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<DHARMAKAYA>
Can any here explain why this would not be the first iteration of the y combinator in lambda calculus? :" λf. (λf. (λx. f (x x))(λx. f (x x))) "
<DHARMAKAYA>
Does the y combinator require an input to reach the first output?
<DHARMAKAYA>
I had thought it was like the omega combinator, in that it doesn't require an input to ouptut
<DHARMAKAYA>
(An external additional input)
<moon-child>
DHARMAKAYA: you immediately shadow the outermost ‘f’ without ever using it, so what's the point of binding it?
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<DHARMAKAYA>
Is this the first iteration output then?: f(f (x x))(λx. f (x x)))
<DHARMAKAYA>
And the next is?: f(f(f (x x))(λx. f (x x))))
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<DHARMAKAYA>
Must be something like that.
<moon-child>
you mean beta reducing the body? Something like this \f.(f((\x.f(xx))(\x.f(xx))))
<DHARMAKAYA>
Right, beta reduction first iteration
<moon-child>
iteration?
<DHARMAKAYA>
The (λx. f (x x) on the right is input as the var x on the left (λx. f (x x), correct?
<moon-child>
yes
<DHARMAKAYA>
Alright, so similar to the omega combinator that it basically outputs itself, but has an extra embedded function level
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<DHARMAKAYA>
So every iteration it is nesting the y combinator within the y combinator, like a fibonacci function or a factorial, etcetera
<DHARMAKAYA>
Thanks.
<DHARMAKAYA>
I guess the first lambda f is a little confusing
<DHARMAKAYA>
Is the "f" inside the function essentially the same as the λf on the left side, although a nested edition?
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<asarch>
Any JSON to XML converter?
<DHARMAKAYA>
I guess for the yc in lambda calculus to be fractal, the λf has to be the same thing as the f inside the function basically
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<DHARMAKAYA>
And by "fixed point combinator", that basically means a function like this: F(x) = x ?
<moon-child>
DHARMAKAYA: given some function f, the fixed point of f as applied to some argument x is the repeated application of f until the result is constant
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<asarch>
Oh :-(
<asarch>
Any good tool to parse JSON then?
<DHARMAKAYA>
Until the result is the input or until it is simply a constant result?
<moon-child>
until it is constant. So for instance, the fixed point of sqrt as applied to 2 (as applied to any real, really) is 1
<moon-child>
because sqrt(sqrt(sqrt(...sqrt(2)))) = 1
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<DHARMAKAYA>
Ah. Interesting
<DHARMAKAYA>
Thanks!
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<DHARMAKAYA>
So, to clarify, does the y combinator in lambda calculus require any external input to evaluate?
<DHARMAKAYA>
Or can it simply be iterated without any external input?
<moon-child>
there is no such thing as evaluation in lambda calculus
<moon-child>
(nor 'iteration')
<DHARMAKAYA>
Well, what is it called when the omega combinator outputs the omega combinator when it "runs"?
<DHARMAKAYA>
Is that an "iteration" or...?
<moon-child>
nothing is output
<moon-child>
nothing runs
<moon-child>
there are simply equivalent forms
<moon-child>
so for instance, I can prove that p and (\x.x)p are equivalent. But p isn't a 'reduced' or 'evaluated' version of (\x.x)p
<DHARMAKAYA>
When a computer processes it, it is going to do so in sequential passes
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<moon-child>
there is an algorithm called beta reduction which can reduce the complexity of lambda calculus expressions. Sometimes. Sometimes not. For instance, (\x.xx)(\x.xx)
<DHARMAKAYA>
If I wrote a program to output successive nestings of the y combinator lambda calculus through beta reduction, it would do each pass in sequence
<DHARMAKAYA>
What is each "iteration" of beta reduction called?
<DHARMAKAYA>
A single pass, for instance
<moon-child>
I don't know of a name. You might call it _a_ beta reduction, or the result of a beta reduction
<asarch>
JSON to list?
<DHARMAKAYA>
Ah. Thanks for explaining that maths style functional programming speak
<DHARMAKAYA>
So the first full beta reduction pass on the y combinator outputs what? (in lambda calculus notation)
<DHARMAKAYA>
Or "expands to" what?
<moon-child>
\f.(f((\x.f(xx))(\x.f(xx))))
<DHARMAKAYA>
Thanks! I assume \ is a lambda
<moon-child>
yeah
<DHARMAKAYA>
Ah, was simply necessary to drop that inner lambda on what I posted at first
<DHARMAKAYA>
Thanks for confirming that was generally correct!
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<DHARMAKAYA>
For any that would like a pretty edition: λf.( f (λx. f (x x))(λx. f (x x)))
<DHARMAKAYA>
And that is one for the long term math and programming notes archive. Thanks again!
