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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<iissaacc>
I'm trying to add permessage-deflate support to hunchensocket, but I don't seem to be able to decompress the message payload with any of the deflate libraries for CL. I've put some example code here: https://paste.centos.org/view/4cbf4f54 . I must be doing something wrong but I can't figure it out
<iissaacc>
Anyone have any ideas?
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<remexre>
is there a standard class for streams, or is (satisfies input-stream-p) the best I'm gonna get?
<beach>
remexre: If you go to the symbol index in the Common Lisp HyperSpec and look under `s', you will find this entry.
<beach>
And you can use the permuted index to see any symbol that has "stream" in it.
<remexre>
yeah, I'd assumed it didn't exist (under that name) since I clicked stream and got a glossary entry; I need to start remembering that italics =/= there is no bold version...
<beach>
You are right that it is often unhelpful that the links go to the glossary, especially since the glossary often does not link back to any relevant section.
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<flip214>
how far did phoe's ultra spec get?
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<JohnTalent>
So you guys debate over EQL till you've reached the OR operator in it but do you people actually do real world things with lisp?
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<no-defun-allowed>
"Having asked about the possibility that there are real people out there who use LISP (as opposed to AI People who are known to be non-real) and having received no answers, I can only conclude that LISP is not being used and that it is not, therefore, a real language."
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<mseddon>
wah
<no-defun-allowed>
The closing words of "The key of Lisp", a short-lived article series in Lisp Pointers.
<mseddon>
oh, heh. I thought it was far less self-aware than that.
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<mseddon>
I just read the first one, it's quite thoughtful actually.
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<markasoftware>
How do I get a char code as ascii? I don't want utf-8, which is what char-code in sbcl does by default
<sm2n>
utf8 is a strict superset of ascii...
<markasoftware>
oh the issue seems to be in read-line, nevermind
<markasoftware>
seems you are right sm2n
<aeth>
you restrict it to (unsigned-byte 7) and do something if you're outside of that range.
<sm2n>
that is insufficient
<aeth>
CHECK-TYPE? it works. SETF AREF? No, the array might become an octet one
<sm2n>
actually, nvm
<sm2n>
I had a brain fart, I was thinking some of the following bytes after a multibyte indicator could have a 0 in msb
<sm2n>
but that's not how utf8 works
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<schweers>
The hyperspec claims that a function name is either "A symbol or a list (setf symbol) ...". Is SETF the only instance where a list is valid, or is this a more general mechanism?
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<no-defun-allowed>
Some implementations allow for lists starting with other symbols (eg SBCL), but it's not standard.
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<jdz>
"Claim" is not the right word, "asserts" might be more appropriate.
<jdz>
Or just "states."
<jdz>
(It seems to me that "claims" can be challenged.)
<phoe>
schweers: in portable CL, it's only SETF
<schweers>
I’m slightly confused about how it works for SETF anyway, so be honest.
<schweers>
I think I put that in a confusing way. I know how to use it, and it’s super convienient. It just doesn’t quite fit my mental model of how function names and DEFUN work
<schweers>
And by extension DEFGENERIC and DEFMETHOD.
<phoe>
a name is a name, it doesn't matter much for the underlying system whether you call it setf-foo or (setf foo)
<schweers>
Although, I never new that #'(setf foo) could work
<phoe>
(fdefinition '(setf foo)) also works
<schweers>
*never knew
<schweers>
huh, interesting.
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<phoe>
a name is a name
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<jackdaniel>
this is a very ugly exception in the language
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<flip214>
when I have a TCP socket (via Hunchentoot's SEND-HEADERS), how would I check for it still being alive?
<flip214>
when I write some data I can see an error on FINISH-OUTPUT, but if I don't want to write?
<schweers>
I’m not sure that UNIX can do that, but I might be mistaken.
<flip214>
schweers: well, is there something like STREAM-READABLY-P?
<jackdaniel>
maybe stream-listen?
<schweers>
Oh, forget what I said.
<flip214>
AFAIU PEEK-CHAR might block, and I can't have that
<schweers>
Maybe you can do select/poll/epoll on the socket and check for errors?
<schweers>
I don’t know how to do that in Common Lisp off the top of my head though
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<flip214>
jackdaniel: "binds to interface HOST on PORT" ??
<flip214>
hmmm, unix-simple-poll :output doesn't see when a socket has been closed... it says happily T
<jdz>
flip214: Closed on which end?
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<flip214>
jdz: client-side. CLOSE_WAIT isn't noticed in poll().
<jdz>
flip214: So your code closes the socket, and then uses unix-simple-poll to see if it's closed?
<flip214>
jdz: no, the client side closes the socket, but my thread on the hunchentoot side doesn't notice until the next write.
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<jdz>
flip214: Oh, your side is not the client side. Anyway, sounds reasonable to me; I'd look at the implementation of unix-simple-poll to see what exactly it is doing.
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<jdz>
Not sure if socket being closed is a pending error or not, and whether `errorfds' needs to be used to detect the situation. SBCL does not use `errorfds' parameter in unix-simple-poll, anyway.
