<MrtnDk[m]>
I got my common lisp system up and running with emacs, slime et all on my raspberry pi, thanks to some of your guys. Now I am trying to get it running on my laptop. I installed sbcl, slime (from both ubuntu and melpa), but I can't seem to get the repl running. I'm sure I'm forgetting something basic.
<Xach>
MrtnDk[m]: what happens when you try?
<MrtnDk[m]>
Let me try again ... something about "lisp" not existing or something.
<ramenbytes>
If you have SBCL, you'd need to run 'sbcl'
<Xach>
MrtnDk[m]: i have a line like this in my ~/.emacs: (setq inferior-lisp-program "sbcl")
<MrtnDk[m]>
Searching for program: Ingen sådan fil eller filkatalog, lisp (No such file or directory, lisp)
<MrtnDk[m]>
Xach: That did the trick! Thank thee.
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<johnjay>
MrtnDk[m]: how did you get it working in emacs?
<johnjay>
iirc don't you have to issue two commands, one to start hte repl and one to start slime-mode?
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<MrtnDk[m]>
johnjay: I evaluated the spell I got from Xach, and then did "M-x slime" in the lisp buffer, i guess.
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<johnjay>
hrm, i installed slime and tried that, it does bring up a repl for sure.
<johnjay>
but i don't see how to get C-x C-e to evaluate the expression in slime unless maybe
<Xach>
Vi snakker Engelsk pa #lisp
<johnjay>
right i have to do M-x slime-mode for that
<MrtnDk[m]>
Xach: Yeah, but my system doesn't ... which is why I translated the error in parens. 😀
<johnjay>
.... directory is 'filkatalog'?
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<MrtnDk[m]>
johnjay: Strange. Slime is enough for me, but I have to C-x C-o back to the lispy buffer.
<johnjay>
well if you hit C-x C-e on say (+ 2 2) it shows 4 but that's emacs eval
<johnjay>
if it's evalling it in slime it says something like ==> 4
<MrtnDk[m]>
johnjay: Yeah, "filkatalog" is "file catalog" in danish, which now a days is known as "directory" in English.
<johnjay>
i'm going to ask someone to see their "file catalog" at some point now I know
<johnjay>
you know... the filkatalog!
<MrtnDk[m]>
johnjay: Oh ... my program is very small .. maybe it is compatible with Emacs-lisp and didn't realise .. .let me test.
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<MrtnDk[m]>
Mine shows "=> 4 (3 bits, #x4, #b100)
<johnjay>
hrm, interesting
<johnjay>
if you open a file test.lisp and just put (+ 2 2) in it and do M-x slime what happens if you do C-x C-e? the same?
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<MrtnDk[m]>
I wonder if I did something else. I put the (setq ...) thingy in my init file, so I will try and restart emacs, and do that. ... I will save test.lisp first though.
<johnjay>
i'm not as concerned because it seems the lisp process in the repl is the same one it's using for C-x C-e and such
<johnjay>
still was curious. maybe the slime manual tells more
<MrtnDk[m]>
Yes .. it works .. but maybe because I have swank (or what it is called) running already?
<MrtnDk[m]>
I guess I should restart the laptop to make sure.
<MrtnDk[m]>
It still works. I do have some slime in my initfile, although I don't remember putting it there.
<MrtnDk[m]>
Hmmm .. it just seems to be amount a list of packagenames sent to "package-selected-packages".
<MrtnDk[m]>
johnjay: Did thou install slime from melpa?
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<johnjay>
yeah
<johnjay>
i was afk and didn't see your message. i installed it in a debian vm
<johnjay>
should install it to ~/.emacs.d/elpa/slime-20210214.2243
<johnjay>
i'm guessing that's the time stamp or something
<MrtnDk[m]>
johnjay: I installed both as Ubuntu package and using "M-x package-list-package", locate slime and install it. That requires you to have configured Melpa in your init file though.
