<dim>
yeah, it still is a game of whack-a-mole and I'm not there yet
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<dim>
okay, and now it fails for yet another reason
<dim>
no CL during vacations for me it seems :/
<dim>
for the very curious: Error while trying to load definition for system jna from pathname jar:file:///usr/local/Cellar/abcl/1.8.0/libexec/abcl-contrib.jar!/mvn/jna.asd:
<dim>
that's during Retry loading FASL for #<ASDF/LISP-ACTION:CL-SOURCE-FILE "cl-containers/with-utilities" "dev" "utilities-integration">.
<dim>
(and the previous offender that required CFFI was cl+ssl, which is needed for pgloader by direct dependencies qmynd, drakma, sqlite, mssql, and quri)
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<nij>
fiddlerwoaroof: I watched the talk you mentioned yesterday. Thanks :)
<nij>
And I understand why guix/nix doesn't "really" solve the problem.
<nij>
I wonder if in guix we can make a software depends on multiple versions of a dependency, and call each function with name and the version they belong to.
<Xach>
dim: sometimes cffi is in defsystem-depends-on which complicates things a little
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<dim>
Xach: I managed to get a list of systems to avoid in :depends-on (using #-abcl) so that I could load pgloader in there, so that's good
<dim>
not good enough to load pgloader, though, so, no there yet, and running out of patience and time... gonna play with the kids instead
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<nij>
Hi :) Can I fetch my github cl system from ql:quickload? Or I have to `git clone` it manually to my ~/quicklisp?
<Xach>
nij: you must run git clone manually.
<Xach>
or, you could do it automatically, if you write the code to automate it!
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<phoe>
nij: I think roswell automates that
<phoe>
or you could use e.g. (ql:quickload :legit) to write a function that does that for you
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<jmercouris>
nij: or you could add your system to ultra lisp and then add the ultra lisp dist to your QL
<jmercouris>
Or you could use clpm
<jmercouris>
Or you could use qlot
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<jcowan>
beach: I worked out an answer to `read` allocating multiple empty strings. Stash the reader macro for " and replace it with one that peeks to see if the next character is also quote. If so, read the quote and return a unique empty string; if not, call the stashed macro. The only thing this breaks is if you try to use eq(l) on an empty string.
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<beach>
That's an interesting solution.
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<nij>
clpm could accidentally eat my files xD
<nij>
lemme take a look at roswell
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<dbotton>
does anyone know of a "dictionary" or "thesaurus" for CL terms?
<Bike>
other than the clhs glossary? not that i can think of
<dbotton>
so let's say I wanted to say "member function" it would give the equivalent clos term
<dbotton>
ok
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<Bike>
oh, like for other kinds of jargon. yeah, i don't know anything like that. also i'm not sure there's any real equivalent to member functions?
<dbotton>
well it could give the aprox version or explain why not
<Bike>
because i already knew iolib depended on libfixposix, and "lfp" is then an obvious initialism
<nij>
cool. lemme try
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<Bike>
maybe it owuld be possible for iolib to be a little clearer about it, though
<nij>
Yes, it works, and gives me another error -
<nij>
Unable to load foreign library (LIBFIXPOSIX). Error opening shared object "libfixposix.so": libfixposix.so: cannot open shared object file: No such file or directory.
<nij>
I guess I'd have to teach sbcl (or cffi?) where to find the dynamical lib.
<Bike>
sbcl literally just calls dlopen
<Bike>
oh, if you just installed it you might need to call ldconfig or something
<nij>
I'm afraid it's more complicated on guix..
<Bike>
so i've heard. but what i mean is that it's the normal posix tools that are failing to work, rather than anything in lisp.
<nij>
Since the dynamic libraries aren't installed in the usual global path.
<jasom>
(integer-length most-positive-fixnum) => 62, so given that there are negative fixnums, looks like 63
<flip214>
just wanted to paste that as well
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<phoe>
(integer-length most-negative-fixnum) ;=> 62 too
<phoe>
so looks like 1 bit tag, 1 bit sign, 62 bits left for digits
<phoe>
wait, no
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<phoe>
1 bit tag, 62 bits encode the number in two's complement...
