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<aeth>
Gnuxie[m]: I think the issue is one of time. Generally the way to get enough time to do it is to get paid to do a job in a related thing and there just aren't enough CL jobs yet.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<beach>
I thought the standard had a predicate to test whether an object exists anywhere in a tree of conses and atoms, but I can't find it. Did I make that up?
<aeth>
(or, actually, the second one, tree-equal already does that)
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<beach>
Ah, yes. Good point.
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<jedii>
is lisp more productive than smalltalk or forth
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<beach>
There is no good way to measure productivity of a programming language.
<beach>
You may look into two papers. One by Ron Garret/Erran Gat, and another by Hudak and Jones.
<beach>
They give some hints, but that's all you can hope for.
<beach>
I don't know whether they compare to Smalltalk or Forth, though.
<beach>
The article by Ron Garret is entitled "Lisp as an Alternative to Java".
<beach>
The one by Hudak and Jones is entitled "Haskell vs Ada vs C++ vs Awk vs ... An Experiment in Software Prototyping Productivity."
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<jedii>
hmmm
<jedii>
thx
<shka_>
it is a psychological problem and not many scientists there are interested in programming as it seems
<jedii>
picolisp looks wow database n web built in and database scales to N nodes.....hoyl crap
<jedii>
forth claims to be smaller simlper programs
<jedii>
and pharo.org claims by far most produtive since abstracts away other stuff liek js html etc
<jedii>
I just want to get rich and have fun doing software
<jedii>
hate devops agiel kubernetes erraform bs
<jedii>
terraform barf
<jedii>
gnoga.com interesting ADA
<jedii>
happstakc.com haskell
<jedii>
happstack.com
<no-defun-allowed>
If I was in a worse mood, I would say something like "you wouldn't need a large N (in your database, provided it's CPU bound) if you had a compiler."
<shka_>
no-defun-allowed: nice to see you in a good mood :-0
<no-defun-allowed>
You have cl-who to generate HTML, Parenscript for JavaScript, probably something like that for CSS too.
<shka_>
jedii: to paraphrase Chris Lattner from the lex podcast, the better language is the language that allows creating better libraries
<shka_>
that work together
<jedii>
ok so where would you keep your data?
<jedii>
postgresql and scylladb.com seem strong or could a lisp thing like manardb do the jobs?
<shka_>
i just use posgresql
<no-defun-allowed>
You could use the filesystem, a database (for example, postmodern abstracts away Postgres pretty well), or something else.
<shka_>
postmodern <3
<jedii>
and while I am at it....once you use postgreqsl the art of psotgresql gy says save 1,000s of lines of code by simply doing most work inside teh db and have thing web layer
<jedii>
in which casw waht abotu naverver+tcl+psotgresql combo would that beat a list solution?
<shka_>
no, not really
<jedii>
I mean when I think about it complexity in tabes
<jedii>
tables
<jedii>
my brain hurts
<no-defun-allowed>
Could you retype your...fourth last message please? (beginning "in which case what about...")
<jedii>
Ok say we have a postgresql db and then a web gui
<jedii>
naviserver(aolerver)+tcl+postgresql13
<jedii>
vs lisp + postmodern +postgresql13 + antiweb?
<shka_>
jedii: you can have your server in lisp
<jedii>
or would it be lisp +hunentoot+postmodern+postgresql13
<shka_>
yes
<no-defun-allowed>
CL would blow Tcl out of the water in terms of performance. The author of the latter basically invented the application/scripting language fallacy by my records.
<shka_>
postmodern nicely integrates pg into lisp, hunchentoot is lisp to begin with
<shka_>
so it is tightly knitted together
<jedii>
but I have to learn lisp
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<shka_>
lisp contrary to the popular opinion is not that difficult language to learn
<shka_>
it has just step initial learning curve
<jedii>
and the guy who wrote the art of postgresql claims if you model things in tables then you save 1,000s of lines of code doing things in programming lang you can replace with queries
<shka_>
that's probably true, but what about things which you cannot do in PG?