<johnjay>
which is odd because it's 20 localtime for me
<johnjay>
right
<johnjay>
i'm surprised ubuntu packages slime
* johnjay
hits the cymbals for that bad joke
<MrtnDk[m]>
Probably just the debian package.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
jcowan: yeah, at this point I've learned half a dozen different ways of writing programs, and I've generally noticed that each style has people who say it's "only good in theory", people who wonder why anyone would use anything else and people running large systems on the style.
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
SQL, in particular, isn't my favorite language, but once I understood the relational model somewhat, it can be really productive to learn how to model and solve certain sorts of problems in that paradigm
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<beach>
For the record, I am totally convinced both about the beauty and the usefulness of the relational model. I don't think I have said anything else.
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<beach>
I just watched a talk on YouTube entitled "Soldiers and Scouts: Why our minds weren't built for truth" by Julia Galef. I think her research might provide insight into the reason for the dismal state of the software industry, and software development in general.
<beach>
In particular, she reiterates a result that I have seen before, namely that a high degree of education in a domain makes people MORE LIKELY to misinterpret information so as to support their existing point of view.
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<beach>
I am sure this research has some interesting implications with respect to the use of Common Lisp, both in industry and in academia, but I am not yet sure what those implications are.
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<flip214>
beach: because then people have "more to lose" (more data, more education) if their viewpoint was wrong
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<beach>
flip214: That might be related, sure. I am not sure the full explanation is as simple as that, though.
<beach>
I am more interested in the consequences. It means that people with more knowledge about programming-language semantics, automatic memory management, compiler design, language design, software engineering, etc., are less likely to use that knowledge accurately to make an informed choice of what programming language to use.
<beach>
... at least if they have already formed an opinion in the domain, like people with many years experience in some particular language or programming style.
<Shinmera>
beach: There's also been studies showing that with political issues highly educated people are /less/ likely to change their minds when presented with contradictory evidence.
<beach>
Exactly!
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<Shinmera>
It's definitely made me try to make an active effort to be more open minded. :)
<White_Flame>
also, computing is just a job now, not an enthusiast pursuit of exploration and doing better things with these universe-creating boxes
<White_Flame>
no longer to empower the user, but to exploit them for data & subscriptions
<White_Flame>
those with the older viewpoint of exploration and advancement are a stark minority
<flip214>
"people do it for money and not for love"
<beach>
Also known as "professionals".
<White_Flame>
yep, but it has more active effects on the average person, who now has computing devices in their primary activities
<White_Flame>
one of active exploitation
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<White_Flame>
this is a huge reinforcer, with how much money can be made
<White_Flame>
in terms of people not having reasonable evaluations of the state of the art & overall direction
<White_Flame>
if it makes money, it must be good, right?
<beach>
I am thinking this: If training programs like university teaching programs teach languages such as C++ or Java, and the trainees get used to those languages, then giving them even more training is going to make them less likely to want to switch.
<White_Flame>
there's 2 mentalities when it comes to any tool
<White_Flame>
1) I can do this with this tool, neat!
<White_Flame>
2) I want to do X, what tool do I need to accomplish it better than my existing ones?
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<White_Flame>
your idea certainly plays into the 1st mentality
<White_Flame>
or, into people with the 1st mentality
<flip214>
White_Flame: well, you can solve _anything_ with a turing-complete language... doesn't mean it's a good idea
<White_Flame>
exactly
<flip214>
you need to know a few languages to know where each one has its sweet spot
<White_Flame>
I think the main question here is when is it best to try to introduce new languages?
<White_Flame>
I think people who grew up on assembly, BASIC, COBOL, etc, were left hoping for even greater things
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<White_Flame>
while with modern languages, a beginner could go a long way before finding lack in the language itself, for the purposes they're using
<White_Flame>
and might not even have a notion that the language could be lacking
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<White_Flame>
at least, as a random guess to throw into the concept
<seok>
My first language was python, and I moved just because loops were slow :P
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<beach>
White_Flame: I think that is correct.