* phoe
thinks
<Xach>
it's an ancient trick to squeeze an extra bit
<jasom>
1 bit tag, 63 bits encode the number in twos complement; (integer-length #xff) => 8, but clearly if you can go up to 255 with signed values it's 9 bits twos complement
<flip214>
phoe: no, you were right first time... 1 tag, 1 sign, 62 significant for both positive and negative
<phoe>
yes
<flip214>
the ol' compression trick - just remember where the 1 bits are, the 0 bits take care of themselves. applied recursively you end up with "1", which encompasses every possible meaning at once!
<flip214>
(and not 42, as some heretics might make you believe)
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<splittist>
"Ran 14; Passed 14; Failed 0". Yay for me.
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<_death>
for proper TDD brag you need to show that each failed first, and that the previous ones succeeded
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<Shinmera>
phoe: I'm trying, but it appears there is nothing to check out.
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<phoe>
Shinmera: hold on, it's still counting how many tests there are to run
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<phoe>
oh right, there are Heap exhausted, game over. tests to run
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<phoe>
oops
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<Shinmera>
Anyway, in case it wasn't obvious, there are 2 million tests for UAX9, but they're all auto-generated from unicod conformance data. :)
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<Shinmera>
And those in turn I'm sure are generated as well.
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<aeth>
put this in a macro and win the test war... (defun generate-tests (number-of-tests) (list* '5am:test 'lots-of-tests "Win the war of having the most tests" (loop :for i :from 0 :below number-of-tests :collect `(5am:is (= ,i ,i)))))
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<aeth>
(generate-tests 2000000) ; oops, ran out of memory in SBCL... looks like it needs to be optimized more
<aeth>
I guess I could also just increase the heap size!
<phoe>
that's kinda what I tried
<phoe>
oh! I didn't try heap size expansion
* phoe
quickly makes a 500G swap file
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<Shinmera>
the difference is that the uax tests are actually meaningful.
<phoe>
yes
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<_death>
aeth: that looks like a single (failing :) test to me
<aeth>
To be fair, there is a small chance that this will catch an implementation bug.
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<Shinmera>
Hmm. If my current jam project wasn't aimed to be commercial I'd actually join for once.
<Shinmera>
Oh well!
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<Josh_2>
idk how to make a game so im out
<Shinmera>
you write the code
<Shinmera>
and then the thing moves
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<contrapunctus>
I've been looking into making a game for the last three days, but I'm new to both game dev and Common Lisp :\ (and not a very experienced programmer either)
<Shinmera>
sometimes the thing only moves in your mind, but it's still a game!
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<mfiano>
The point of the jam is not to make a game, oddly enough.
<Shinmera>
I made games in Fortran when I was 5, it's not hard to make /a/ game. It's hard to make a game with high production values and comparable to commercial games you might be envisioning.
<mfiano>
The idea is to practice. Even if you don't finish something, it is still desirable to submit it, as it gives you something to look back on to get a sense of your progression, and it also gives other people a base on which to work on, or ideas for their own future submissions.
<Shinmera>
Either way the point is you can make a game, just lower your expectations.
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<Xach>
I think like many endeavors it can be daunting to understand how to break down into completable individual pieces that, if you complete enough, results in a complete product/project
<mfiano>
So, you could just take an existing game, from past jams or GitHub etc, modify it, study it to learn how it works, and perhaps get a better idea of gamedev in general and some ideas you'd like to execute in the future.
<Xach>
(Which is part of the magic - when you see something and can instantly figure out how it's done, it is hard to be very delighted...)
<mfiano>
It's quite intimidating to try to make a game as a beginner in a public jam with a time limit. That is not the point at all though...the point is to learn and have fun :)
<mfiano>
Would like to see Xach try sometime :)
<Xach>
The desire to make games led to my interest in computers, but I don't enjoy games nearly as much as I used to :~(
<mfiano>
_death said he might too. I'd like to see longtime lispers that never participated try.
<Xach>
I'd like to try someday anyway though!
<mfiano>
Xach: Same here, I don't like playing games, but it is incredibly interesting to code them.
<Shinmera>
I can offer more assistance with Trial than usual this and next week if someone wants to give it a shot using it.
<_death>
mfiano: I did participate in a lisp game jam once :)
<_death>
mfiano: though I didn't see it on the lispgames wiki
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<mfiano>
_death: Oh I don't recall, just recall that you said you might this time :)
<aeth>
The games I liked the most (especially as a teenager) tended to be massive time sinks, so I just stay away from them entirely. And I don't try games that have patterns like that, especially if you have to log in daily/weekly (quite a few AAA games now), if you have things you need to constantly defend from raids (most survival games), etc.
