<borei>
working on the logging library, file logging pretty much completed, was trying to log to local syslog, but found that i can't write to "/dev/log" socket.
<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<no-defun-allowed>
kreyren: Mother of McCarthy...
<drmeister>
kreyren: My instructions assumed that you had already started ecl using: ecl and you have the > prompt.
<drmeister>
Say you have a hello-world.cl that looks like:
<kreyren>
using the `(print "Hello")` works, but i need ecl to run it and exit true unless specified otherwise where using `ecl --load file` starts an interactive session
<no-defun-allowed>
borei: /dev/log is a Unix socket and not a file. I can't remember if there are libraries for working with Unix sockets though.
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<no-defun-allowed>
kreyren: You can add (sys:quit) at the end of the file to make ECL quit after evaluating the rest.
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, that still outputs `;;; Loading "/home/kreyren/test.cl"`
<kreyren>
which is unwanted as i want to use it as a part of a backend to compile the software cross-platform
<no-defun-allowed>
ecl -q --load foo.cl
<no-defun-allowed>
Oh, just do ecl --shell foo.cl instead
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, also leaves unwanted space (ecl --shell foo.cl)
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<no-defun-allowed>
Well, do you want the quotes as well? If not, (write-line "...") will just write a line.
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<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, perfect! thanks ^-^
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<borei>
too tight to sbcl, good for now, but can be a bit restrictive later
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<borei>
hmmm, there is no sb-bsd-socket package definition
<borei>
am i missing something ?
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<borei>
any suggestion is more then welcome
<borei>
interesting, it was working before, in sbcl 2.0.4, but got broken in 2.0.8
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<akoana>
borei: there is sb-posix:syslog
<kreyren>
How can i execute `(write-line "...")` through ecl subshell? where the usage is http://ix.io/2zl4 trying to adapt the code base to work on as many turing complete systems as possible
<borei>
non of the contrib package can be found in my system
<akoana>
borei: example: (sb-posix:syslog 1 "test message ~d from sbcl" 42) ;; 1 is the priority
<no-defun-allowed>
Why are you using ECL...to script...um...something to do with Makefiles and Rust?
<no-defun-allowed>
(And, what makes you think it's more portable than CPython or the POSIX shell?)
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<borei>
sorted out issue with packages they need to be "required" first :-)
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<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, because i want to use rust to mess with it's embedding project for my weird implementation of bedrock linux-inspired project in something more production ready where the Makefile and cargo-make are using shell for scripting of repository management
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<no-defun-allowed>
I thought in Rust they used one too many commas to delimit things, but here you are with none.
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, > or the POSIX shell? < -- Because systems from 1971 usually only have bourne shell (bsh) without a good way to get POSIX sh
<kreyren>
and i hate python~
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, eh? O.o
<no-defun-allowed>
An off-topic joke, though I need some time to parse that.
<kreyren>
o.o
<kreyren>
any relevant info to the implementation is appreciated btw ^-^
<no-defun-allowed>
I don't have any information, I'm just really confused right now.
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<kreyren>
o.o
<kreyren>
what about
<no-defun-allowed>
It seems very, very unlikely that you are going to run Common Lisp (via ECL) or Rust code on systems from 1971.
<kreyren>
from my point of view i don't see why ECL is a problem there and Rust is the challenging part as it's embedding could use some work
<no-defun-allowed>
ECL uses C99, which probably wouldn't have any compilers targeting or running on a 70s machine. (Well, someone with too much free time probably did write one, but I haven't heard of it.)
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, what do you suggest then?
<no-defun-allowed>
Finding a language that would run on such a machine.
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, i though that lisp is that language O.o apparently people who use legacy systems are using lisp on them
<no-defun-allowed>
Not Common Lisp.
<kreyren>
ecl apparently
<no-defun-allowed>
Definitely not ECL if you don't have a C99 compiler.
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, is there anything more portable then ECL in terms of lisp then?
<no-defun-allowed>
I can't think of any implementation that would support an older C compiler, or would fit in memory on an old machine.
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<kreyren>
x.x
<kreyren>
like elisp works there..
<kreyren>
but that seems as terrible implementation
<no-defun-allowed>
You can run GNU Emacs on a machine from 1971?