<flip214>
White_Flame: that's a very good argument for starting IT education with assembler or BASIC, so that people constantly look around
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<flip214>
let's call it "the dark forest theory of CS" ;)
<splittist>
I suspect the problems people are interested in solving change over time. Back in the day it was symbolic differentiation, Eliza and block worlds. Now it's First Person Shooters and SaaS.
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<splittist>
Oh - and Big Data, of course.
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<splittist>
Actually, thinking back on my own experience, the first thing I wanted to do with a programming language was making rude words scroll endlessly up the screen. Then text adventures, tabletop RPG character generators, and Space Invaders. For splittist Jr it was an iPad cow clicker with in-game currency...
<splittist>
s/making/make/
* splittist
shuts up
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<White_Flame>
flip214: maybe not even starting with asm, but introducing it after the fact. People would have a mind to rederive the higher level stuff and might have an inkling to have broader ideas
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<White_Flame>
or that other possibilities are out there beyond their single preference
<moon-child>
‘It is practically impossible to teach good programming to students that have had a prior exposure to BASIC: as potential programmers they are mentally mutilated beyond hope of regeneration.’
<beach>
Sounds like Dijkstra.
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<White_Flame>
one thing that comes up in conversation a lot here, regarding people who basically code via stack exchange and trying libraries, is who writes the libraries? how do they do so?
<White_Flame>
only when you want more than what's offered are you required to think of how to create something new
<White_Flame>
I haven't gone through the "From NAND to Tetris" course, but I would hope it gets into some of these ideas
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<White_Flame>
actually constructing stuff instead of just configuring existing stuff
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<Josh_2>
Good morning
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<beach>
Hello Josh_2.
<Josh_2>
Hey beach, how is your work coming along?
<beach>
Quite well thank you. I think I almost finished register allocation. Some methods might still be missing but that should be easy to fix. You?
<Josh_2>
Yes its going quite well thanks, the last couple of days I have been getting a lesson in how to write instructions for normal non tech folks to follow
<Josh_2>
regarding interacting with part of my Lisp system
<beach>
That sounds challenging.
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<Josh_2>
I found that writing instructions that are concise and descriptive is quite hard
<beach>
It is.
<Sauvin>
Technical writing of any sort can be a skull-pounding headache.
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<splittist>
I assume technical writing and history of computing are compulsory courses for a CS degree...
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<Josh_2>
contrapunctus: How would you do that?
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<contrapunctus>
Josh_2: "running the program, observing potential improvements to UX to avoid hitting the documentation, and improving the documentation where necessary" comes to mind. Would that help?
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<Josh_2>
Ah I see. I really appreciate the offer but due to the nature of the program at the current time, and the way the user interacts with it I don't think that is possible.
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<flip214>
White_Flame: My son is currently learning c# in school; but starting at that point he has no idea of all the (more or less hidden) lower complexities.
<flip214>
I think that starting from a low level and going up people can really appreciate all the layers inbetween - and end up with a rough idea where to look when something goes wrong.
<Odin->
You may have a point about appreciation, but I think the real problem is when the lower levels are just completely ignored.
<Odin->
Resulting in severe cases of "any sufficiently advanced technology" towards programming languages and (particularly) VMs.
<no-defun-allowed>
I wish I could ignore lower levels. That'd be nice.
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<Odin->
Well, I for one don't often bother with thinking about the operation of computers in terms of the quantum physics of semiconductors.
<Odin->
So there's one lower level I ignore...
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<Josh_2>
no-defun-allowed: it would
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<Josh_2>
In my personal experience going from Lisp to other languages has been easy enough.
<no-defun-allowed>
Don't you miss making ABA problems with metaobjects in other languages?
<no-defun-allowed>
Or whatever the counter thing is, I forgot. And it's nice that looking up "ABA problem" comes up with child torture methods.
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<no-defun-allowed>
In my personal experience, going from Lisp back to Java at university made me want to transfer. So I did, and then I wanted to transfer again, but decided it was too hard to transfer once already.
<Josh_2>
yes but understanding Java was easy
<no-defun-allowed>
Understanding an abacus is easy, but I wouldn't want to use one ever.