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<ldb>
good evening
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<ebrasca>
ldb: Hi
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<ldb>
ebrasca: hello
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<phoe>
heyyy
<phoe>
flip214: stuff like this is exactly why I decided to screw raw sockets and learned to love zeromq
<phoe>
and pzmq is a really nice library for handling it
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<flip214>
Can I check for NIL in ETYPECASE? (NULL ...) or (NIL ...) don't work
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<flip214>
ah, (NULL ...) does the trick after all.
<Bike>
yeah, null = (eql nil). nil as a type is the bottom type, so a nil clause in typecase will be unreachable
<mseddon>
oh, the infinite meanings of nil. :)
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<mseddon>
to be fair it's not too bad, although generic functions and nil == null vs empty list trips me up
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<mseddon>
at least in the type system it has one meaning, _|_
<contrapunctus>
mseddon: how do generic functions trip you up? 🤔
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<mseddon>
not generic functions themselves, but that nil can mean both null and the empty list. meaning you can get interesting effects
<phoe>
mseddon: what do you mean?
<Bike>
you mean, both false and the empty list?
<mseddon>
yeah
<phoe>
oh, that
<phoe>
it's practical
<mseddon>
yeah it kinda makes sense. and I'm not sure if schemes #t #f () etc is a better approach
<mseddon>
I like nil punning
<mseddon>
but it snagged me a couple of times since I picked up lisp again
<jackdaniel>
another ugly exception ,)
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<ldb>
Well, multiple return value
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<mseddon>
oh yes, it's 100% user error on my part :)
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<mseddon>
but years of searching for a 'better' dialect, and I'm back here, which says something that while it's quite quirky, the quirks have been extremely well tamed to fit together.
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<jackdaniel>
ldb: is it a value that you return multiple times?
<jackdaniel>
what with it? ,)
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<Xach>
I automated my bug reporting a bit and I'm blasting out a bunch of github issues. I hope it doesn't bug people.
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<easye>
Xach: giving people more updates that they can unsubscribe from is a great use of automation. Is this the Quicklisp bug reporting?
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<Xach>
Ja
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<Xach>
So it's semiautomatic. It's doing what I already do manually - when I see a new failure, I send it to the project. But I was hand-writing the titles and descriptions, and copy-and-pasting links. Now a program scrapes it all together - i still pull the trigger on submitting it, and double-check that I haven't already reported it.
<decentyousername>
Is it alright to not setf a variable, after calling #'sort on it, because the object is being modified anyway. Or is that not portable?
<jackdaniel>
you must always assign the variable
<jackdaniel>
fact that it is a destructive operation means, that your variable may i.e contain the last cons of the resulting list
<jackdaniel>
it is the return value contains the reference to the sorted list
<jackdaniel>
our CI failed, because roswell is coded in C, banzai
<decentyousername>
Ok, so destructive really means it fucking destroys the object and you should not longer use that object, because who knows how it got messed up, right?
<jackdaniel>
scratch the CI part
<jackdaniel>
it's for another channel
<jackdaniel>
I don't know what it does while destryoing the object, could be fucking
* decentyousername
unreads the CI part.
<decentyousername>
[-] _ [-]
<White_Flame>
decentyousername: it reuses the cons cells in whatever way it wants to.
<decentyousername>
so I can't rely on it.
<decentyousername>
roger that!
<White_Flame>
so yeah, your original variable is pointing to some arbitrary cons cell that may be anywhere in the list, or may not even part of the list anymore
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<decentyousername>
I'm talking about sequences in general, but if we want to use lists as an example that's alright.
<White_Flame>
yeah, arrays are likely "safer" in that regard, but there are no guarantees. The function is allowed to cons up a new one, too
<jackdaniel>
if you don't want to destroy the object, you may copy sequence first
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<_death>
decentyousername: it _may_ modify the object.. but then it may not.. so it could return a copy of the sequence and if you don't use that result, you don't get the sorted sequence.. sometimes the standard mandates in-place modification, but not in the case of SORT
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<_death>
also, if you want to get a good shiver down your spine, consider the following section and the amount of code that's "unaware" of it
<_death>
this is not limited to Lisp, of course, or even to programming..
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<Bike>
does that actually come up much?
<decentyousername>
how do I open links in weechat? Does anyone know that?
* decentyousername
starts typing in the url manually
<_death>
I don't know how often it happens, but when it does..
<_death>
it's one more good reason to use nondestructive variants by default
<decentyousername>
_daeth: those examples sure are scary
<decentyousername>
But I'm all about that efficiency. I need to use bitvectors everywhere or my programs will be too slow.
<decentyousername>
(irony-mode -1)
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<shaman_king>
lisp is terrible.
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<jackdaniel>
it is; what now?
<shaman_king>
hi
<shaman_king>
are you the guy from pauldotcom ?
<jackdaniel>
no
<shaman_king>
why not
<shaman_king>
lisp sucks ass.