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, yes #emacs keeps telling me that when i am researching for emacs contribution that there are grandmas and grandpas capable of hiring a hitman that if i broke GNU Emacs on their system
<kreyren>
apparently that happend but no source was provided O.o
<no-defun-allowed>
I must really have a bad grip on time; GNU Emacs was released 14 years after the machine you have in mind.
<kreyren>
which is why GNU Emacs is using bsh for the repository management and compilation as i was told
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, i was told that these people contributed to it to make it work on their systems
<no-defun-allowed>
That also seems very, very unlikely.
<kreyren>
apparently using that a frontend to their system
<loke>
What system are you talking about? 14 years priot to GNU Emacs? Would this me a PDP-1?
<kreyren>
LAX-something last time i checked
<no-defun-allowed>
A VAX?
<_death>
C is from 1972...
<kreyren>
no apparently some old system made by Peter Lax
<kreyren>
lemmeh check if i can find backlog
<loke>
The first VAX came out in 1977. GNU Emacs was released in 1985. However, there were earlier emacses, and there definitely was one for VMS on VAX.
<no-defun-allowed>
A more on-topic question: with CFFI, how should I get at a slot of a struct in an array?
<loke>
no-defun-allowed: You have an array of structs?
<loke>
no-defun-allowed: It's been a while, but something like (cffi:foreign-slot-value (cffi:mem-aref ARRAY (:struct foo) N) '(:struct foo) NAME)
<no-defun-allowed>
Thanks!
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* kreyren
is researching VAX Common Lisp
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<beach>
kreyren: Do you have a VAX to run it on?
<kreyren>
beach, nope but i will implement a CI to run it on VAX machine if everything goes as planned
<beach>
What is a CI?
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<no-defun-allowed>
A continuous integration script, which runs when you push code to an online repository. Hopefully it uses an emulator.
<beach>
I see. Thanks!
<kreyren>
beach, Continuous Integration
<beach>
Right, thanks.
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<jackdaniel>
no-defun-allowed: indeed ecl formally requires c99 compiler, but factually it works with the earlier standard
<no-defun-allowed>
What was before C99? C89? I think that is still some time after the age of VAXen.
<jackdaniel>
in fact it was originally written to work (among other things) on a vax machine, however that would be a surprise if it had worked there /now/ :)
<jackdaniel>
C89, yes. And it was like this from the beginning (and it still worked on VAX), so there you have it. But I don't know much about vax myself except for the name ;)
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<jackdaniel>
what is the best structure to check for membership (a set)?
<jackdaniel>
lists and vectors would require in pessimistic case checking all elements
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<jackdaniel>
alternatively I could create a hash table with keys and some dummy values, but that sounds yuck
<no-defun-allowed>
If you are okay with insertion having side effects, a hash table with elements as keys. If not, fset or cl-hamt or something.
<jackdaniel>
thanks
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<_death>
you may also use a sorted vector, or a bit set (for dense sets)
<jackdaniel>
right, but objects doesn't have any applicable order (basically they are standard object instances)
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<_death>
you can define an arbitrary order..
<_death>
but a hash table is a good way, if it supports your equality test
<jackdaniel>
arbitrary order? what do you mean?
<jackdaniel>
you have three opaque instances #<a> #<b> #<c>, by what means do you compare them?
<jackdaniel>
some implementations with non-moving gc could give you a pointer
<jackdaniel>
but that's it (and it is not portable)
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<_death>
right, if they are opaque then you may not be able to order them.. this would also rule out fset btw
<_death>
or at least make it degenerate into a linear search
<jackdaniel>
alright, I'll stick with a hash table, thanks
<phoe>
I use an EQ hash table for that where values are eq to keys
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<phoe>
works well enough as a hashset
<_death>
then your objects shouldn't be characters or numbers
<_death>
or NIL
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<_death>
unless you use the second value
<_death>
I usually use T as the value
<phoe>
_death: yes, sorry, EQ is the best for standard objects; please adjust your test accordingly depending on the type of your objects
<phoe>
;; and I always use the secondary value
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<iissaacc>
Could anyone familiar with Parenscript tell me why (new (-Person age shoe-size)) is giving me new(Person(age, shoeSize); instead of new Person(age, shoeSize); ?
<iissaacc>
The example is from the manual, so it should work but maybe I'm doing something wrong
<phoe>
iissaacc: (describe 'new)
<phoe>
are you sure you are using the ps-js:new symbol and not one from another package?