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<contrapunctus>
Josh_2: I see, no problem 🙂
<contrapunctus>
no-defun-allowed: I've been advised by at least three Lispers to write something in a non-Lisp for sake of employment...but the C family icks me out and doesn't really seem to offer anything very unique. Which leaves me with...ML family, Smalltalk, Erlang, Prolog, or Forth, so far ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
<Josh_2>
Well you don't have to be employed as a programmer
<contrapunctus>
Yeah, I'm thinking I have more fun as an amateur programmer anyway. Can pick whatever language or problem which tickles my fancy. Have better qualifications and experience in my other field, too.
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<pjb>
Hi phoe!
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<Josh_2>
Hello stranger pjb :P
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<jmercouris>
pjb is back?
<phoe>
hey hi
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<pjb>
:-)
<jmercouris>
Any feature suggestions for Nyxt?
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<mfiano>
Better add the Rust port, before someone else beats you to it ;)
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<jmercouris>
Son of a ... you’re right! :-D
<jmercouris>
If only we had written in rust, then it would be free of all bugs!
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
jmercouris: A mac version that doesn't require Gtk or Qt :)
<fiddlerwoaroof>
I've never been able to get it to run on any mac I've owned :(
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<flip214>
no-defun-allowed: fizzbuzz?
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<phoe>
stylewarning: how are you trying to reproduce it? it seems that this is not a compilation error but a FASL-loading error
<stylewarning>
phoe: I've just tried loading & re-loading the system from scratch locally
<phoe>
so I guess that the way to reproduce it would be to compile everything, then try loading magicl/ext-blas in a clean image
<phoe>
hmm, I see
<stylewarning>
ASDF:COMPILE-SYSTEM -> restart -> LOAD-SYSTEM works OK
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<phoe>
hmmm, magicl/ext-blas depends on magicl/core which defines the magicl.backends package
<stylewarning>
correct
<mfiano>
Have you tried on that particular SBCL version?
<stylewarning>
mfiano: that's the only variable I haven't tried changing; i'
<stylewarning>
m on 2.1.x
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<phoe>
hmmm! try wrapping DEFUN BACKEND-NAME-P in EVAL-ALWAYS
<phoe>
my train of thoughts is, this is because it is mentioned in DEFTYPE and this type might be expanded in DEFMACRO WITH-BACKENDS... hmmmm, I'm thinking out loud
<phoe>
also DEFVAR *KNOWN-BACKENDS* in EVAL-ALWAYS
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<stylewarning>
phoe: great hunch
<phoe>
that's because DEFTYPE is like DEFMACRO, functions called by/vars accessed in the type expansion must be available in the compilation environment, hence EVAL-ALWAYS
<phoe>
I don't know if this fixes the bug in question but let's try
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<stylewarning>
phoe: I'm just going to commit that because it makes sense. I admit I haven't been testing on other platforms that are a bit more picky about *-time evaluation
<phoe>
I have no idea what is it about Xach-platform that makes it picky in this particular case
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<phoe>
but let's try!
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<phoe>
stylewarning: I am not sorry for the double pun I've made
<stylewarning>
phoe: :)))
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<phoe>
I am learning!
<phoe>
you and Xach are very good teachers on the matter
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<gnUser>
Hi guys, I am new to lisp (want to learn it for Emacs) any tutorial you can recommend? And anything cool to research that has been made using lisp?
<phoe>
which Lisp dialect do you want to learn?
<phoe>
asking because Emacs is written in Emacs Lisp, and #emacs is the best place to ask for that
<phoe>
#lisp is a lair of Common Lisp programmers, and CL is a different Lisp dialect
<phoe>
for elisp, I'd say Mastering Emacs; for CL,
<phoe>
minion: tell gnUser about pcl
<minion>
gnUser: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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<gnUser>
I suppose I want to lear elips, I though they would be similar enough :)
<gnUser>
phoe: thanks for that recomendation and thanks to minion too
<phoe>
they are somewhat similar on the surface but the deeper you go, the more different they are
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<gnUser>
phoe: interesting, how are they different if I may ask?
