package the user currently happens to be.
<beach>
rumbler31_: More important than the random interning is that you send a clear signal to the person reading your code, that the package of the symbol is of no importance, and the only important thing is the name.
<remexre>
If I want to define the same :around on a whole group of generic functions, what's the right way to do this? is there some mop trick, or am I better off just using macros
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<beach>
A method can be present on at most one generic function, so you have to make distinct methods.
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<remexre>
if I adjust my wording to, "define an :around on any generic function (that opts into it, perhaps with a special method combination?)" is that more possible?
<beach>
I mean, you can certainly do all this programmatically. After all, the DEFMETHOD form expands to some calls to functions.
<beach>
But it becomes messy because of MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
It's interesting how all these split functions implement the keyword argument that limits the number of items in the return value differently
<fiddlerwoaroof>
the count counts the number of times the string is split, so the number of resulting elements is count+1
<fiddlerwoaroof>
With the last element being "everything left"
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<cage_>
i agree is interesting
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<rumbler31_>
cage_: there is a discord, and I'm sure there's a slack
<rumbler31_>
and a few subreddits
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
If there's a slack, I've never heard of one
<fiddlerwoaroof>
There's a room on matrix too
<rumbler31_>
anyone experienced that uiop:copy-files actually moves files instead?
<rumbler31_>
or rather doesn't actually copy.. but just deletes?
<remexre>
is the point of boole that it might be calling out to like, a hardware blitter or something?
<cage_>
rumbler31_, my very personal beliefs make me stay away from proprietary/surveillance platform, of course i hav eno problem if other find this platform useful but just they are not for me
<cage_>
thanks by the way! :)
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<Nilby>
remexre: Yes, but it can have other uses. For exmaple CLX uses the bool-* symbols as the drawing function in the graphics context.
<Nilby>
One can do other interesting things with boole, like database bitmap index operations.
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<Xach>
remexre: there is an interesting post on this topic
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<rumbler31_>
i'm spending an inordinant amount of time getting common lisp to make a new directory and copy 3 files into it. sorry to gripe
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<Nilby>
One simple way to see what's actually happening, is to trace the systems calls using something like strace on linux or truss on bsd, so you can see what actual file system call might be failing.
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<rumbler31_>
Nilby: So there's a lot of lstatting of the right paths, I don't understand enough to find the syscalls for copying files
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<Josh_2>
just found a program breaking bug that was because I missed the : on my :initarg definition
<Josh_2>
oof
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<rumbler31_>
So uiop:copy-file gets the right args
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<rumbler31_>
it goes all the way down to two with-open-file macros and just copies the a buffer at a time into the output stream, and if
<rumbler31_>
I knew it was something stupid I did
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<rumbler31_>
derp tried to make a bundle that didn't include quicklisp that includes a function to call quicklisp bundle.... dummy <-----
<rumbler31_>
hmm I wonder how to fix that
<rumbler31_>
I want to make a bundle of a project, I guess none of the functions I wrote depend on the original package
<rumbler31_>
seems kinda hacky to just make another package that assumes things about another, like file paths and project names
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<rumbler31_>
or I should use the term system
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<Nilby>
Since Quicklisp can't really be an asdf or quicklisp dependency, then unless you always install it as part of your own installation, things have to check for it manually before using it.
<Nilby>
My stuff can run with or without quicklisp, so I do a #+quicklisp in some places.
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<Bike>
quicklisp is an asdf system, isn't it?
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<Nilby>
Yes, but I'm pretty sure one might get different results loading it in it's recommended way, vs. just asdf loading it.
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<monaliza>
Heyo! I've recently learned common lisp and i've read a book about it, I've been kind of indecisive for which other vlafor of lisp i should start using next, because of how many flavours there are. I'm mostly really interested in functional programming, and I'm a real fan of haskell-ish syntax, where it's short, makes sense, and works rather well. I've heard about Racket lisp, Arc lisp, and Scheme,
<monaliza>
and I'm getting mixed signals on which one I should try to extensively dive into first
<moon-child>
monaliza: you are unlikely to get very many responses here, because this channel is specifically about common lisp. That being said: I would avoid arc. Racket and scheme are both nice enough, and you may also want to look at coalton
<monaliza>
Ahh, I see
<monaliza>
My fault for not reading the first word of the topic, I'm very sorry! And, thank you very much!
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<kagevf>
use CL so you have the flexibility to take advantage of other styles when FP isn't a good fit
<kagevf>
also, if you want FP only no matter what, maybe consider clojure ... with the caveat that it's on the jvm
<kagevf>
and a syntax that has departed a bit from Lisp and Scheme
<moon-child>
didn't some schemes also adopt the [] syntax?
<moon-child>
I guess clojure also has {} for--hashtable literals, I think?
<kagevf>
I think you're right, moon-child but IDK for sure
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<no-defun-allowed>
m00natic: IIRC {} and [] in Scheme produce equivalent syntax to (), so you could write (let ([x 1]) x) in Scheme or even [let [[x 1]] x]
<moon-child>
no-defun-allowed: wrong moon :)
<no-defun-allowed>
Oh dear.
<moon-child>
seems chicken does exactly as you say, guile doesn'tlike {}, and s7 doesn't like either
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<sm2n>
racket considers [] and () equivalent
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<edgar-rft>
the beatiful thing with Scheme is that there are so many *different* syntax schemes you can choose from
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<kagevf>
in CL could you write a reader macro to do the same thing? to make [] and {} act like ()?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
yeah, they even exist
<kagevf>
ok, that's what I thought ... do they exist as part of the standard, or in a library?