<fiddlerwoaroof>
it also provides a kind of grammar-directed pattern matching too
<Bike>
MrtnDk[m]: the sbcl documentation on standard operators is sparse because it's expected you'll be using the CLHS or something. there's a way to get the hyperspec into emacs info... i think it's explained on cliki or something
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
MrtnDk[m]: if you're using emacs, it's possible to add some advice to make hyperspec-lookup open documentation in eww instead of your system web browser
<fiddlerwoaroof>
But, I don't think there's a texinfo version of clhs, and clhs itself is non-free
<MrtnDk[m]>
fiddlerwoaroof I don't have the slime from quick Lisp yet, but I guess it works anyway. However, it fires off a browser, to look up a single word.
<MrtnDk[m]>
Ah, that looks nice. I guess I just have to configure Emacs to use eww instead of the external browser.
<MrtnDk[m]>
fiddlerwoaroof I suppose that goes in your .emacs-like file?
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<MrtnDk[m]>
Ahhh, your code automatically switches to eww, I guess. Very nice.
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<MrtnDk[m]>
fiddlerwoaroof (setq common-lisp-hyperspec-root "file:///usr/share/doc/hyperspec") ;;; this will allow eww to access your local copy.
<MrtnDk[m]>
ups ... I forgot a / after hyperspec
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<MrtnDk[m]>
beach beach good morning
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<beach>
MrtnDk[m]: From reading your questions, it looks to me like you are trying to iteration in Common Lisp using recursion and tail recursion, the way it is done in Scheme. That is not the best way to do it in Common Lisp.
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<MrtnDk[m]>
beach beach you're correct. I didn't realise that.
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<beach>
Tail recursion is a beautiful theoretical construct, but programs that use it are often hard to read, especially if they were artificially turned into tail recursive programs by the technique(s) shown in the text books.
<beach>
Plus, the Common Lisp standard does not guarantee that tail calls will be optimized, so you are likely to overflow the stack even for lists of modest length.
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<MrtnDk[m]>
Also, I guess common lisp had constructs that makes it easier to avoid recursion.
<beach>
MrtnDk[m]: If you look in the Common Lisp HyperSpec table of contents, you will see a chapter entitled "Iteration". That's a good way to start.
<MrtnDk[m]>
Nice.
<beach>
There are several iteration constructs, but LOOP is pretty much the only one you need, and it is often the best choice in terms of creating readable programs.
<MrtnDk[m]>
Thanks to fiddlerwoaroof , I managed to get hyperspec lookups to work within Emacs.
<MrtnDk[m]>
Oh, loop is very flexible.
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<moon-child>
eh, depends
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<moon-child>
imo mapcar is generally clearer than loop+collect
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<beach>
I find that to be true only if the function you apply is already defined with a name.
<beach>
As soon as you need to use an anonymous function, things get more complicated.
<White_Flame>
I made a dolist shaped macro for do-mapcar, for readability. (do-mapcar (item list) ..body)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
beach: you can get pretty far if you like combinators :)
<White_Flame>
often syntactically, the list parameter to mapcar is a single term, and is at the end of a long lambda, and is visually less discernable
<fiddlerwoaroof>
(mapcar (key "foo") hash-tables)
<no-defun-allowed>
I found REDUCE handy for some macros which generate nested outputs, like an implementation of COND from IF.
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I always think of REDUCE as being for implementing more specialized iteration constructs
<fiddlerwoaroof>
e.g. the implementation of MAPCAR might use REDUCE
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<MrtnDk[m]>
fiddlerwoaroof Thank you for the help with hyperspec. I found one thing to add, for mine to work: (setq common-lisp-hyperspec-root "file:///usr/share/doc/hyperspec/") ;;; this will allow eww to access the local copy. But huge help. It works now.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
MrtnDk[m]: no problem, I've always just used the online version, but that makes sense
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<MrtnDk[m]>
I consider disabling pictures, but it works nicely already.
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<MrtnDk[m]>
The links and everything.
