<mfiano>
Hmm I suppose there is no way to get the length of a Gray stream...this isn't going to work
<Bike>
streams don't necessarily have lengths, right?
<mfiano>
Right :(
<Bike>
you don't need it for a slice thing, right? you just have to use LISTEN or whatever to see if there's more coming
<mfiano>
I developed a vfs for use in my game engine, and I need to pass a gray stream denoting a slice of that binary stream to third party libraries that try calling file-length. I thought I could just reimplement the toplevel third party functions, but i don't really have a way to get the length
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<mfiano>
A pile of libraries I want to pass a slice to expect a file stream
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<mfiano>
And of course file-length isn't even generic
<Bike>
it doesn't sound like your stream is in fact associated with a file anyway
<mfiano>
It is not. THese libraries expect one that is is the problem
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<mfiano>
Seems the only thing I can do is reimplement all or part of a pile of libraries
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<jasom>
finally got my "chewing gum and duct tape" version of C-c C-c in emacs; see rendering of webpage change. Trying to decide if it's worth flushing out or not.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
jasom: cool, I did something like that with websockets once
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* fiddlerwoaroof
has too many simultaneous projects
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<dyeplexer>
Aside from Logo/MSWLogo (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MSWLogo), is there any other general purpose lisp dialect that makes brackets optional?
<beach>
dyeplexer: There is no widely agreed-upon definition of "Lisp dialect". That is why this channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, which is quite well defined.
<no-defun-allowed>
If Logo counts, does ML ("Meta Language")?
<flip214>
dyeplexer: I once wrote a lisp reader that inferred form borders by the indentation (like python), but I didn't like the layout
<dyeplexer>
As far as I remember (last time I touched it 10 years ago or something) logo simply counts the number of arguments required by the function and puts the successive tokens as the function arguments
<dyeplexer>
and brackets were only used to resolve precedence
<dyeplexer>
i.e. no sensitivity to whitespace
<no-defun-allowed>
Or what about Smalltalk-72, where objects would parse input themselves?
<flip214>
that sounds like PostScript or Forth
<beach>
dyeplexer: It would be very strange to call such a language a "Lisp dialect". One of the main features of Common Lisp is the fact that it is homoiconic, which you would then lose with such a language.
<flip214>
but Common Lisp (and other Lisps) have variadic argument lists, so there need to be some markers
<dyeplexer>
flip214: I imagine for variadic functions brackets would be mandatory
<flip214>
beach: sorry, I don't understand that. as long as there's a reversible transformation (eg. parenthesis <=> indentation), why would that not maintain homoiconicity?
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<beach>
flip214: Granted.
<beach>
I took "optional" to mean that you can put some in if you like.
<beach>
dyeplexer: You may want to try to ask you question in ##lisp. That channel should have a good time trying to determine what languages are "Lisp dialects".
<dyeplexer>
I see, thanks
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<abbix>
Hey
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<beach>
Hello abbix.
<beach>
abbix: Are you new here? I don't recognize your nick.
<abbix>
yes, I am
<beach>
Great! Welcome!
<abbix>
Thanks!
<beach>
What brings you to #lisp?
<abbix>
I've been learning/doing stuff with lisp
<beach>
Sounds like a good idea.
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<Xach>
Is there a way to tell if a symbol names a special variable?
<beach>
Nope.
<Xach>
That's it, I'm finished with this stupid language forever!
<beach>
We need a revised standard.
<beach>
Shouldn't be too hard to accomplish.
<Xach>
(What I will actually do is look into implementation xref data instead.)
<beach>
Just gather a few newbies who have programmed in JS an Python and let them decide.
<_death>
should likely return two values.. is special? is definite answer?
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<_death>
obviously redundant boundp check there..
<White_Flame>
interesting, so this checks to see if a dynamic binding is created in the LET scope?
<_death>
yeah.. boundp ignores lexical bindings
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<_death>
the constantp can be pulled out of the eval and binding the symbol to NIL may violate a type declaration.. but it seems a good approximation at first sight
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<White_Flame>
SBCL gives an undefined variable warning for non-special var usages; that's not required by the standard, right?