<shaman_king>
pussy
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<Steeve>
Thank you
<jackdaniel>
pleasure
<_death>
may want to generalize the banmask, phoe banned him the other day as well
<jackdaniel>
that is beyond my irc skill :)
<Steeve>
Was doing same thing in another channel and I said 12:29:19 Steeve | Think about all the cool stuff you could learn if you directed the time you're spending doing this....into learning new stuff
<Steeve>
Was not effective
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<ebrasca>
Steeve: I think he may be more interested in someting like "Imagine how much more you can ruin others lifes if you learn new skills".
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<Steeve>
yeah so much effort, for no return...*and* being a negative influence on other peoples' days
<Steeve>
no good
<defunkydrummer>
@Steeve i've seen worse attitudes to be honest
<defunkydrummer>
in any case, it will happen to all communities not just this one
<defunkydrummer>
by the way, good morning from the far away country of Peru
<Steeve>
Good morning - hello from the United States!
<ebrasca>
it is 22:07 ...
<defunkydrummer>
@ebrasca there's an old, ancient rule that it's always "good morning" on the internet
<defunkydrummer>
i would like to know if somebody has actually used the LSP (language server protocol) plugin out there for visual studio code, and how acceptable was it. I use SLIME, btw. But i'm planning to teach CL to one or two devs in my team and perhaps this wouold make the learning curve gentler. But i don't have any idea of how acceptable is that plugin or the experience.
<ebrasca>
I think in Peru it is like 15:10
<defunkydrummer>
or in any case if somebody has used another "modern" (read: popular with the younger generation) editor for CL development, i'm all ears for knowning how good was the experience
<defunkydrummer>
@ebrasca indeed
<ebrasca>
defunkydrummer: I have see one friend to try lisp with Atom.
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<ebrasca>
defunkydrummer: I failed to convince him to program in lisp.
<phoe>
defunkydrummer: I know that sublime has its plugin that's in development
<phoe>
same with atom
<phoe>
both of them use swank
<defunkydrummer>
@ebrasca but have you tried the atom plugin? is it ... acceptable ?
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<defunkydrummer>
well, if it uses swank that a good thing
<defunkydrummer>
i mean, if it's able to jump to definitions, inspect almost any value, and be able to inspect stack frames, and macroexpand step by step, it would be fine for educational purposes IMO
<defunkydrummer>
i wonder if the atom or sublime plugins comply with these features
<phoe>
never used them extensively, so I cannot really say much about them
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<phoe>
I guess you could download and check them out, and/or open some github issues along the way
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<contrapunctus>
I was just thinking...what if I made a shell script called, say, `cl`, meant to be used as an hash bang interpreter for Lisp scripts? It'd load the file using the first installed Lisp it can find...and voilà, portable Lisp scripts! (Well, if it were that easy, I'm guessing someone would have done it by now?)
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<contrapunctus>
sm2n: lol, thanks. I knew there are like ten solutions for the task, but never investigated any in depth.
<Xach>
i found cl-launch too difficult to use and had to make something simpler to make progress
<phoe>
I think that roswell also attempts to solve this problem
<ebrasca>
What about Mezzano?
<ebrasca>
Then you don't need any of this libreryes.
<ebrasca>
Do some of this methods use lisp as some tipe of daemon?
<contrapunctus>
I guess I can just use the SBCL hash bang invocation for personal scripts which I don't need to distribute... 🤔
<Xach>
contrapunctus: or use emacs!
<Xach>
and call functions
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* ebrasca
thinks about structure editor vs plain text editor.
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<defunkydrummer>
@¢ontrapuntcus you can always create some simple bash script that takes the name of the lisp script and hands it over to SBCL or other CL implementation so it's loaded and executed immediately
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<akoana>
contrapunctus: I use a simple bash script for SBCL (as defunkydrummer suggested), see https://termbin.com/92ed
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<contrapunctus>
defunkydrummer, akoana: isn't that basically the cl-launch approach, then? 🤔
<defunkydrummer>
@contrapunctus no idea. I haven't seen cl-launch. To be honest, this approach is so simple, i don't see any need for a special library or program
<akoana>
contrapunctus: hmm, I don't know/use cl-launch, sorry
<defunkydrummer>
additionally, i seldom use Lisp for "scripts", i usually use it for full on systems that need to run as a service; in that case i configure things so the program runs as a UNIX service
<defunkydrummer>
i mean, Lisp is not really a "shell scripting" language, although you can use it as such
<contrapunctus>
defunkydrummer, akoana: it seems to do this very thing, except implementation-portably
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<akoana>
contrapunctus: probably, however I agree with defunkydrummer, it is so simple, no need for a library
<defunkydrummer>
@contrapunctus, well, if it's portable, not a bad thing
<defunkydrummer>
i mean, to each his own; it's good to know it exists. Just like roswell -- i don't need it, but it's good to know it exists and it works
<defunkydrummer>
somebody will find it useful and will benefit from it
<akoana>
well said
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