<phoe>
also, minion is our bot, you can thank him yourself
<gnUser>
oh nice, I would not know how to thank him apart from:
<gnUser>
minion: thanks!
<minion>
you're welcome
<gnUser>
cool
<phoe>
:D
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<phoe>
tl;dr elisp is a single-implementation unstandarized language mostly used for programming emacs whereas CL is a multi-implementation ANSI-standarized general purpose programming language
<gnUser>
interesting, I will look into both then
<gnUser>
thank you
<phoe>
(I don't think the guile backend for elisp is ready enough to count it as a second implementation...)
<phoe>
of course you can use elisp for general programming, though it's kind of not what it is very commonly used for and what it is most optimized for
<phoe>
that's where CL shines in comparison
<phoe>
although CL does not have a programming editor of emacs quality and availability of software (yet). a lot of people actually use emacs as the editor to program in CL
<phoe>
with toolkits like slime+swank, or sly+slynk, written in both elisp (client) and CL (server)
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<gnUser>
phoe: which editor is typically used for lisp programming?
<Odin->
It's probably safe to say that emacs is the most common.
<palter>
Just wish Steve didn't grab the Symbolics username on GitHub. Would've liked to use it for the actual Symbolics software. (Just the VLM for now until JCMa can be convinced otherwise.)
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<xristos>
palter: is that released?
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<palter>
Can't release it because of ownership issues. But, Dave Schmidt can grant access to the VLM on a per-request basis.
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<palter>
If you were a Symbolics customer, he'd probably say it's ok for me to give you access.
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<caoliver>
palter on-going? I while back I purchased an XL1201 which wound up with memory issues. I really didn't get much value from the expenditure. I still have the Gen 8.3 CD, but no hardware anymore. Is there any chance I would qualify for VLM? I put about $3K into the box and maybe got to run it 24 times or so before I had problems.
<caoliver>
I still wish I had the keyboard.
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<caoliver>
Do you suppose in view of that Dave might grant me access?
<pjb>
palter: well, symbolics-software is still free.
<caoliver>
Not really.
<caoliver>
It's more a piracy that's not vigorously prosecuted I believe.
<Lycurgus>
getting a thing alone doesn't constitute piracy in my book, gotta try to sell it
<caoliver>
IANAL, but you are perhaps making an unauthorized copy.
<Feldman>
I mean it also depends on the country you are in, travel to Switzerland and pirate to your heart's content.
<Lycurgus>
especially software for a computer that doesn't exist anymore
<caoliver>
OG 2.0 exists in a very public place though. I certainly didn't put it here, and I'm quite surprised it hasn't gone away.
<xristos>
caoliver: if it's out, it's out
<caoliver>
I do feel the principle interest is historical though, a museum you can run on your computer.
<caoliver>
So, I think the world is a far better place if OC, Medley, and Squeak are out there to poison childrens' brains. ;-P
<caoliver>
s/OC/OG/
* caoliver
has Squeak and Medley on his box, though most of his hacking is in LuaJIT and C.
* caoliver
doesn't like Pharo.
* Lycurgus
neither
<caoliver>
referent?
<Lycurgus>
the squeak fork
<caoliver>
Ah. The Inria guys took it in a very un-hackish way.
<Lycurgus>
which ftm peaked a while back
<caoliver>
And I like the projects feature. It make sort of an ideas notebook.
<caoliver>
Pharo got that stuff axed out.
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<xristos>
pharo has lost the plot completely imo, and i used to be a fan
<xristos>
i'd rather do squeak and morphic these days than waste my time with the ever-changing mess that pharo has become
<caoliver>
It feels like folk with an IT mentality got a hold of a smalltalk image.
<caoliver>
Agree. It strikes me as far harder to hack on, and more than a bit over-engineered.
<palter>
caoliver - I think he would give you access.
<caoliver>
I'll ask. My interest as you might guess from the scrollback is in no way commercial.