<beach>
Are you sure EVAL is needed here?
<Bike>
how would you do it without eval?
<beach>
Just thinking. Let me think some more before I say anything I might regret.
<_death>
beach: the issue is you need to bind (not necessarily dynamically) an arbitrary symbol
<Bike>
the actual test is seeing if a new binding of the variable is special or not
<White_Flame>
(high stakes brainstorming)
<beach>
Yes, I see.
<White_Flame>
progv then?
<Bike>
progv always makes a special binding
<White_Flame>
or does that always ... yeah
<Bike>
the special declaration is actually a lexical property, confusingly enough, so i don't think there's any way to test it without evaluating some code
<Bike>
(and of course this only works for global proclamations)
<_death>
I am saying "bind a symbol" to give a hint on the intention; of course a lexical binding has no concept of symbols
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<White_Flame>
of course, you could also give a code walker the var, outside the spec
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<White_Flame>
s/the var/the symbol/
<Bike>
if you have enough access to implementation extensions/internals that you can just ask if a variable is declared special in some environment, there's no need to do this
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<_death>
grepping my third-party lisp libraries directory, I see specialp functions in introspect-environment (Bike's library) and ace.core as well, though they don't take this approach..
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<MrtnDk[m]>
I thought I found a bug in Emacs, but I realise I probably have it configured wrongly. When I save a buffer that doesn't end with an empty line, Emacs adds one ...
<phoe>
(setq mode-require-final-newline nil) ?
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<phoe>
it seems to be a bit more complex, though, and a question to #emacs - but AFAIK almost all files on Unix either require or work well only with newlines at the end
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
I wrote a special-p a while ago here, but I forget the details of how it worked
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I think I made it a macro rather than a normal function, though
<phoe>
doesn't cltl2 solve this? can't you call variable-information and check if there's a SPECIAL in there?
<phoe>
it must be a macro in order to use cltl2, yes
<phoe>
you don't get &environment otherwise
<Bike>
sure, if the cltl2 implementation doesn't suck
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Yeah, as long as you have a TRIVIAL-CLTL2 package
<phoe>
oh!
<phoe>
...are we talking about implementations that don't have it? if yes, which ones are these?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I'd think trucler might have something like this too
<fiddlerwoaroof>
That doesn't work for locally-bound special variables, though
<Bike>
it should if the trucler native client actually works.
<MrtnDk[m]>
phoe Thanks, I was able to customize the variable to nil. I reckon if a file needs a newline, I just need to add one. I think this<del>bug</del> feature has bothered me for years, I just didn't realise what it was, until now. In this case I needed the file to be without trailing newline.
<phoe>
yes, I see
<beach>
Trucler in combination with Clostrum will work.
<phoe>
I never ended up needing a file that does not end with a newline; I assume you have a different use case
<MrtnDk[m]>
I don't know if #Emacs is bridged, otherwise I might report it as a bug, but I guess I just disagree on some of the defaults ...
<phoe>
it isn't!
<phoe>
#lisp is a lair of Common Lisp programmers
<phoe>
#emacs is a lair of Emacs Lisp programmers
<phoe>
these are distinct languages
<phoe>
so you might want to jump there for emacs-specific discussion
<MrtnDk[m]>
I know ... Sorry for asking here. Just that I've been working a lot with CL lately.
<phoe>
no problem
<phoe>
a lot of #lisp population uses emacs, so there's some overlap
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<edgar-rft>
In Lisp a comment starts with a semicolon and ends with a newline. Some old Lisps had the problem that if the last line of a file is a comment and and doesn't end with a newline then the contents of the following file was considered as a comment, too, until the first newline. That's the reason for the "automatic newline" feature of Emacs.