<jedii>
heh
<shka_>
like for instance drawing plots?
<jedii>
I have some time on my hands and an archlinux desktop
<no-defun-allowed>
That is usually true, if it's not possible to embed a declarative language in your programming language. But then appropriating a SQL server is probably easier than rolling your own querying stuff.
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<jedii>
so I could get my shit together and laern lisp
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<jedii>
what about something like manardb? would that and lisp together let me ignore psotgresql?
<jedii>
I wonder how perform ..
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<jedii>
also what about SBCL vs clisp
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<jedii>
sorry I rarely get to chat with real lisp programmers
<jedii>
drawling plots like for stocks and moniroting?
<jedii>
monitoring and trending and dashboards (barf)
<shka_>
use sbcl
<no-defun-allowed>
I think a good SQL database would (unfortunately?) be slower than manardb, and may handle crashing better.
<no-defun-allowed>
SBCL, again, blows CLISP out of the water in terms of performance.
<aeth>
CLISP and SBCL are on opposite extremes. Basically: low ram usage but slow <---------------------> high ram usage but fast
<aeth>
SBCL is on the "fast" side of things
<pve>
I love postgresql, but when my queries become longer than half a page, I start to rethink my life choices
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<pve>
re: putting business logic inside the db
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<beach>
shka_: It would be possible to do a scientific study concerning the productivity of programming languages, but it would be extremely costly. You would have to have many different teams for each programming language, and you would need to have them develop code for the same specification.
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<jedii>
so say I ignored postgresql
<no-defun-allowed>
I've seen some long JOIN things that make me never want to touch a database again, but to be fair "long" for a query is about 10 lines to me.
<jedii>
in lisp how would I keep data long term?
<shka_>
beach: Probably? It seems to be the bare minimum conditions for the experiment. I think there may be more to consider.
<ck_>
beach: how would you isolate the influence of language versus, say, standard libraries?
<pve>
jedii: you should not ignore postgresql
<jedii>
I dream of makign abstractions until lisp simply gives me the things I want....
<beach>
ck_: I don't know. And maybe I shouldn't. I mean, the existence of libraries influences the productivity.
<shka_>
for instance, for kicks, let's start throwing random changes into specification of the project while the team is working and see how quickly they can adapt
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<shka_>
this goes into the some evil scientist domain
<jedii>
there should be a programming tournment like with 64 teams like march madness basketball
<beach>
shka_: That would be very tricky to do systematically.
<no-defun-allowed>
It depends on how you want to access the data. If you just need to dump it all, then load it later, the Lisp printer or something like conspack could do.
<jedii>
ok say I had a dating website
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<shka_>
beach: that's what i meant that it is actually psychological problem (and hard one on top of that)
<jedii>
nothgin fancy jsut picutres and desciription and search n filter
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<beach>
shka_: Sure, but psychologists are very good with science.
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<jedii>
lisp could record path to a set of pictures and a terxt blurb and then messages from those interested
<jedii>
in my mind simple
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<jedii>
but how to make the upload button and web form for search or filter for onyl people in my home city..
<shka_>
beach: some are, some are not, but then you have to find some with the interest in programming
<no-defun-allowed>
Implementing a filter efficiently is fairly fancy, but if you don't have so many objects to filter, then you could naïvely scan objects in memory.
<beach>
shka_: Yes, I meant the good ones. :)
<jedii>
I was reading HTMl on w3 other day the form is literally built into HTML
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<no-defun-allowed>
That is true.
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<shka_>
so i think that in the best case scenario we will have to wait a lot longer before such studies can be conducted
<shka_>
in a proper way that is
<jedii>
does cl-who have functions for making HTML form inputs and getting the input?