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<DHARMAKAYA>
I don't wear t-shirts, although thought of a great t-shirt idea tonight: "Does he even Mandel, bro(t)?"
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<DHARMAKAYA>
Of course with the Mandelbrot on the shirt
<DHARMAKAYA>
Or maybe that pic of benoit looking straight-on
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<Josh_2>
asarch: I use Jonathan
<asarch>
Thank you!
<asarch>
Thank you very much! :-)
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<markasoftware>
what are the *features* entries usually used for operating system detection
<markasoftware>
nevermind, i'll just use trivial-features
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
asarch: I use yason
<fiddlerwoaroof>
It's not perfect, but I like the API it presents
<asarch>
Thank you!
<asarch>
Thank you very much! :-)
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<flip214>
_death: :( but thanks
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<flip214>
can someone offer l10n or i18n (never know which - translating text strings) hints for CL-WHO? Is there some library that uses a _ macro and GNU message catalog input files to build a translation table?
<flip214>
looks like cl-i18n is what I want/need
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<scymtym>
_death: McCLIM has hyperclim.el for such lookups. i don't know if replicating the symbol database in SLIME would make sense. in fact, i have been working towards reducing the multiple lists of all CLIM symbols to a single ground truth
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<ldbeth>
Can I take that most update to date common lisps have included the same functionalities as XP?
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<Xach>
ldbeth: what is XP?
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<edgar-rft>
Xeroderma Pigmentosum
<phoe>
XP, the pretty printing system?
<phoe>
AFAIK it eventually became a part of ANSI CL, so it must be included by all conforming implementations
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<ldbeth>
phoe: thank you
<ldbeth>
I'm playing with a very old software (1992), trying to figure out how to load the system
<phoe>
that's pre-ANSI, might need some porting in general
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<ldbeth>
Guess I have to make a decision between reusing MK:DEFSYSTEM or adapt ASDF:DEFSYSTEM
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<flip214>
can cl-i18n also generate MO or PO files, so that I can tell people to use standard tools for translating?
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<sabrac>
flip214: You available to review some functions?
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<flip214>
sabrac: not right now, please shoot me an email.
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<ldbeth>
Is it possible to have DECLARE ignore unknown declarations?
<phoe>
(proclaim '(declaration of war)) (defun make-war () (declare (war on rust programmers)))
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<ldbeth>
thank you Bike phoe
<phoe>
but in serious uses, use a toplevel DECLAIM as Bike suggested
<ldbeth>
It's because the old source file uses some delarations for interface document generator
<ldbeth>
I think I could use proclaim to make this take effect gloabally
<Bike>
declaim and proclaim are both global
<semz>
I've been wondering for a bit: Does PROCLAIM have an edge over DECLAIM outside of implementing some kind of interpreter on top of CL?
<phoe>
PROCLAIM is not eval-when'd, that's all
<semz>
I never quite understood why it exists
<Bike>
proclaim is good if you're doing something weird where you generate declarations at runtime, i guess
<Bike>
it's not usually very useful
<phoe>
(other than as a building block for implementing DECLAIM)
<ldbeth>
for legacy softwares mostly
<ldbeth>
Some of them build their own building system/document generator/module systems using macros
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<Josh_2>
Good afternoon
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<TMA>
i guess that proclaim is there for the same reason as progv
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<Bike>
yeah, same kind of deal.
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<_death>
scymtym: oh, cool.. did know about hyperclim
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<luni>
Hi all... i was trying to load clisp from slime/swank under Emacs and i get this: Process inferior-lisp floating point exception (core dumped) ... anyone knows a possible solution? Thanks in advance
<jdz>
luni: Do you have this same problem when running clisp directly from shell?
<luni>
no, from the shell is working well .. i used quicklisp to install quicklisp-slime-helper and all is ok
<jdz>
luni: Also if you don't have any specific reasons to use clisp you may try another implementation.
<luni>
yes... there is a specific game that was made using an old version of clisp
<luni>
but i'm using the latest anyway
<jdz>
The "latest" is a moot point when talking about clisp.
<luni>
yes this -> 2.49 (2010-07-07)
<luni>
anyway there is something strange.. i remember i used clisp end emacs not many years ago without troubles
<luni>
but now after loading the swank-repl appear that error
<jdz>
My guess would be some foreign library interface has changed.
<jdz>
So I'd suggest compiling clisp yourself.
<jdz>
Either 2.49 or the latest version from source repository.
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<luni>
i have not compiled clisp from sources. i'm trying the latest version from the repository using apt-cyg :/
<luni>
anyway why do you think that matter?
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<jdz>
My *guess* is that an incompatible version of a shared library is being used.