<edgar-rft>
The only Lisp with that problem I know in 2021 is the Nyquist interpreter in the Audacity audio editor wich is based on XLISP2 from somewhere in the 1980s.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
beach/Bike: yeah, I realized shortly after posting that this only worked for bindings in the null environment
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<VincentVega99>
Anyone used hu.dwim.sdl before? After quickloading it, the bindings are generated, but nothing is exported (`hu.dwim.sdl:` will get me completions just for 3 things, none of which are actual bindings), do I misunderstand how to use it?
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
VincentVega99: Are you looking at this package? hu.dwim.sdl.ffi
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<jcowan>
Read-delimited list is specified to skip whitespace and comments before calling read, but it is unclear how to know what a comment is, as there is no such syntax type. Does that mean that the syntax of comments is not extensible.
<Bike>
jcowan: read-delimited-list calls read, which calls reader macros. if a character has a macro function that reads some characters and then returns no values it's defining a comment syntax
<Bike>
as you can see, what it does is determine if the next character is a macro, and if it is, calls it, and if it returns no values, it's a comment
<jcowan>
Consider a case in which { invokes read-delimited-list and passes } to it. Then { #|foo|# } would fail, except that read-delimited list knows that #|...|# is a comment and ignores it. This knowledge has to be hardwired.
<Bike>
it is not
<fiddlerwoaroof>
That's interesting, it means that there's at least one place where (values) isn't equivalent to returning nil
<Bike>
the #| reader macro returns no values, which the higher level reader knows it was a comment
<Bike>
knows means*
<Bike>
it doesn't know about #| specifically
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<Bike>
this is described in paragraph three of step 4 of the reader algorithm in CLHS 2.2
<Bike>
comments couldn't really be a syntax type, since obviously in ";foo" the whole thing is a comment, including the F O characters that are alphabetic
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<VincentVega99>
fiddlerwoaroof: yeah, hu.dwim.sdl.ffi is exporting nothing it seems. c2ffi-spec has these sort of lines, though: `(COMMON-LISP:EXPORT 'COMMON-LISP:NIL '#:HU.DWIM.SDL.FFI)`
<Bike>
i guess you could have "start a comment" and "start a block comment" as syntax types, but reader macros handle it
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<Bike>
fiddlerwoaroof: i think it's one of only three places where the number of values actually matters, the other two being multiple-value-call and the :no-error clause of handler-case
<Bike>
fundamentally they all basically go through multiple-value-call, though
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<Bike>
i guess you could count multiple-value-list as well
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<rpg>
Slightly OT: did Travis just pull the plug on providing CI for open source software on GitHub?
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I think they announced something like this a while ago
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<rpg>
Yes, I seem to have gotten a small pool of credits that I "spent" without realizing it. It's hard to see how I could come up with more for lisp libraries. I suppose as a community this will make common-lisp.net more appealing. And also we will have to kick in some resources to help them scale up their CI.
<fe[nl]ix>
rpg: Travis replaced the OSS tier with CPU credits in the "Free" tier, and that will keep going for a while
<fe[nl]ix>
rpg: I doubt it will make common-lisp.net any more appealing
<rpg>
fe[nl]ix: Right, but AFAICT the CPU credits don't ever refresh. So once they are gone, that's it.
<rpg>
They have a ridiculous system of credits that is inflated by an order of magnitude (the "unit" is really 10 credits)
<fe[nl]ix>
readily available integration with Github and reliability are more important (in practice)
<rpg>
I have no idea how one refreshes the supply for $$$, either.
<rpg>
fe[nl]ix: Well, readily available integration with GitLab isn't really so bad.
<rpg>
Also, it seems like they have not set up the method for buying more credits!
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I've mostly switched to Github actions and/or circleci
<fe[nl]ix>
I think they want you to switch plans
<rpg>
I think I want to switch plans to somebody who will explain things to me in very simple words!
<rpg>
Now I am going to have a drink and not think about how I will do regression testing on my repositories!
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I stopped using Travis a long time ago because of how difficult it was to debug broken travis builds
<fiddlerwoaroof>
When I realized that CircleCI gives you a way to SSH into a failing build step and poke around, I was sold
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