<palter>
The version in the wild is definitely not legitimate and is based on an emulator that has some serious problems.
<caoliver>
If I were doing that sort of thing, it'd be on one of the Linux native platforms such as SBCL or CCL.
<caoliver>
Yup.
<palter>
Open Genera (OG) is now up to 3.0. Genera is up to 9.0. Portable Genera which is e version for Intel and ARM is at 2.0.
<caoliver>
Who is doing the development? I know of Kalman. I know you're on the VM.
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<caoliver>
ARM to support the new Macs I'd guess.
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<White_Flame>
so is it completely removed from alpha-influenced emulation now?
<caoliver>
I should imagine aside from some hush-hush things, there really aren't many if any commercial customers.
<White_Flame>
or I guess I should ask, os Open Genera removed from the ivory instruction set now?
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* caoliver
didn't know that Maxima had an Android port.
<caoliver>
Based on ECL.... yuck!
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<White_Flame>
palter: the reason I'm curious is that I have my own from-scratch ivory emulator in CL, which also compiles ivory bytecoded functions into native CL functions.
<White_Flame>
but, I certainly don't have enough of the system platform guts to get any of the worlds that are out there on the internet to boot past a few million instructions
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<palter>
White_Flame - That’s cool.
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<palter>
Open Genera, now Portable Genera, still runs through an Ivory emulator. What’s changed is that the emulator is now native on both Intel and ARM64.
<White_Flame>
ah, k
<palter>
And, yes, it runs on Apple silicon (i.e., the new Macs). In fact, supporting those systems is why we had to rebuild Genera from source. The ARM version already ran fine on Linux. (I have it on a Pi4 at home.)
<White_Flame>
the biggest tradeoff I was looking at was C-based can do MMU stuff to not have to emulate the virtual memory aspects of each and every memory access, but CL would give me JITting of the ivory functions
<palter>
But, Apple silicon changed the hardware page size to 16KB and Genera used 8KB on the VLM which meant that as soon as two adjacent Genera pages needed different protection settings, Genera would crash. GC would trigger that all the time.
<caoliver>
Understood. Linux uses 4k pages, so pairing up two adjacent is trivial.
<palter>
I tried to fix it in a patch but it just wasn’t possible.
<caoliver>
I hate Apple for a number of OS related reasons.
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<White_Flame>
from CL, I get around a lot of that by simply allocating the entire 40GB address space in RAM
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<caoliver>
I hacked up a pthreads system for LuaJIT, but Apple decided to go their own way WRT IPC.
<White_Flame>
(or whatever size it ends up as)
<palter>
I started working on the VLM again back in 2014 (or ‘15) to help Dave Schmidt with one of his clients. He needed a working Intel version of the emulator.
<palter>
I did the ARM emulator on my own later because it was fun.
<caoliver>
Palter has a perverse definition of fun.
<White_Flame>
s/perverse/correct/
<palter>
We’ve also done a good deal of patches to Genera itself to better support ANSI CL. (We have a client running hunchentoot on Genera as his development platform)
<no-defun-allowed>
Does Portable Genera do any code generation, or does it interpret the Ivory code?
<palter>
Thank you, White_Flame.
<caoliver>
I will confess that having a lispm that fits in an Altoids tin is a novelty I can believe in. ;-)
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<palter>
As I remember, since I’m not at my computers right now, booting Genera and immediately shutting it down takes about 3 billion instructions. (I have traces.)
<White_Flame>
traces of correct execution are _exactly_ what I need to get unblocked from my development, but those world images would be different
<palter>
Oops. Just checked and it’s only 37 million instructions.
<White_Flame>
I haven't touched my code in probably over a year now
<caoliver>
How was the usability working on the RasPi4?
<White_Flame>
but I am proud of the name: Revivory
<palter>
The Pi4 is a bit sluggish compared to my other systems but is still much faster than original Ivory hardware.
* caoliver
remembers the XL1201 being loud, hot, and slow.
<palter>
I’ve got to do a video call right now. Back shortly.