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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<pillton>
Good morning young sir.
<beach>
Hey, so you are back to stay?
<pillton>
I am going to try and be a regular. I miss the discussions and the references that come up.
<beach>
I understand.
<pillton>
e.g. I don't know who recommended "The Art of Multiprocessing Programming" but thank you. I really enjoyed it.
<pillton>
The Art of Multiprocessor Programming.
<beach>
Speaking of books, can I assume you know that phoe's book on the condition system is now (or soon?) available on Apress?
<pillton>
I was surprised to read that you didn't like AMOP.
<pillton>
No! I did not.
<beach>
Me (about AMOP)? Did I say that?
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<pillton>
"It is not easy to understand even for Lispers. I had two attempts that I abandoned."
<pillton>
Perhaps I got the context wrong.
<beach>
That's doesn't mean I don't like it. It just means that I was not smart enough.
<beach>
It discusses hard stuff. Knowing Common Lisp is not enough to understand it.
<pillton>
Yes it does, but I find the front section quite good.
<beach>
Yes, once I was smart enough to understand it, I appreciate it very much.
<beach>
There are some quirks of course, but that's to be expected.
<pillton>
The discussion about syntactic, glue and programmatic layers really resonated with me. A lot of what I write follows that design pattern.
<beach>
I see, yes.
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<borei>
good morning/afternoon
<no-defun-allowed>
Hello borei.
<borei>
quick question - if i do foreign-alloc within lisp function and i don't do foreign-free - im getting memory leak ?
<no-defun-allowed>
Correct.
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<borei>
eventually statement is a bit wide - lisp GC doesn't track any foreign allocations.
<beach>
borei: It couldn't.
<borei>
cool.
<beach>
borei: A typical Common Lisp garbage collector will move objects.
<beach>
borei: And that would break most foreign code.
<beach>
borei: It is much safer and easier to write your programs in Common Lisp.
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<borei>
yep, totally agree. im working on the rados client, which depends on librados - which is C-library, so there will be pretty big portion of code dealing with for low level memory operation.
<borei>
was looking to do pure lisp implementation for the client - but im not there yet. Too complex.
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<flip214>
Can I get swank to expand MACROLETs as well?
<flip214>
oh, it _gets_ encoded, just the MACROLET form itself is left in
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<adlai>
scalpl is not officially unmaintained, thus, it is reasonable to close the issue, having denied the request, if that is the distributor's intent.
<adlai>
the primary purpose for that removal request is, for lack of a better name, "defensive unlicensing"
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<adlai>
in case anyone is worried, the code is not covered by patents; and there is a significant, although low, probability that certain copies of it will soon be covered by aggressively copyleft licenses.
<adlai>
thus, I wish to save anyone who automatically mirrors the default dist a massive headache, involving lots of unsolicited paperwork.
<adlai>
... and if you ever include me in your software development process, please consider inviting your lawyer to my job interview.
<adlai>
|#
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<adlai>
https://freenode.irclog.whitequark.org/lisp/2020-10-15#28144452 << pillton, I once heard a theory claiming a paradoxical effect, wherein the surprise bestsellers that were failed by several editors, yet benefitted from -- grey-hat byte-stuffing, for lack of words -- still get incredible reviews because the critics just can't get past the tedia
<adlai>
; although that does not imply that the book is as terrible as you'd expect, from a glowing review by a paid professional critic.
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<Xach>
adlai: why is the license changing?
<phoe>
I see that scalpl is in the public license, according to its current ASD file
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<jackdaniel>
let's say taht my condition inherits from simpe-error and adds a new slot/initarg foo/:foo, is there a way to propagate value of foo to :format arguments? (without assuming that condition is not a standard class)
<jackdaniel>
:format-arguments
<jackdaniel>
s/taht/that/
<jackdaniel>
(of course not by the caller of make-condition/error in the place where the condition is defined)
<jackdaniel>
s/error in/error, but in/
<phoe>
propagate, as in...? you want to add that to the beginning/end of that list?