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<shka_>
and i don't even know what the proper way really means
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<phoe>
jedii: for making forms, sure, these are just parts of HTML
<phoe>
getting input isn't really the domain of CL-WHO though, that's the domain of the HTTP server
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<beach>
shka_: I don't think it will ever happen, unless some government (China? India?) decides to take action to make their citizens more productive than the compentition.
<beach>
competition
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<beach>
shka_: And if that happens, we are all in big trouble. :)
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<jedii>
has there even been a competition like each team gets I dunno 7 days to make xyz webapp
<jedii>
and each team bring its creation
<shka_>
beach: i think it may be performed via online collaboration with teams of volunteers in the future
<jedii>
lol
<shka_>
but i am not putting any bets on it
<jedii>
China seems to not be messing around when it comes to engineering and building.....even fi some videos say they have had missteps
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<no-defun-allowed>
I'd mostly be concerned with how they cope with their spaghetti code over the next 70 days.
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<jedii>
oh after the 7? heh the spageti for 70?
<phoe>
jedii: that would be more of a question of what frameworks everyone utilizes to build that web app since building web apps is a well-developed problem and modern react or whatever builders allow you to slap together web apps really fast
<phoe>
but that's already #lispcafe discussion
<phoe>
since it has nothing to do strictly with Common Lisp
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<jedii>
but lisp could abstract the problem better and make things more maintainable?
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<jedii>
ultimatly simpler?
<jedii>
I never liked node apps or java or agile or devops
<jedii>
all smell bad to me
<phoe>
it's true that you can write spaghetti code in any language, but Lisp makes code much more inspectable and debuggable due to its interactive nature
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<phoe>
have you ever played around with the slime/sly inspector and debugger? or seen a video where someone does that?
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<jedii>
no I use vim
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<jedii>
emacs kicked my ass long ago
<phoe>
slimv/vlime also exist though I have never used them
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<jedii>
whats the niceness of slime sly?
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<phoe>
I can only say that they're very nice to program in because the interactive programming paradigm works really well in them; I don't know about vim plugins though because I never used them
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<phoe>
take a look at Baggers's Little Bits of Lisp series of videos
<phoe>
he shows Lisp basics while doing interactive programming all the time
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<jedii>
bookmarked on youtube
<jedii>
why is the node 1 page stuff and ract someone mentioned so poular?
<phoe>
that's already #lispcafe discussion I think :D
<jedii>
ah
<jedii>
ok back to lisp
<phoe>
we try to keep #lisp strictly on topic with regard to Common Lisp, and #lispcafe is for everything else
<jedii>
gentle intro to symbolic best intro? should I reread?
<jedii>
PCL another one but I didnt like
<phoe>
have you programmed before?
<jedii>
not much
<phoe>
then read gentle
<jedii>
shell scripts
<jedii>
ok
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<phoe>
PCL is a good book except for chapter 3 which is confusing
<jedii>
all right good night all
<jedii>
thanks for all the tips
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<phoe>
so feel free to skip PCL chapter 3 until you go like midway in the book.
<phoe>
good night jedii
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<pve>
It seems to me that the productivity of a language could mean different things, depending on the experience level of the programmer or the size of the team.
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<pve>
A simple language with few pitfalls might make a junior programmer more productive.
<aeth>
and "productivity" could just mean "has a library that solves your problem for you"
<aeth>
that's generally the selling point of Python
<moon-child>
import antigravity
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<pve>
The scenario that is often painted seems to be one experienced programmer equipped with a "better" language (CL?) that can code circles around a team of programmers using a "lesser" language.
<pve>
To me, that just seems like it could be different kinds of "productivity".
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<beach>
pve: Some other factors are involved in that scenario. First, the literature on software engineering suggests a factor 20 difference in productivity between different developers with the same training and the same experience. Second, since communication grows quadratically with the number of members, a team with fewer members gets an advantage.
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<pve>
beach: Those are good points. A factor of 20 seems almost unbelievably high.
<beach>
It does. But that seems to be what the authors agree upon.
