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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<charles`>
Hi beach.
<charles`>
Is there any reason why quicklisp would not prioritize local-projects?
<no-defun-allowed>
It always has for me.
<charles`>
It has for me too, but in this one situation, it continues to pull form latest quicklisp release
<loke[m]1>
charles` you can try to delete system-index.txt
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<charles`>
wow, amazing! much thanks
<thermo>
i'm using sbcl, and i'm struggling to diagnose a slow OOM. i was hoping to get some related info by setting sb-kernel:gc-logfile and inspecting the output --- but nothing seems to be being written. are there further flags i'm meant to set?
<beach>
What is "OOM"?
<thermo>
out of memory
<beach>
Ah, OK.
<thermo>
i'd also be happy to just hear generic tips about diagnosing memory problems. if there's a way to see statistics what's still alive and where it was allocated, that'd be amazing
<no-defun-allowed>
If you break and evaluate (room t), SBCL provides a list of object types which have instances which occupy the most memory.
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<charles`>
Does anyone know of special variables not behaving properly on ABCL?
<beach>
Are you sure the behavior is ABCL specific?
<no-defun-allowed>
How are they misbehaving?
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<charles`>
beach, no-defun-allowed: I'm not sure 😁. I would really appreciate a you taking a look. It works perfectly on sbcl. Let me write a test that displays what is wrong. Then I will share a link.
<charles`>
Well, I managed to figure it out on my own. I'm sorry for possibly blaming ABCL.
<beach>
Congratulations!
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<charles`>
Are you working on anything cool today?
<beach>
minion: Please tell charles` about SICL.
<minion>
charles`: SICL: SICL is a (perhaps futile) attempt to re-implement Common Lisp from scratch, hopefully using improved programming and bootstrapping techniques. See https://github.com/robert-strandh/SICL
<charles`>
I know about it, I just mean specifically
<beach>
Register allocation.
<beach>
I invented what I think is a new technique.
<charles`>
that would be when you need to do some operations, how to decide which registers to put the data in?
<beach>
It is based on the OPT (imaginary) paging algorithm in that it estimates the distance to the next use of lexical variables, and when it needs to spill, it spills the one with the greatest estimated distance.
<beach>
More like deciding which register to spill to the stack when there are not enough of them.
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<beach>
Registers are typically grouped into (overlapping) categories like general-purpose, caller saves, callee saves, floating point. Usually, any register in the right category will do for an operation.
<beach>
But when there are not enough registers, but you need for a lexical variable to be in a register even though right now it is not, you need to "steal" a register from some other lexical variable. Performance depends crucially on that choice.
<beach>
If you steal a register from a lexical variable that is going to be needed in a register fairly soon, you waste load/store operations.
<beach>
charles`: Does that make sense?
<charles`>
Sure does
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<charles`>
When you are doing this stuff with registers are you still writing it in Lisp?
<no-defun-allowed>
Yes, all of the compiler is written in Lisp. (This is also the case for SBCL and Clozure at least.)
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<charles`>
I know that is the idea, but I just can't wrap my head around how you would manipulate registers like that.
<charles`>
without actually programming assembly
<aeth>
Effectively, via custom "inline assembly" except it's syntactically just s-expressions so it's not really "inline assembly".
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<beach>
Oh, you write a "code generator" in Common Lisp. You turn the Common Lisp code into machine code, and the program doing the turning is just another Common Lisp program. It is that program that inspects the instructions that are needed and makes decisions about what registers to use.
<no-defun-allowed>
You generate assembly in the end with any compiler. But the code manipulating the assembly is written in Common Lisp, yes.
<beach>
charles`: The decisions are made at compile time, not at run time.
<seok>
anyone else experiencing high latency with winhttp
<charles`>
hmm, so even though you aren't writing a compiler in assembly, there is some assembly written as output (maybe in a string). I got that it is at compile time.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Close, but the output is usually machine code, as a vector of bytes.
* no-defun-allowed
remembers "assembly" is the text form of machine code with labels and instruction names. Oops.
<beach>
charles`: As no-defun-allowed says, there is no particular reason for a compiler to generate assembly code. Assembly code was invented so that humans would have less trouble writing machine code. But a compiler does not need that human-friendly aspects that assembly provides.
<charles`>
sure, of course.
<White_Flame>
compilers have IRs
<White_Flame>
and "labels" as pointers etc
<White_Flame>
so one could consider such a representation to be very comparable to assembly
<White_Flame>
(s/pointers/references/ when written in lisp, of course)
<moon-child>
White_Flame: for the assembly representation, 'label' is more useful because it enforces an ordering, which you need to compute offsets (and decide when to generate short jumps, for supported platforms)
<no-defun-allowed>
I had generated acceptable assembly output from Cleavir's LIR once (which was used to make verifying it by eyeball somewhat easier).
<White_Flame>
moon-child: I mean a direct reference from 1 instruction's IR object to another
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<White_Flame>
certainly that form can be used to calculate relative offsets just the same
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<charles`>
Could someone help me understand how complex asdf are supposed to work. Ones with multiple systems defined in a single file, and stuff like cl-unicode/base
<charles`>
Why aren't they each in their own .asd file in their own directory?