<phoe>
or rather, parenscript symbol, not ps-js one
<iissaacc>
let me check
<iissaacc>
yes, sure
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<iissaacc>
hmm ok i tried it within the parenscript package and it worked so something is going on...
<no-defun-allowed>
"but are not designed to be compatible with each other (even though some are mostly compatible)" They are compatible! It wouldn't be a very Common Lisp otherwise.
<no-defun-allowed>
And by the sounds of things, you're only parameterizing the line to write, which would best be left to echo.
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, i meant in lisp overview not in just common lisp if that makes sense
<kreyren>
alike elisp using cl- prefix for common lisp functions that it's reimplementing
<no-defun-allowed>
Yes, those are different languages.
<iissaacc>
i realised you need to :use #:parenscript rather than only :import-from #:parenscript #:ps
<no-defun-allowed>
Implementations of Common Lisp implement the same language. An implementation of Emacs implements a different language...
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<beach>
iissaacc: I advice against :USE-ing any package other than the CL package.
<beach>
iissaacc: With package-local nicknames, you can have short package prefixes.
<iissaacc>
yes thats what I was trying to avoid, but I don't want to have to write a prefix in front of every parenscript symbol
<iissaacc>
I think i have a macro that will solve that problem though
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<no-defun-allowed>
kreyren: So even if that implementation did work, it wouldn't do very much that you couldn't do before. (And there is an edit button somewhere on a comment.)
<beach>
Wow, the parenscript package has a nickname of PS. That is really bad.
<no-defun-allowed>
Please consult this screenshot for where to find the edit button.
<beach>
iissaacc: That is a tiny inconvenience compared to the conflicts you will have to resolve when you :USE more than one package like that, and compared to the breakage you will have to fix when the parenscript package exports a new symbol that will conflict with yours.
<beach>
iissaacc: For a person reading your code, the package prefix contains valuable information. And if you have two different packages with symbols with the same name, the package prefix immediately says where it is from.
<_death>
yes, it has all the issues of :use and more, for example it will also substitute your symbols for internal symbols
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<_death>
*substitute internal symbols for your symbols
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* kreyren
was ordering food x.x reading the backlog
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<beach>
iissaacc: And, though you are not likely to use any of the packages I am the author of, if you tried, you would have a hard time resolving all the conflicts if you were to :USE it.
<iissaacc>
i see, i see
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<beach>
And, I maintain that the fact that parenscript uses a general nickname of PS is really really bad.
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, how is the edit button relevant?
<beach>
Imagine if I authored a PostScript package and gave it the same nickname.
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<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, where the current implementation is using the cargo-make backend to execute ecl with arguments and parses a script that is saved as a temporary file to be executed
<schweers>
I always wondered what the point of package-nicknames were
<_death>
beach: that's been the case for a long time now
<beach>
_death: What has?
<_death>
beach: that parenscript has a ps nickname
<beach>
That doesn't make any better.
<beach>
The author should be spanked.
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<schweers>
It seems like a way to use up two names in a global namespace, instead of just one.
<beach>
schweers: I totally agree.
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<schweers>
Do package local nicknames shadow regular nickames? I.e. can I load parenscript and still have a package local nickname of ps pointing to something else?
<jackdaniel>
schweers: yes
<iissaacc>
so if parenscript function names used keywords instead, that would be better?
<jackdaniel>
they take precedence
<schweers>
So that makes the short PS nickname a little less horrible than I first thought.
<beach>
iissaacc: That's the only thing that would be worse.
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<beach>
iissaacc: Because, then, a second system doing the same thing would silently clobber the first one.
<iissaacc>
so then it seems like you can't have embedded languages without having to write pkg: in front of everything
<iissaacc>
which seems kind of ugly...
<beach>
iissaacc: You should write the package prefix, as I explained.
<beach>
iissaacc: Unless, of course, you don't ever intend for your code to be used by anyone else.
<jackdaniel>
many people do put use in their packages. that makes only sense though for packages you control yourself
<_death>
beach: I think what iissaacc meant is that parenscript (which generates javascript) would interpret keyword symbols as primitives
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<jackdaniel>
imagine two libraries changing exported symbols - suddently you have a conflict
<beach>
iissaacc: Or read by anyone else. Then it won't matter what you do.
<phoe>
iissaacc: package-local nicknames
<beach>
_death: Ah, OK.