<beach>
The article by Hudak and Jones suggests that it is possible.
<beach>
And my own experience confirms it too.
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<beach>
So, a good strategy for a company would be to try to measure this difference, and then fire the half of the staff below median.
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<SAL9000>
beach: maybe that's where the stack ranking methodology (which is still in vogue in some places, apparently) came from
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<beach>
If so, they totally blew it.
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<SAL9000>
As far as I understand, the biggest problem there is -- same as with genetic algorithms and neural networks -- measuring employee fitness objectively
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<SAL9000>
That is a problem in any business, but combining subjective measurement and stack ranking seems to cause a true dumpster fire.
<beach>
Exactly. And that's how this discussion got started. It is extremely hard, certainly at the level of a company or division, to measure productivity of programmers.
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<shka_>
i think that it may be even HARDER then we realize
<aeth>
SAL9000: another problem is that it keeps going. Assume you can fire half of the programmers. Well, next year you fire half again, even if they made the cut last time.
<aeth>
in a few years, there won't be any morale left
<SAL9000>
aeth: yep. I believe Google is still doing (more or less) that
<SAL9000>
fire the bottom 10%, promote the top 20%, etc.
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<White_Flame>
"Metrics are a great servant, but a terrible master"
<shka_>
aeth: now that's you encourage healthy cooperation!
<shka_>
such a strong incentive for supporting your colleagues
<SAL9000>
they have enough incoming wide-eyed graduates fresh out of uni to keep up with the churn, while the (upper) management feels somewhat secure in that they've risen above the game
<SAL9000>
s/wide-eyed/naive/
<beach>
A preferable technique would be to identify low-productivity developers and give them training to improve.
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<SAL9000>
assuming that those improvement plans don't become a black mark on one's permanent record, seems like a good idea
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<shka_>
it is even difficult to identify what low-productivity even means
<SAL9000>
from what I've heard, in many places being placed on an improvement plan is tantamount to imminent redundancy
<beach>
SAL9000: Well, some developers deserve what they get. Like the "performance oriented" ones.
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<shka_>
because code is not the seldom output of the developer
<SAL9000>
beach: performance i.e. career performance, as opposed to program performance?
<SAL9000>
shka_: I assume that most companies would prefer to define "productivity" as "completes projects within the timeframes specified by management, come hell or high water"
<beach>
As in my term for what Carol Dweck calls "closed mindset".
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<SAL9000>
Right. I do find "Students do not know how to use a debugger. Instead, they waste time debugging programs with trace output." amusing given that my current boss (loudly) espouses the exact opposite :-)
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<shka_>
eh, i kinda like CL:TRACE
<shka_>
it is at times more useful then the debugger
<SAL9000>
(admittedly, this is in the context of a 20-year-old C++ codebase involving a JITted custom language)
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<phoe>
shka_: especially for pure/mostly pure functions
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<shka_>
phoe: yes, fancy trace preserves input objects and if you are avoiding mutation you can inspect
<shka_>
and it is rather handy
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<White_Flame>
and debuggers usually aren't that great in threaded environments, or in things where you could have I/O timeouts
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<no-defun-allowed>
Is it possible to use pprint dispatch without the pretty printing stuff?
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<no-defun-allowed>
I'm guessing it isn't, as I can't clear a pprint-dispatch table.
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<jackdaniel>
while I feel like a cave man when I'm putting (print "foo" *debug-io*) to debug a program (or break to introspect the environment with the debugger), I have to say that it gives me a good insight of how program works. I don't think that relying only on a debugger (even a superior debugger) would be as effective
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<jackdaniel>
otoh it does sound like a closed mindest on my part, so :)
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<beach>
I do that too, but that's just because the tools at my disposal are mediocre.
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<Xach>
the subsequent waves are not equal to the pioneers
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<jmercouris>
sorry, brain freeze, I even wrote it earlier
<Bike>
(subtypep (type-of x) y) is just (typep x y) but worse
<jmercouris>
I want to be able to accept subtypes
<Bike>
what do you mean?
