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<splittist>
lukego: If I'm writing to a spec, or in the last throws of writing (or, at least, working out) a spec, then I find unit(?) tests to be useful. But if I'm 'exploring the design space' (i.e. coding without knowing what I'm doing) then I do find them a boat anchor rather than a sanity check.
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<lukego>
splittist: I think that in this case I wrote some really basic unit tests as scaffolding to get some low-level routines working for the first time. but now I don't need it much because I've written other code that exercises these routines pretty thoroughly and I can just run that to get test coverage.
<lukego>
so it seems like my test suite will just try to exercise lots of relevant code paths and then I'll need to have enough "design by contract" style instrumentation to be able to catch and debug errors when/where they occur
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<jackdaniel>
I call it bravery! ;-)
<jackdaniel>
but tests are a drag (although a very useful one)
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<lukego>
(my case might also be special in that these are routines for importing data in a specific file format and it only takes three and a half seconds to import all such data that actually exists... so I don't really need to be prepared for inputs that aren't included in the test suite)
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<shka_>
hi all
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<attila_lendvai>
is quicklisp automatically hooking into ASDF by default to download any missing systems? if not, is there a simple way to enable that?
<shka_>
attila_lendvai: you are asking because a system does not load or what?
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<jmercouris>
any way to a suppress "WARNING: redefining XYZ"
<jmercouris>
when I know that I am explicitly wishing to redfine something?
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<Xach>
attila_lendvai: it only hooks in when using quickload
<Xach>
that establishes a handler for the system-not-found error
<attila_lendvai>
shka_, i'm changing code (hu.dwim.asdf) and i don't want to regress it, and it's not trivial for me to test it right now.
<attila_lendvai>
Xach, thank you for clarifying it! do you have any plans of adding/supporting a find system hook ala the discussion under one of the :defsystem-depends-on issue?
<Xach>
No plans
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<attila_lendvai>
Xach, the reson is that sometimes it's much more convenient to sideffect the image at one point, and just fire the macinery, as opposed to messing at random different places to (optionally) use quickload when available...
<phoe>
jmercouris: you can try to unbind it first
<attila_lendvai>
Xach, i've written several build.sh scripts now that uses ql (thanks a whole lot BTW!). some of them optionally using ql when available, otherwise relying on the user's config. some others override the user's config and do (quasi-)reproducible builds.
<Xach>
Ok
<jmercouris>
phoe: true
<phoe>
so makunbound for symbols, fmakunbound for functions, setf find-class nil for classes, ...
<jmercouris>
I was hoping for some (declare ...) magic
<jmercouris>
maybe I can write a macro...
<jmercouris>
how about generic functions same as fmakunbound?
<phoe>
GFs are bound in the function namespace, so yes
<jmercouris>
OK
<phoe>
they're functions
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<jmercouris>
hai
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<ldb>
good evening
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<pp>
hi
<pp>
what is best lisp?
<Xach>
pp: common
<ldb>
not common
<pp>
interesting...
<phoe>
maybe the real best lisp is the friends we make along the way
<phoe>
but, anyway!
<phoe>
pp: #lisp is a Common Lisp channel, you could possibly try ##lisp for a channel for all dialects
<pp>
ok!
<pp>
do any of you use scrotwm?
<phoe>
oh
<phoe>
I think I understand now
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<contrapunctus>
Would a native Lisp library for encoding/decoding media formats (e.g. FLAC, PNG, WebM) be of any help to the community? Or is preferable to wrap C libraries?
<Xach>
contrapunctus: opticl does a lot of that.
<Xach>
contrapunctus: i don't know how much is in pure lisp. pure lisp code for everything would be nice.
<aeth>
contrapunctus: it makes it easier to package programs
<aeth>
(when you don't use a C library, I mean)
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<Shinmera>
contrapunctus: FLAC and PNG already have native ones. WebM or any video format? Good fuckin' luck.