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<luni>
ok... i will try after some other trails to compile from sources and see what happens
<luni>
*trials
<jdz>
Or you could try to debug the core file and see what exactly the problem is.
<luni>
how to do that?
<jdz>
Using gdb.
<luni>
ah, ok
<luni>
thank you
<jdz>
No problem, I hope you get it sorted.
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<Bike>
anyone around who can help me debug a complex format string? I have (format nil "~:{~a:~%~@< ~@;~:@{~?~%~}~:>~}" '(("f" ("bye ~2,'0d" (4)) ("h" ())) ("j" ("qud ~a" (list)))))
<Bike>
This prints "f:\n bye 04\n h\n j:\n qud LIST". The problem is that the "j:" has spaces before it that I don't want. It looks like the per-line prefix is still in effect, but that doesn't make sense to me.
<Bike>
do per-line prefixes not run out after a logical block, or what am i missing here
<Bike>
(format nil "~:{~a:~%~@< ~@;~@{~a~%~}~:>~}" '(("f" 'a 'b) ("j" 'c))) is a little simpler but has the same issue.
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<scymtym>
one ugly solution would be (format nil "~{~{~a:~%~@< ~@;~@{~{~?~}~^~%~}~:>~}~^~%~}" '(("f" ("bye ~2,'0d" (4)) ("h" ())) ("j" ("qud ~a" (list))))) to move the hard newlines out of the logical blocks
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<Bike>
but why is it happening at all?
<Bike>
if i replace ~:{ with ~:{~& it adds an extra break but the indentation is correct. i guess that's probably good enough for my purposes
<scymtym>
i think the reason is that ~% within a logical block causes the per-line prefix to be printed, even if no further output is produced within that block (and don't ask me whether that is conforming behavior or not)
<Bike>
i tried it on two different implementations, though i suppose they probably use the same pprinter
<Bike>
well, thanks
<scymtym>
sure
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<jmercouris>
a way to do a mapcar ONLY if not null instead of deleting nils after?
<jmercouris>
so (mapcar (format "~a" (list 0 1 2 nil)))
<jmercouris>
instead of giving me a list of strings with a nil at the end
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<adlai>
don't put the ANAL back in "IANAL"
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<adlai>
my understanding of the role of a software license is that first and foremost it is a text for humans, rather than a compiler
<adlai>
so if the text you want humans giving their compilers is not dependent on zillions of different definitions, you don't need much text for the humans either.
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<adlai>
one elementary test for a software license is whether it is versioned; e.g., the copy of the Apache license that I happened to have nearby, ends with "Licensed under the Apache License, Version 2.0 (the "License");", which is already a bad sign
<adlai>
iirc the LLGPL was written for the LGPL two-point-something, and the original GPL is now beyond three, while the LGPL probably just got s/2/3/ed
<adlai>
if these things were text for compilers AND humans, you could ask prolog whether there's a conflict. good luck with that.
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<adlai>
what's the best place for duck-typing a generic function? [current competitors are no-applicable-methods and compute-, although maybe I've missed something]
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<adlai>
I guess an unspecialized defmethod, although that violates the unstated constraint of "without adding a method to the generic function in question"
<adlai>
maybe someday i'll stfu and port sheeple to clos, but -- not today
* adlai
should probably sharpen what is meant by "duck-typing a generic function"
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<adlai>
since the ideal of duck-typing is that there are no more defmethods, nor defun, and funcallable-instance actually gets standardised
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<jmercouris>
is there a way to force compilation errors to reappear?
<jmercouris>
I do slime-reload-system and it doesn't show me all the compilation errors
<Nilby>
(asdf:load-system :foo :force t)
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<jmercouris>
anyway to do that via slime?
<jmercouris>
some sort of slime equivalent?
<jmercouris>
I see, "force-load-system"
<jmercouris>
the order changes
<jmercouris>
no wait, still no warnings...
<jmercouris>
I had to restart the REPL and force to get warnings
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<Bike>
having to restart the repl makes it sound like the warnings were no longer a problem, like if you had (defun foo () *var*) (defvar *var*)
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<phantomics>
Hey all, quick question: am I correct in thinking that there's no way for CL to tell the difference between a symbol input as ABC and a symbol input at |ABC|? Apart from the presence of lowercase letters in a symbol name, there's no inherent quality that sets a pipe-quoted symbol apart from other symbols, right?
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<Bike>
depending on how the readtable-case is set up there's some different behavior there, but you're right to think that quotation isn't a property that sticks around
<Bike>
the symbol name is just a string. there's no notation of quoting or anything. (symbol-name '|123|) => "123"
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<phantomics>
Bike: makes sense, thanks
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<aeth>
most forms where you want to do that already have an "implicit progn" (meaning you don't have to do that), but IF is probably the most common place where you need PROGN
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