<jacks2>
lighter lambda and/or partial application syntax (made with regular or reader macro) would help with mapcar readability
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Auto-currying is more or less incompatible with variadic functions, unfortunately
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<ajithmk_>
Hey all, who have worked with socket programming,I am new to this. So I have a listen-func which connects a udp socket and listens on that. When I run it in repl it blocks on socket-listen. But when I send an udp packet on to the same ip/port from terminal, it does not seem to receive the data and hence listen-func does not return. What am I doing wrong here? Thanks
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<no-defun-allowed>
Following the SIMD-accelerated concurrent hash table, here is an unnecessarily fast modification of a base64 encoder/decoder: <https://github.com/telekons/qbase64/tree/sse2>
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<no-defun-allowed>
There is no point to this fork, other than I wanted to learn how they do base64 encoding in branch-free vector code, and I still don't really know, so it is completely pointless.
<flip214>
no-defun-allowed: to be on par with other implementations, you'd need the uri-encoded versions etc. also ;)
<no-defun-allowed>
Exactly, but as I don't understand the tables at all, I probably have no hope writing my own :)
<flip214>
not accepting whitespace is a problem anyway, I guess
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<flip214>
well, please *don't* make it available on QL, it's hard enough to find the "most active" (to not say "best") implementation of standard tasks there already
<no-defun-allowed>
Well, the encode-table is pretty transparent about what you'd change to get a different output, but decoding is just magic.
<no-defun-allowed>
flip214: Of course. And it also needs cl-simd, which is broken except for my fork, and that only works on a slightly old SBCL... Though the master branch does do better input validation, so I would like to get that upstream.
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<jmercouris>
what is a way to say "write to disk"?
<jmercouris>
should I be saying "storage" instead?
<jmercouris>
I don't want to write "memory" because that carries connotation of volatility
<jmercouris>
I also don't want to write "non volatile memory" because that is very verbose
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<ebrasca>
Why not "write to disk" ?
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<jmercouris>
because it is inaccurate
<jmercouris>
we are often not using disks
<jmercouris>
there is no disk in my machine, for example, only solid state storage
<ebrasca>
"write to storage" ?
<jmercouris>
no?
<ebrasca>
I think people understand "write to disk".
<ebrasca>
whay about "write to drive"?
<Nilby>
jmercouris: When I'm searching for good names I use the softare "dict" and "dict-moby-thesaurus" which gives hundreds of possibilities, like: deposit, squirrel, stow, chronicle, enscroll, engrave, scrive ...
<Nilby>
But sometimes it's best to go with the most simple.
<MrtnDk[m]>
loke Then we would have to rename tar as well, I guess.
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<loke[m]>
Mrtn Dk indeed
<Xach>
fitzsim: i don't quite get it. which part is the "write a script" part?
<MrtnDk[m]>
fitzsim What is dnf? Another package manager?
<loke[m]>
OSX had a program called disk utility last I have looked. I'm not sure they're planning to rename it.
<fitzsim>
Xach: it's a script template
<loke[m]>
Mrtn Dk it's the Redhat and Fedora package manager
<Xach>
fitzsim: ah
<MrtnDk[m]>
loke Oh, I thought that one was called something else, that I don't remember.
<fitzsim>
I'll update the post to put "template" in the first line
<loke[m]>
Mrtn Dk: Well, the package manager is still called rom.
<loke[m]>
I mean rpm
<loke[m]>
But on top of that there is the system that downloads packages and deals with dependencies. That used to be called yum, but was remade into dnf
<loke[m]>
Similar to how Ubuntu has dpkg, but on top of that is apt-get
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<MrtnDk[m]>
loke My point earlier, was that there is a difference between naming and renaming. Would we have named "tar" "tape archiver" today? Maybe, maybe not. That doesn't mean we have to rename it though.
<Xach>
fitzsim: i love a good polyglot hack. I've sometimes used: ":" ; exec sbcl ...
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<loke[m]>
Mrtn Dk: well I agree with you. I didn't realise that that was part of the same discussion :-)
<loke[m]>
That's gnome-terminal to the left and Konsole to the right
<MrtnDk[m]>
Right, some terminal emulators would, and depending on your Font, I guess they might show in a fb terminal as well. An actual vt100 (as in a physical one) would probably be a different beast altogether.