<Shinmera>
contrapunctus: I'd like a native decoder for OGG audio, (preferably decoding to UB8 arrays)
<shka_>
video formats are rather complex beasts
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<shka_>
and also have strict performance requirements which does not make life easier
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<contrapunctus>
Xach: I see. opticl doesn't seem to use any foreign libraries.
<contrapunctus>
aeth: I see.
<contrapunctus>
Shinmera: hm...I guess I could try that.
<Shinmera>
But yeah, ultimately the hard part isn't necessarily even the decoding, though that often is hard enough, it's also that theres' very strict performance requirements to be able to decode and play back in real time. Especially audio has very low latency periods.
<shka_>
contrapunctus: maybe something simpler?
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<jackdaniel>
contrapunctus: draft a lispy protocol for video formats in cl and start with a ffi wrapper; then you may take a jab at implementing the same protocol natively
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<daphnis>
what's the normal thing to do when one needs multiple but not all values from a function? i get these style warings about unused variables
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<phoe>
daphnis: only bind what you need
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<Xach>
declare ignore the rest
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<phoe>
(m-v-b (x y z) (values 1 2 3 4 5 6) (frob x y z))
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<jackdaniel>
(m-v-b (a b c) (foo) (declare (ignore b)) (cons a c)
<phoe>
or what jackdaniel said if these values are not in the tail position
<daphnis>
thanks
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<didi>
Ah, nice use of a restart in lparallel: "you didn't started workers, but don't sweat, tell me how many you want and I'll be on my way"
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<shka_>
didi: this is better handled by docstrings
<attila_lendvai>
i can only see two reasons for a native CL code to decode complex media formats: 1) geek value for someone learning the tech, and 2) implementing the algo in a higher level language as a serious attempt to optimize it, or demonstrate a better implementation technique. for anything else? i'd just wrap the reference implementation.
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<shka_>
you can give docstring for the whole package
<didi>
shka_: What?
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<shka_>
didi: it is lisp, if you can define it, you can attach docstring to it
<Shinmera>
attila_lendvai: shipping of C libraries on Linux is a gigantic pain in the ass. debugging problems with them as well.
<shka_>
and yes, this includes defpackage
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<didi>
shka_: Sorry, I unsure what you're talking about.
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<didi>
s/I/I'm
<shka_>
about the (ql:help) proposal
<didi>
oic
<didi>
Well, my instinct was running (ql:help).
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<vydd>
has anyone revived quickdocs?
<attila_lendvai>
Shinmera, hence my use of of the word *complex*. for simple stuff, it can overall splify life, but for anything non-trivial there's no way to keep a CL implementation anywhere near the reference one in quality
<shka_>
attila_lendvai: oh, there is a way, but there is no resources
<attila_lendvai>
shka_, you must be young... :) it's all about resources.
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<shka_>
young? thank you i guess
<shka_>
anyway, yes it is technically possible, but so time and work consuming that in practice it is just impossible
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<jackdaniel>
why can't we start wav file in the background and flip bmp files every 1/30s?
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<shka_>
heh
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<didi>
How do I keep a computation running after I disconnect from a swank server? I can reconnect to it (because of :dont-close t), but my long running computation is stopped after I disconnect.
<aeth>
threads?
<didi>
aeth: Good idea.
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<didi>
Great. And there she goes. Thank you, aeth.
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<Josh_2>
meaning the next variable which references stib-container doesn't work
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<phoe>
let*?
<phoe>
cl:let won't allow you to access previously bound variables, unlike cl:let*
<phoe>
so I expect parenscript's versions to do the same thing
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<kagevf>
Josh_2: I was able to get rid of the number if I removed the extra parentheses you had around the value being assigned to stibContainer .... like this:
<pp2>
I got kicked earlier and i don't know why. I said scrotwm but i meant to ask about stumpwm. I am confused about what happened and sorry if i offended people
<pp2>
stumpwm is a wm for x that uses cl
<phoe>
pp2: woop, sorry about that
<phoe>
let me unban...
<phoe>
OK, should be good now; sorry about that, my fingers are too trigger happy at times
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<phoe>
there is a dedicated #stumpwm that you might want to join
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