<phoe>
you don't need to write package-foo-bar-something: if you can write p: inside your package
<beach>
phoe: That would still be ugly according to iissaacc, as we have discussed already.
<iissaacc>
_death thats how the S-SQL in postmodern works
<_death>
iissaacc: parenscript is fine (apart from the ps nickname).. you just need to import-from the symbols that you want
<iissaacc>
right
<phoe>
iissaacc: the issue is that in Lisp, primitives are not really keywords most of the time
<no-defun-allowed>
kreyren: It is usually more polite to edit comments than make more comments with your changes.
<phoe>
SQL has a fixed set of operators/keywords and I find it sorta meaningful to use keywords there, since you can't define new ones
<no-defun-allowed>
Also, ECL is not doing very much in your case, other than writing a line you give it. It would be more useful to give it arbitrary Lisp code.
<phoe>
;; when you do, it's already PL/SQL
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, ah true, but considering the current environment it's probably better to kept alike for archiving
<phoe>
whereas in JS/Parenscript I would find it kinda weird to mix functions named with keywords and functions named with non-keyword symbols
<no-defun-allowed>
kreyren: And someone can see the edited versions (by clicking on the comment date-time, which is marked as "edited").
<phoe>
especially since no one really does that in Common Lisp, which Parenscript is inspired by and lives in
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, true O.o
<iissaacc>
yeah i see what you mean
<phoe>
either code contains no keywords in function positions whatsoever
<no-defun-allowed>
I meant the older versions.
<phoe>
(like in CL)
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, i update the OP then
<phoe>
or it's 100% keywords in function positions, like S-SQL
<iissaacc>
alright well I learned something, thanks folks
<_death>
until a new SQL standard comes along, or some dbms extends SQL with its own primitives...
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<iissaacc>
i see a lot of :use in peoples code so i kind of thought it was all g, but it's like from x import * in python
<phoe>
_death: that will most likely need S-SQL support/update anyway
<phoe>
iissaacc: :USE was very common and recommended before PLNs became ubiquitous
<phoe>
but :USE also has its own big issues
<jackdaniel>
ubiquitous?
<_death>
phoe: that's what I mean.. then the set of symbols is not fixed
<phoe>
_death: yes, I see; I meant, not user-extensible
<jackdaniel>
I understand what you said, but is it supported /everywhere/?
<jackdaniel>
or is it supported by 3-5 implementations
<phoe>
jackdaniel: okay, it is supported *everywhere enough* for my own tastes
<phoe>
it is supported now on SBCL, CCL, ECL, Clasp, ABCL, ACL, and will be supported on LW 7.2 AFAIR
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<phoe>
that's 6+1
<phoe>
CLISP has a waiting PR that implements PLNs, too.
<jackdaniel>
so that sounds more like a "gaining traction" than "ubiquitous" ,)
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<schweers>
If I recall correctly the current released version of CCL does not yet support PLNs.
<jackdaniel>
don't get me wrong, I would still recommend using PLN;
<phoe>
schweers: it does, 1.12 supports them
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, updated OP hopefully it makes more sense now ^-^
<schweers>
Oh, cool! Is that relatively recent?
<schweers>
Hm, april. So no
<no-defun-allowed>
kreyren: Also, may I ask, have you considered if the program you're adding support to will run on the target machine?
<phoe>
the PR was merged in april 2019
<phoe>
a release was made in april 2020
<_death>
the clisp package on archlinux is also deficient in that it wasn't compiled with modules.. like asdf
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<_death>
and then quicklisp's asdf is 2.26.. so things like package-inferred-systems won't work
<kreyren>
no-defun-allowed, i did and i expect possible issues on the embedded side of things that i am willing to help with atm
<kreyren>
If i don't have the resources to implement that i will fall back to C-base makefile which i already have the method implemented through mentioned in the post
<kreyren>
but i expect it to not be an issue
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<phoe>
jackdaniel: right, I'll use "gaining traction" now, it's a better fit
<schweers>
I have an instance of a regular user-defined class in a constant. With SBCL this works fine, but CCL tells me that “No MAKE-LOAD-FORM method is defined for #<CSV-TOOLS::CSV-CONFIG #x3020040E5E6D>”. What does this mean?
* schweers
makes a note to self: first check clhs, then ask in #lisp
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<loke>
schweers: It's trying to persist an instance of your class in the FASL file, which may not work.