<aeth>
I only play games that you can just jump in and jump out
<aeth>
So for me personally, it's not that I don't like games anymore, it's that I try not to like games too much anymore.
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<_death>
mfiano: also try (ql:quickload "towers") (towers:game)
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<mfiano>
_death: I see. 2010 was before my time as a host, when I was just a few years into Lisp at that point, and not sure I was doing games.
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<_death>
mfiano: but, right now I'm compiling aseprite.. so it's one step closer to participation
<Xach>
I like visual toys and interactivity, so maybe that would be my way in...
<mfiano>
Xach: go for it!
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<mfiano>
I'd just like to see more COmmon Lispers participate. Too many Lua/Fennel Lisp games :)
<Xach>
boo
<Xach>
500 meg binary or bust
<mfiano>
I've thought about making the first of the bi-annual jams CL only, but then I don't think we'd get anyone but borodust :)
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<Nilby>
I already have 7 unfinished lisp games, and the 3 that I finished were very un-fun, so I'm not sure working on games as an anti-burnout tactic has worked.
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<Nilby>
Presumably results would be better with intrinsic motivation, rather than boredom with other things.
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<_death>
mfiano: I also have some tic-80 w/ ecl thing.. it was some years ago, but maybe someone wants to pick it up
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<mfiano>
Maybe, I have never messed with tic-80 myself
<mfiano>
Nor ecl for that matter
<Xach>
tic-80 is nice. very very short feedback loop.
<Bike>
quick question - i was looking at tic-80 before - it's not an actual virtual machine is it? like it doesn't have a bytecode ISA or something, you can write code in whatever
<_death>
I even added paren highlighting ;)
<mfiano>
Do you have to cherry pick through 1527 commits? :)
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<_death>
Bike: from what I remember it just embedded a js/lua engine
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<Bike>
ok yeah, that's what it looked like. i think i had it in my head that it was an actual VM
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<luis>
Has anyone built a Docker container with ALL THE LISPS?
<_death>
mfiano: I've not kept up with tic-80.. it was just when it was made public (hence only 60 commits in that repo).. it seemed pretty functional back then though
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<luis>
phoe: 5 Lisps is not all the Lisps but it's a rather nice start!
<mfiano>
All the lisps is a lot of lisps
<mfiano>
Forget TIC-80, need the TI-80 too :)
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<Krystof>
do you have a compiler macro to turn constant-printf-string printfs into constant-format-string format controls?
<splittist>
Krystof: no. The forthcoming scanfcl does compile its control string, though.
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<Krystof>
(format t "~:[~3,'0D~;-~2,'0D~]" (minusp x) (abs x)) ; for what it's worth
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* luis
chuckles
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<lotuseater>
i learned today for what SYMBOL-MACROLET not to use :) had often something like (aref e k) in a function with even SETF and thought, oh hm, so use (symbol-macrolet ((e_k '(aref e k))) ...)
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<lotuseater>
but labeling readmacros did it then ^^
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<_death>
it's fine to use that.. except that extraneous quote
<lotuseater>
ah i thought it has to be a symbolic expression
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<lotuseater>
oh cool thanks. sometimes those are really useful
<lotuseater>
but hm, the other thing was, translating an algorithm with three closures and that use same parameter names as declared for lexical scope in the main algorithm ^^ how does FLET handle that?
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<_death>
not sure what you're asking.. this pseudocode looks like it could use some factoring.. I'd start by pulling those functions out
<_death>
that makes it easier to test things in the repl
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<Shinmera>
Or just use one of a bunch of matrix libraries that can already compute eigenvalues
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<lotuseater>
yes it does need refactoring :D
<lotuseater>
Shinmera: that's not the point :)
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<ioa>
Hi everyone, if you're interested in talking about the ELS, SAL9000 made a room for it: #elsconf
<ioa>
Especially the presence of marco heisig (no bouncer? I forgot his nick), easye and phoe would be very much appreciated, as they have all the info. :)
<phoe>
gasp! #els2021 now has competition
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<ioa>
phoe, oh, I didn't know about #els2021, there was a discussion about this years els in the old room els2020, and SAL9000 made elsconf so we don't create a room every year.
<ioa>
*year's
<phoe>
sure, sounds good! let's discuss the channel setup when everyone (including me) is awake tomorrow
<ioa>
sounds good, good night!
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