<jackdaniel>
as in (define-condition foobar ((foo :initarg :foo)) (:default-initargs :format-control "foo ~s not found" :format-arguments (list <whatever-was-passed-as-:foo>)))
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<jackdaniel>
normally I'd do that in the after method of initialize-instance
<phoe>
AFAIK you need a custom constructor for that, so, (defun make-foobar (foo) (make-condition 'foobar :foo foo :format-arguments (list foo) ...))
<phoe>
unless you want to write code for all implementations that are not SBCL
<jackdaniel>
sounds good ,)
<jackdaniel>
thanks
<phoe>
I mean, setting portability aside for a moment, you can use INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER on a condition object but only if you use MAKE-INSTANCE instead of MAKE-CONDITION
<phoe>
this works even on SBCL
<jackdaniel>
conforming code can't call make-instance for conditions
<phoe>
but I assume that you want to write portable code, at which point, yes
<jackdaniel>
s/portable/conforming/ ,)
<phoe>
yep
<phoe>
we could try to turn this behavior (MAKE-CONDITION that obeys the MOP initialization protocol) into an implementation extension and then complain at SBCL that CCL, ECL, Clasp, ABCL, CLISP, LW, and ACL already support it
<phoe>
but I've tried, and failed, at that task in the past
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<adlai>
Xach: a potential collaborator wants to use the AGPL; there is a remote possibility that chanl, which is a dependency, will be the subject of patent trolling lawsuits after I, and a potential collaborator, do an unhealthy amount of studying from various open-source implementations of similar ideas.
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<adlai>
there should be an "and" after the semicolon there; those are two separate instances of the risk of patent trolling going from zero to epsilon.
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* adlai
is tempted, around the two-thirds likelihood, to add some sorta "Please neither copyleft nor copyright your proposed contributions", although this is quite off-topic for here.
<adlai>
ultimately, what seems best to me right now is for scalpl itself to be outside of the default dist, although it should not require any software outside of the default dist.
<adlai>
as I've mentioned before, the current code is also replete with practices ranging from mediocre to worst.
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* adlai
should also take about a decade or few to get enough familiarity with the retail investor platforms so that scalpl can speak the protocol of at least one regular stock exchange
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<adlai>
so far, it has been mostly speaking to various 'greysuit' digital currency exchanges, during the happy years before they get love letters from government agencies; it is a fun game, and quite useful for a certain class of people, although still - quite a narrow niche.
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<adlai>
phoe: I explicitly wrote "public domain", and never included any copyright notice in the scalpl files, because I do not consider that tool an innovation, by this point in human history.
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<adlai>
if the specific names of classes that I divined out of smoke, coffee grounds, and conversations with my dog, along with the various inconsistencies of imprecise arithmetic found in that repository, happen to be considered an invention... that's someone else's problem :)
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<dbotton_>
phoe - will your book come out with a kindle edition when it is released in Nov? (I want to get a copy but want digital)
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<phoe>
dbotton_: I have no idea
<phoe>
there is an electronic version but I have no idea if it's kindle-compatible
<phoe>
seems like it will be there
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<phoe>
annnnnnnnd they've moved it to November, oh bother
<dbotton_>
I don't care which fromat just that can read on a screen :)
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<dbotton_>
otherwise have to cut and scan and I don't like doing that and wasting a book
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<dbotton_>
I look forward to reading
<dbotton_>
it
<edgar-rft>
dbotton_: you could glue the paper onto a screen if that helps
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<dbotton_>
the issue is carrying it around and magnification
<dbotton_>
glue would get in way of the other books I am reading too
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<adlai>
of course, I forgot that other hard problem: "... and the baud rate of the patent-pending low-power high-contrast pixel-based paper-mimicking anisotropic crystal array"
<adlai>
phoe: the publisher is handling sales of the initial printings?