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<fiddlerwoaroof>
charles`: I tend to find it's nice to group related systems into a single .asd
<fiddlerwoaroof>
ASDF now has some logic to complain if the system names don't follow a specified format, though
<White_Flame>
probably because they're intimately related. Broken out components of the same library for organization purposes, as well as tests & examples
<Xach>
It looks like the latest release was put up on common-lisp.net last night
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<Xach>
cl-freetype2, osicat, cl-gss at least - and osicat breaks a *lot* of other things
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<perdent1>
Hi I have a crypto challenge for you all, let me know what you think of it and if you can solve it ! Good luck The more the merrier, right? We decided to mash two of the best cryptosytems together for the best product. Our new encryption scheme is up and running and this time it is unbreakable! To prove that, we have also released its source code and a test center where you can test it out! host: 139.59.178.146:31817 (flag is located on the server) https
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<Lycurgus>
ty
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<Josh_2>
Good afternoon
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<luis>
Xach: thanks, I'll have a look and probably revert that bit. sadly osicat's travis cronjob was not active :(
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<luis>
Xach: pushed 0.24.1, which fixes osicat. Activated osicat's travis cronjob so that hopefully this sort of things gets caught before it reaches Quicklisp next time. thanks.
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<Xach>
luis: thank you!
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<jcowan>
beach: I don't understand why you need to compromise on allocation. OPT paging is impossible because the kernel has only peephole into what the user program is going to do. But you have the whole lexical scope already available, so no need to *estimate* what the remote distance.
<jcowan>
Of course there are conditionals, so that requires a model of probable branching. But I suppose you have that already in order to optimize compiling them.
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<Josh_2>
Xach: thanks I'll give it a look
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<phoe>
Xach: thanks for the garbage collection
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<jmercouris>
But we’ll never known what this unbreakable crypto scheme is!
<jmercouris>
Aren’t you dying to know?
<jmercouris>
/s
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<aeth>
Isn't unbreakable crypto scheme on-topic in #scheme not here?
* jcowan
snickers
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<aeth>
jcowan: and people still wouldn't use it for crypto, because of the parentheses
<jcowan>
I always have to search for [scheme language] or [scheme programming] on Google because of this issue. SCHMER would have been a much better name
<jcowan>
given the six-letter Maclisp restriction
<aap>
not maclisp, its
<jcowan>
As for the unbreakable crypto scheme, it is one-time tape/pad (xor each bit with a truly random bit, which must be available at both ends). Of course the key distribution problem is vicious.
<Odin->
For the latter, see Project Venona.
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<aeth>
aap: you have defeated me in alphabetic sorting!
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<aap>
aeth: sorry :)
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<jcowan>
aap: What do you mean by "not maclisp, its"?
<aap>
i mean the 6 char restriction is one of ITS, not maclisp
<Odin->
jcowan: The restriction didn't come from maclisp, but ITS.
<jcowan>
Ah, true.
<jcowan>
I cut my teeth on OS/8, which was 8+2 with no hierarchy
<pjb>
Well, it wasn't really a restriction, it was an optimization. Implemented in LISP 1. You can see it in the sources of LISP 1.5.
<pjb>
Basically, 36-bit hardware, 6-bit characters. Strings were represented using lists of words containing packed 6-character.
<aap>
ITS filenames are literally 6 + 6
<pjb>
So if you used more than 6-character symbols, they used more than one word.
<aap>
usually filename + extension
<aap>
so it would have been extremely unusual to call something by a name longer than 6 chars
<pjb>
unix too was developped on such a system (18-bit words), hence creat and similar function names.
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<aap>
pdp-7 unix used 2 chars per word
<pjb>
9-bit chars?
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<aap>
no, ascii
<aap>
so, yes, i guess
<aap>
but still just ascii
<aap>
ITS used sixbit
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<pjb>
That said, indeed, one could wish more people used more unique names. I liked IBM naming scheme. Like IEBFR14; there's no ambiguity.
<pjb>
On the other hand, try to search for "true"…
<pjb>
You need to add eg. true man page for some semblance of uniqueness and specificity.
<aap>
does an empty file need a manpage? :)
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<aap>
i guess it's no longer an empty file these days...
<pjb>
aap: the story of true matches the story of iebfr14. You'd be surprised by the commit list.
<jcowan>
CHeck out the publication date. BUt Crispin really was a PDP-10 programmer
<aap>
oh i didn't even realize it was from him
<jcowan>
UTF-18 should be replaced by UTF-18+, which would represent planes 0,1,2,3 instead of 0,1,F,10
<jcowan>
Gotta love this: "We are now in the process of implementing support for nonet-based text files and automated transformation between septet, octet, and nonet textual data."
<aap>
i'm not even sure whether this is a joke
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<aap>
they're still using pdp-10s at XKL
<aeth>
UTF-18+ sounds like a media rating scheme in some random country.
<aap>
although i hear they're using a custom OS these days
<jcowan>
Compuserve ran a modified TOPS-10 for a very long time, which is why Compuserve emails were 7xxxx,xxxx@compuserve.co,m
<jcowan>
I also devised UTF-6, an almost upward compatible extension of Sixbit, but I didnt write an RFC, so I've forgotten the details
<aeth>
What Common Lisp do people here use for PDP-10s?
<aap>
no common lisps unfortunately. but maclisp!
<aap>
you can all come to #pdp-10 if you want :)
<aeth>
But why would I run a PDP VM when I could just run a Windows 98 VM?
<aap>
style points
<aeth>
I wonder if SBCL 0.6.8 runs on Windows 98
<aap>
actually implementing a common lisp for PDP-10 would be interesting
<aeth>
(hmm, 0.6.8 is the oldest tagged version... SBCL news on the website goes back to 0.6.0, though)
<jcowan>
The general idea is to preempt 077, Del in ECMA-1, to show that a non-Sixbit character has been encoded in the general style of UTF-8