<jmercouris>
if I define a type B that is a subtype of A
<Bike>
(typep 0 'integer) will be true, obviously, even though 0 is also of type fixnum
<jmercouris>
I want the user to be able to supply A or B
<jmercouris>
maybe subtypep is not what I think it is
<Bike>
could you explain a higher level view of what you're trying to do?
<jmercouris>
I am trying to validate user input for users configuring things in Nyxt
<jmercouris>
to check that the user input is of a specified type
<Bike>
that sounds like a job for typep.
<jmercouris>
OK, I will trust your judgement
<Bike>
i mean, if you have a class A and a class B, and A is a subclass of B, and x is an instance of A
<Bike>
(typep x B) is true
<Bike>
that's what you're concerned about, right?
<jmercouris>
Ah, yes
<jmercouris>
that is it in fact
<Bike>
yeah, typep doesn't just check the direct class (the result of class-of)
<jmercouris>
OK, good to know, thank you
<Bike>
you have to go out of your way to do that, because it's kind of a weird thing to do
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<Bike>
violates whatchamacallit substitutibility
<Bike>
Liskov
<jmercouris>
ah, yes, the candy bar suitability
<jmercouris>
ah, didn't know this had a name, now I know
<Bike>
it's the kind of thing that's in theoretical texts that aren't read by very many actual programmers :v
<Bike>
you can tell because the definitions use greek symbols
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<jackdaniel>
damn lambda ,)
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* edgar-rft
is the lamb of da
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<ym>
Hi. When I put let-definition of array which is initialized with initial-element inside of do, I have re-initialized array each iteration. I'm sure SBCL optimizes such definition so that it won't allocate memory for array each iteration, but how do I check it?
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<Xach>
ym: i don't think it's a matter of optimization, but a matter of specification - the initial-element is evaluated only once to initialize, not repeatedly.
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<Xach>
ym: you can check by profiling the memory growth, but that is not super-simple
<Xach>
you could also check by tracing the array creation (this would be easiest if you wrap array creation with a function of your own)
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<Xach>
e.g. (defun make-my-array () (break) (make-array 42 ...))
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<ym>
Checked. Array being created each iteration.
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<Xach>
ym: Ok. I think I have misunderstood your description, then. What does the code look like, if you can share it?
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<dlowe>
it's true that you don't *have* to use the basic reader on a repl
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<pve>
I think a separate REPL reader is a pretty neat idea
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<rpg>
phoe: therep?
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<phoe>
rpg: uhhhh what
<phoe>
I am here
<rpg>
phoe: It's OK, I just figured it out -- I was having troubles with cl4py with undefined functions. Then I dug around and figured out that macros (for reasons that are obvious when I think about it) are not available
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<rpg>
But it was pretty puzzling until I figured that out.
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<phoe>
I am now curious why I would get called for cl4py!
<phoe>
pve: that'll almost work, lispworks doesn't let you defun on keywords for whatever reason
<phoe>
s/almost work/work almost everywhere/
<pve>
phoe: I did not know that
<pve>
well for lispworks one would have to put the functions in another package then
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<rpg>
phoe: Sorry -- somehow I got you and marco confused in my head!
<phoe>
or write a similar reader macro!
<phoe>
gasp
<phoe>
I have no idea how you could confuse us two, he's the cooler and smarter one and weighs much less
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<pve>
phoe: but does the spec say anything about defun on keywords?
<phoe>
that's a hack, but it shouldn't complain now
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<pve>
phoe: more of a hack than the previous thing?
<phoe>
both are equally a hack
<pve>
yes
<pve>
but that's a hack I can live with, to be honest
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<sgithens>
I just noticed that the quickdocs powering the quicklisp search from the quicklist webisite has been shutdown... what is the current suggested way of searching quicklisp modules?