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* adlai
is deep within "usual approach useless here" territory; "fail early, often" + condition system = good thing; lighter diff = good, along different ethics; maintainer ... has not abandoned lisp, although, is busy.
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<adlai>
is github user Zulu-Inuoe currently present?
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* adlai
has edited the unwitting competitor, "pull/8", to remove the link to the author of the issue reporting the problem, to minimize the number of links.
<adlai>
the author is still named in the commit message itself, and is likely to receive an automated notification if and when either one of the pull requests is accepted.
<adlai>
I intentionally do not include the author's name in these messages, to avoid a distracting notification; the author can hunt down this conversation in the maze of automated notifications, if the issue is worth voting upon.
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<adlai>
furthermore, if my pull request is preferred over Zulu-Inuoe's primarily due to the commit message, instead of the code itself, I will be significantly less likely to perform such actions again.
<adlai>
this is called, as the old shootouts encouraged, "Code as you would professionally."
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<phoe>
dbotton_: oh! ebooks will be there
<phoe>
I just wonder if it's pdf-only or also epub/mobi/kindle... should be all of them
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<dbotton__>
phoe great, just no presale option on amazon, so hopefully will be there mid-nov when book comes out
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<dbotton__>
What is the easiest gui library to use to do some playing with on windows? starting to work on so less trivial things to bring me to speed
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<phoe>
dbotton__: there's presale on apress
<phoe>
also, I'll recommend qtools
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<dbotton__>
thinks i am in england...
<phoe>
thinks I am in Spain
<phoe>
(I'm in Poland)
<dbotton__>
won't let me do presale but says will be there min nov
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<rpg>
@phoe: for some reason when I googled your book, the site also thought I was in Spain. I suspect it has something to do with the redirection from Google.
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<phoe>
rpg: possibly, hm
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<narodnik>
hello I'm learning lisp new
<narodnik>
enjoying it so far
<narodnik>
how can I turn an s-expr into a list with racket?
<narodnik>
I tried s-exp-to-string but it errors
<narodnik>
s-exp-to-list sorry
<Xach>
narodnik: sorry, but this channel is only for common lisp
<narodnik>
i also tried (list '(1 2 3))
<narodnik>
ahh ok
<Xach>
I don't know what's available for racket-specific help, but I think there is a #scheme channel
<narodnik>
is there a reason I should study common lisp instead?
<narodnik>
thanks
<Xach>
I prefer Common Lisp to Scheme, but I didn't try Scheme very much before switching.
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<_death>
so it appears cffi now takes responsibility for defining a size_t-compatible type :size.. nice
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<semz>
that's really good
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<luis>
_death: another long overdue thing someone should add to cffi is an API to zero memory
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<_death>
yeah, memset and memmove (or fill/replace if you like ;) equivalents would be nice
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<_death>
but these can easily be defined by a user.. while size_t needs a grovel (although it looks like the current implementation makes "pretty safe bets")
<jmercouris>
wouldn't it be nice if C didn't exist, no more of this FFI nonsense
<jmercouris>
\/rant
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<phoe>
jmercouris: another language would emerge in its place
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<phoe>
or rather, not the language - a FFI specification
<jmercouris>
the ABI is OK
<jmercouris>
what I don't like is the prevalent usage of it, and all the problems it leads to
<phoe>
I know, right
<jmercouris>
C is fine when you MUST be on the bleeding edge of performance and if you are a genius like Dennis Ritchie
<jmercouris>
for the rest of us who can't program in SED, it leads to buggy terrible code
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<_death>
Xach: the commit is from today (although it was authored a while ago).. I will modify my public libraries accordingly in a few months from now ;)
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<Xach>
_death: do you think the changes are likely to break any current cffi-using code?
<Xach>
if someone is, say, :use-ing cffi, maybe a new name conflict? (don't know cffi well enough to know if this is likely)
<_death>
Xach: no, assuming people don't give keywords names to their defctypes
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<Xach>
cool
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