<schweers>
So it seems, yes. I’m reading the clhs on MAKE-LOAD-FORM. It seems to me that SBCL does more work on this than CCL does. So I’ve at the very least learned that I’m relying on SBCL to do something for me, it seems.
<loke>
contrapunctus: Are you the troll from c.l.l?
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<beach>
contrapunctus: I didn't use it, but reading the documentation, I got the impression that the class hierarchy has to remain intact when you restore a checkpoint. I may be wrong of course.
<contrapunctus>
loke: I've never been on c.l.l. 🤔 what gives you that impression?
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<contrapunctus>
beach: oooh, that looks interesting 😀
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<beach>
Thanks!
<beach>
It is basically logging every transaction, so that you can create an equivalent state by replaying the log from a fresh image.
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<beach>
And since the log only mentions protocol operations, the class hierarchy does not have to remain intact between the image that created the log and the one replaying it.
<beach>
The new image has to support the same operations of course.
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<schweers>
Should (progn (hunchentoot:start (make-instance 'hunchentoot:easy-acceptor :port 8080)) (drakma:http-request "http://localhost:8080/")) work on CCL? It does on SBCL, but CCL signals a connection refused condition.
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<phoe>
schweers: which CCL version?
<no-defun-allowed>
I guess that would be non-deterministic if HUNCHENTOOT:START starts a thread to do its work.
<schweers>
The current one, just downloaded it
<schweers>
1.16 I believe
<phoe>
1.16 doesn't exist AFAIK
<schweers>
It has the same problem if I wait first
<phoe>
1.12 is the newest
<schweers>
Yes, you’re right. 1.12. I was mistaken
<no-defun-allowed>
For kicks, try testing both a few more times; my guess is that you'll get inconsistent behavior for both with that code.
<schweers>
Let me put it this way: I started hunchentoot on ccl and opened it default page in a browser, which works fine.
<schweers>
If I then (aferwards) use drakma, I get a connection refused condition
<phoe>
oh
<schweers>
I first also thought that it would be a threading issue, but that doesn’t seem to be the case. At least not the way thought it might.
<phoe>
on CCL, localhost binds to ::1 instead
<phoe>
explicitly use 127.0.0.1 instead
<schweers>
netstat -tulpen tells me that port 8080 is indeed open
<schweers>
Hm, but ::1 also binds to 127.0.0.1
<no-defun-allowed>
Oh, so it's not really in a PROGN, and you take a non-negligible amount of time between both, so timing shouldn't be a problem.
<phoe>
does it? they are different addresses on different protocols
<schweers>
phoe: I can reproduce what you just posted with firefox
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<phoe>
hmmmm
<schweers>
At least I think I did it correctly
<phoe>
"In IPv4, an IP address of all zeroes has a special meaning; it refers to the host itself, and is used when a device doesn't know its own address. In IPv6 this concept has been formalized, and the all-zeroes address (0:0:0:0:0:0:0:0) is named the unspecified address."
<phoe>
that is not localhost though
<schweers>
So yes, if I explicitly use "127.0.0.1" instead of "localhost" it works.
<phoe>
ipv6 localhost is ::1
<phoe>
so this might be a CCL bug
<flip214>
phoe: do you have localhost in /etc/hosts with ::1?
<phoe>
flip214: I do
<schweers>
Oh, I accidentally uttered something untrue
<schweers>
netstat reports 0.0.0.0
<schweers>
So it indeed binds to ipv4 only
<schweers>
Passing :address "::" to the MAKE-INSTANCE invokation on the EASY-ACCEPTOR makes it work as I want.
<schweers>
Thanks for the help!
<phoe>
oh wait, I misunderstood binding and connecting
<phoe>
binding to 0.0.0.0 makes the server accessible at all ipv4 network interfaces
<phoe>
binding to :: - at all ipv6 ifaces
<schweers>
And hence all ipv4 ifaces
<schweers>
Well, on dual-stack machines.
<schweers>
If I had paid more attention to netstat’s output, I could have avoided the question entirely.
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<jasom>
Has anyone written a set of macros that can shadow all of the CL forms that have implicit progn with a version that lets you change how the implicit progn behaves?
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<jasom>
that seems like it would be slightly easier to make portable than a correct code-walker while allowing doing some things that traditionally require a code walker
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<jasom>
but it's also a lot of work because of things like tagbody, docstrings, and declarations
<phoe>
behaves? what do you mean?