<fitzsim>
Xach: thanks for that link, bookmarked
<fitzsim>
I started out with ":" ; ..., but then saw #| somewhere, which allows a header comment, file local variables, etc.
<loke[m]>
Mrtn Dk: True. A vt100 doesn't support UTF-8. It's only ASCII. 7-bit.
<MrtnDk[m]>
loke Ah, I didn't realise you were on the matrix side, since you haven't decided on a profile pic yet.
<ldbeth>
but both of u get [m] suffices in irc
<loke[m]>
The matrix bridge work well enough that I rarely actually use the IRC connection these days.
<loke[m]>
I do have to keep in mind which channels are IRC though so I don't use markup or start correcting typos.
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<loke[m]>
ldbeth: Yes. That's added by the bridge.
<loke``>
It's because I'm already logged in here
<loke``>
There
<MrtnDk[m]>
ldbeth I think you can get around that. I think I even tried to at a point, but I'm not sure if it was on the freenode bridge.
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<loe>
Fixed
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<loke>
I mean fixed
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<MrtnDk[m]>
Now we have three?
<MrtnDk[m]>
No wait, four?
<loke[m]>
Four what?
<ldbeth>
four loke?
<jackdaniel>
MrtnDk[m]: loke: please cease the offtopic
<MrtnDk[m]>
Of you. Yes. 😁
<loke[m]>
Yeah, the bridge keeps old nicks in the channel for a bit. They'll time out.
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<ldbeth>
backto the topic, I think cl-editline gives something handy to start write CL inside terminal
<fitzsim>
Xach: that EmacsWiki link adds Windows support (!) to the wrapper script
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<MrtnDk[m]>
¯_ಠ_ಠ_/¯
<ldbeth>
🤯
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<ebrasca>
Why we need a bridge?
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<MrtnDk[m]>
ebrasca Let's stick to the Lisp topic, as Jack Daniels requested.
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<imuo>
i pop in and out, so i've missed it if anyone replied
<imuo>
is there any forum backend written in c. lisp?
<imuo>
i enjoy phpbb as a user, but alas not as a programmer
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<Shinmera>
I wrote an imageboard, but not a traditional bb.
<Shinmera>
Sure. Been using it for years so I at least know that project is pretty stable
<imuo>
but alas, i am personally interested in creating a space for sharing knowledge and having deep discussions in a particular topic i have great interest in
<imuo>
i feel something like wikipedia combined with a traditional bb like phpBB hosted over IPFS is probably the ideal for me
<imuo>
i will however play around with purplish and see how close this comes to my interest
<imuo>
Shinmera: would you mind linking to a site that currently uses purplish so i can see how it tastes?
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<alanz>
I notice that some things have a name starting with "%". Is there a convention about this? I notice it for e.g. slot names
<jmercouris>
Yes there is
<jmercouris>
Use it for dangerous implementation serials
<jmercouris>
Details *
<alanz>
"dangerous" in what sense?
<alanz>
aka private?
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<mfiano>
Yes, private. It is bad practice to name slot names the same as their accessors for example
<mfiano>
Therefor slot names are typically prefixed with %, to prevent exporting implementation details
<alanz>
yes, that is the usage I have seen. And impossible to search for :)
<alanz>
thanks
<mfiano>
This isn't used by everyone, but since you are not exporting functions, but symbols, you should be careful about what you give users access to. You don't want them to bypass the intended protocols put in place
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<alanz>
that makes sense
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<Josh_2>
Sly doesnt like it when you put parens into doc strings
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<mfiano>
It is fine with it.
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<Josh_2>
Apparently it isn't for me
<mfiano>
A open parenthesis at column 0 means something special in some editors
<mfiano>
If that's what you mean
<Josh_2>
Well I'm using emacs with sly
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<mfiano>
It's not anything to do with Sly if it is col 0
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<Josh_2>
ha yeh it was because the ( was at column 0
<Josh_2>
Interesting. Thanks for that info
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<Josh_2>
I'll have to remember that
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<phoe>
I wonder if there is prior work that is in better shape than this five minute sketch
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<edgar-rft>
phoe: I usually use (with-open-file .... (file-position <stream> <position>) (read ...)) when I e.g. want to read sample data from a WAV file but skipping the file header.