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<jasom>
simple example: transform the body of the implicit progn with (mapcar (lambda (x) `(print ,x))
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<shka_>
jasom: this does not sound useful to be honest with you
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<jasom>
fancier examples might be e.g. implementing RAII that is not bound by dynamic scope; if it's not the value returned from the progn, call the cleanup form immediately
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<jasom>
though the latter would require reimplementing a lot more than just implicit progn
<shka_>
jasom: this does not sound useful either, unwind-protect is simply better there
<jasom>
e.g. OR
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<jasom>
shka_: unwind-protect is limited to cleaning up things over a dynamic scope
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<shka_>
well, you either do that, or install finalizer
<shka_>
sorry, i am not getting it
<jasom>
shka_: finalizers are not guaranteed to run ever
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<shka_>
well, if you can't determine when to run a clean up in a dynamic scope, where you can do that?
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<shka_>
this sounds like a very niche case at best?
<shka_>
and macros and niche cases is not the great combination
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<jasom>
implementing threading and delimited continuations also want to override the progn behavior usually
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<shka_>
ok, so why not implementing your own progn in that case?
<jasom>
righ. I want to *just* implement my own progn and then plug it into let, defun *c.
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<jasom>
And I'm pretty sure a portable library could be written do to that
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<shka_>
i am sure that you are wrong here
<shka_>
let is a special symbol in lisp
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<jasom>
shka_: it would be shadowed
<shka_>
ok
<shka_>
got it
<jasom>
not-cl:let
<jasom>
rather than cl:let
<shka_>
yeah, i understand
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<shka_>
honestly, it sounds like you are trying to force CL to stop being CL and personally i never found much success with that, but good luck
<jasom>
cl-cont does a lot of things there; I may look at what they do and see if I can't factor it out into a library. They do a lot more than just changing how progn works.
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<jasom>
I am trying to force CL to stop being CL, and the fact that CL makes this so doable is something I like about it. control-flow and interning are two places that CL makes itself a bit hard to customize though.
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<shka_>
jasom: i share the sentiment, but as i mentioned earlier, it just never worked out for me all that well
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<jasom>
If I can prototype something I can explore more easily if it's a good or bad idea as compared to just sitting around thinking.
<shka_>
at this point i am simply taking lisp as is and built on top of it
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<shka_>
jasom: well, that sound like a fun thing to hack so sure, why not? :-)
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<jasom>
e.g. the "package names as symbols" reader I made let me notice that it requires gymnastics if you use it for actual heirarchal packages, as you usually want foo:bar:baz defined before foo:bar which is a chicken-and-egg problem. It did make package-local-nicknames a NOP though so that was fun.
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<Bike>
if i understand what you want here, bound declarations would make it really annoying to write
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<jasom>
Bike: what is a "bound declaration"?
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<Bike>
a declaration for something bound by the operator, e.g. in (let ((x (f))) (declare (integer x) (cons y)) ...), (integer x) is a bound declaration and (cons y) is not
<Bike>
you can't just expand that into (let ((x (f))) (my-progn (declare ...) ...)) obviously, and less obviously doing my-locally is not the same
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<jasom>
Bike: can you expand it into (let (...) (declare ...) (my-progn ...)) ?
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<Bike>
mmm probably. maybe it's not that ba
<Bike>
d
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<Bike>
i think i'd need to see an example to understand the goal here, though
<Bike>
i mean progn isn't the only way to sequence operations, obviously
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<jasom>
Bike: right OR can sequence operations that return non-null values, for example.
<jasom>
and tagbody (but that could be seen as a special case of progn)
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<Bike>
prog1/2, multiple-value-prog1, function calls
<Bike>
let*
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<Bike>
(well, and let also)
<jackdaniel>
and prog, which mixes at least few of these
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<phoe>
luckily prog has an easy macroexpansion, it's just a let/block/tagbody
<jackdaniel>
maybe the latter three expand to prog? ,)
<phoe>
oh damn
<jackdaniel>
that would be problematic, you would need to prune all tags if you expand let or block
<phoe>
only if they do not name symbol macros
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<jackdaniel>
while I've never used prog in the code, I find its universal definition quite compelling
<phoe>
I think I did once, when I was writing a simple state machine