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<scymtym>
phoe: i suggest checking the return value of FILE-POSITION and signaling an error if the position could not be adjusted
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<scymtym>
phoe: you could also implement STREAM-FILE-POSITION and maybe even (setf stream-file-position)
<etimmons>
phoe: I believe flexi-streams can do this.
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<phoe>
scymtym: yes, thanks for the ideas
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<phoe>
edgar-rft: yes, but this does not work if a library wants to read until EOF, but I only want to give it bytes from M to N
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<phoe>
am I screwing up somewhere, or is this a flexi-streams bugticket?
<etimmons>
Huh. I swear I'm using that feature somewhere with success. Let me take a look
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<mfiano>
It seems bound is interpreted as (- bound position) and position is always 0...
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<mfiano>
That doesn't align with the docstring
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<mfiano>
etimmons: Curious what you find. phoe actually whipped up that example for me after I couldn't find a solution that worked.
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<kpoeck>
drmeister can you elaborate on "Lang gave me a solution that doesn't require a new garbage collector or switching to the large (slower) code model."
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<MetaYan>
If I get an error like https://termbin.com/w2ab , is there some magic trick in SLIME to jump to the actual error? I mean, the error is not in the compiler, which is all that I find in the backtrace...
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
MetaYan: if you open the file in question, you can set your emacs point to the position specified
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Also, if you open that file and compile it (C-c C-k), you should be able to use M-n to jump to the form with a problem
<MetaYan>
fiddlerwoaroof: Not sure what you mean by that. I mean that I wouldnät need to manually open the file – that there might be some key combination in SLIME that does it for me...
<MetaYan>
*wouldn't* - wrong key layout...
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I'm not aware of one
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I agree it'd be desireabl
<fiddlerwoaroof>
*desirable
<MetaYan>
This was just a recent example - it's happened many times, so hoping that some true SLIME magician reveals the trick. ;)
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<phoe>
MetaYan: that's an ASDF issue, sadly ASDF does not refer to that compile-file error anywhere
<phoe>
even though in theory it could
<phoe>
e.g. via a slot in the COMPILE-FILE-ERROR condition
<phoe>
actually
<phoe>
hmmmm
<phoe>
I think of a way how it could be implemented in ASDF, via handler-bind around the actuall compile-file call
<phoe>
that collects the errors/warnings/conditions actually signaled by the compiler and then can e.g. present them to the user
<fiddlerwoaroof>
Or ASDF could have a restart that takes a function to execute on the failing component
<phoe>
seems to work from what I roughly explore
<phoe>
sure, that works too
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<jmercouris>
phoe: if you can improve asdf error reporting I will be eternally grateful
<jmercouris>
The messages are always so cryptic and hard to trace
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I wish there were some better documentation of how it works
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
Defining operations and new component types sounds really useful, but there aren't many examples and the documentation of the object model is hard to follow
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<aeth>
oh, yeah, ASDF has a really hard to follow design... something that a few good macros probably could have hid
<fiddlerwoaroof>
The design isn't actually that bad: conceptually, it's just operations, components and some dependency tracking
<fiddlerwoaroof>
But the right way to add a new component type or operation isn't obvious
<fiddlerwoaroof>
And so I end up cargo-culting CFFI or whatever
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<MetaYan>
CCL/SLIME reports "Read error between positions 3313 and 3670 in /Users/Shared/cl/scm/incandescent/cubemap/cubemap.lisp.; Evaluation aborted on #<CCL::NO-SUCH-PACKAGE #x302005C008FD>." Would be really nice to be able to easily "visit" there.
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<Bike>
if the error has a position like that, slime could probably link to it in the compiler notes
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<semz>
ASDF 1 is pretty readable
<semz>
but unfortunately i'm not sure how much of the fundamental model changed between v1 and v3