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<mseddon>
aaaaaa: sounds a little bit like entrapment, so good luck finding suckers here.
<mseddon>
the answer is no, there is no free distribution.
<mseddon>
sorry. you will have to pay for it.
<mseddon>
apress would not be handing out freebies.
<mseddon>
you may be able to find pre-release material in the public domain, but there are no guarantees that they relate to the published artefact, which I assume you are wanting to read.
<mseddon>
sorry. them's the breaks.
<mseddon>
if you contact the author, perhaps they will release a pre-release manuscript?
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<mseddon>
it's really between you and them, and their publisher.
<mseddon>
nobody else can help in that kind of situation.
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<aaaaaa>
what do you mean by 'entrapment'?
<aaaaaa>
I didn't ask for pirated version, just wondered...
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<mseddon>
that was me being a bit rude, sorry.
<mseddon>
unwarrented. I have had a long week, I didn't mean to offend.
<mseddon>
but sadly since it appears to be a forthcoming publication, I'd suggest you contact the author directly, since they are the final arbiter of the work.
<mseddon>
nobody else owns that, so nobody else has power to help you.
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<mseddon>
it is ultimately, however, up to them what they do with their copyright.
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<mseddon>
people are sometimes amenable though, and will give you access to pre-release material.
<mseddon>
just. be nice. respect boundaries.
<mseddon>
don't be a dick, and the rest of the ten commandments. or whatnot.
<mseddon>
anyway. generally I don't see why one would not cough up the modest sum to acknowledge the time they spent working on it, rather than haggling out of the blue. Don't you?
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<moon-child>
evening, beach
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<phoe>
aaaaaa: it has been taken down ever since the author has signed a contract with apress
<beach>
Interesting.
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<beach>
phoe: What did Apress have to say about your making the text of your book publicly available for proofreading?
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<phoe>
beach: actually, I did the proofreading in private
<beach>
Oh! I see.
<phoe>
as in, made a public call for proofreading, but invited everyone to work on a *private* Git repository
<beach>
I see, I see. Clever!
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<phoe>
I specifically asked them about this, and they did not mind doing it that way as long as I did not make the text freely and publicly accessible on the 'net
<beach>
Good to know.
<beach>
I am asking because I am seriously considering changing my book "Concrete and Abstract Data Types" use Common Lisp directly, rather than translating it into a specific algorithmic language. I would then also invite some people to help me with the proofreading.
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<beach>
Lately, I have changed my opinion about the possibility of mentioning Lisp in public, without everyone automatically stop listening immediately. Functional programming seems to be on the rise as a mainstream paradigm, Clojure is fairly popular, and "Uncle Bob" is pushing Clojure as "The Last Programming Language".
<beach>
With Apress having published several books using Common Lisp, it seems the they also don't mind mentioning Common Lisp. I assume they know something about potential clients.
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<phoe>
yep, I can understand that
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<he-man>
hello everyone. Looking for some help on Common Lisp. Is this the right place? Thank you very much.
<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
... and welcome to #lisp.
<he-man>
Hello @beach. Couple of questions actually. I am developing a small program, for the sake of practicing
<he-man>
I am totally unfamiliar with the idiomatic way to load packages in general
<beach>
Go ahead! By the way, this is IRC and the `@' convention is not used.
<he-man>
In my file I define a package with defpackage
<he-man>
and I (:use :common-lisp :str)
<beach>
OK.
<he-man>
but the package is not found unless I load quicklisp and I download it
<he-man>
seems weird to me, because what I though is package download should be a one-time operation (not something I should add in my .lisp file)
<beach>
Well, to start with, you are probably confusing packages (a Common Lisp term for namespaces) and systems (what other languages call "packages").
<he-man>
what am I doing wrong?
<beach>
With Quicklisp, you download systems, not packages.
<he-man>
so. for a workflow where I envision as 1. add my functions
<beach>
The :USE clause of a DEFPACKAGE just says that your code can use the symbols in the STR package without a package prefix. It has nothing to do with systems.
<he-man>
2. export them
<aeth>
in CL, "packages" are just namespaces for symbols
<he-man>
yes, I know that. So I need to quickload str each time?
<aeth>
or write a .asd file in a location that Quicklisp can find
<he-man>
actually my problem is more of recognizing a structure that makes sense.
<beach>
he-man: Normally, you would create yourself an ASDF system definition file.
<he-man>
so the recommendation (as in best practice)
<he-man>
is to add a .asd file
<he-man>
which is kind of a Makefile, right?
<beach>
That file would contain a :depends-on with the names of the systems it depends on.
<beach>
Sort of, yes.
<he-man>
ok. I see
<beach>
Then, if you do (asdf:load-system <your-system-name>) then the dependencies will be automatically loaded first.
<he-man>
ok. Thank you very much, gonna give it a try.
<beach>
Good luck.
<pve>
beach: Perhaps the CL code could be added as some kind of supplementary material.
<beach>
pve: I don't understand what you are saying.
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<beach>
pve: Oh, for the book?
<pve>
beach: yes, sorry
<beach>
pve: No, the problem is that my favorite coauthor was supposed to make sure the code works by creating automatic tests, but she has no time to be my favorite coauthor anymore, and I don't have time to create such a thing. That's why I am considering simplifying the entire thing by just using normal Common Lisp code that can be tested as usual.
<beach>
Adding Common Lisp code would double the amount of work for the code.
<pve>
Ok, I see, not practical then.
<MichaelRaskin>
And I guess you do not want to trust a previously unfamiliar project providing executable pseudocode (with Common Lisp translation and TeX rendering)
<beach>
What "previously unfamiliar project" are you referring to?
<beach>
I have Common Lisp code, but it is a bit doctored to simplify translation to TeX.
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<beach>
And I have the TeX translation.
<beach>
But the organization of the Common Lisp code does not lend itself to automatic testing the way it is currently structured.
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<beach>
I didn't mind, because it was something that my favorite coauthor would excel in doing, and she is highly organized. But I can't face doing that myself.
<MichaelRaskin>
Hm, maybe Breanndán Ó Nualláin never published Pseudograph…
<MichaelRaskin>
(ELS2015, Executable Pseudocode for Graph Algorithms)
<beach>
I would not be able to use an existing algorithmic language if that is what you mean.
<beach>
I need generic functions, methods, packages, etc. (with different terminology of course).
<phoe>
beach: do you need help structuring your code in a way that makes it testable?
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<beach>
phoe: That is precisely the problem, yes.
<he-man>
something I do not quite understand yet is that, when I open a session in Emacs (I already created an asd file).
<phoe>
beach: I could take a look at that someday
<he-man>
I would expect my file program.lisp to be compiled because :components ((:file "myfile.lisp"))
<beach>
he-man: You start Emacs when you boot your computer.
<he-man>
is there
<phoe>
beach: come on, not always
<beach>
phoe: Oh, that would be great!
<phoe>
he-man: (asdf:load-system :my-system) should compile-and-load this tile then
<phoe>
what happens instead?
<he-man>
mmh... I was missing that... That goes in myfile.lisp?
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<phoe>
no, that goes in the REPL
<beach>
he-man: Oh, good, others to the rescue. Then I can take my lunch break.
<phoe>
when you start a Lisp image, it is completely clean and does not have any software loaded
<phoe>
you need to explicitly load it, and ASDF is the tool for that
<he-man>
@beach there is no a need to help if you are not willing to, no problem. I came here because I was told it is the place to do it. But skip at your will.
<phoe>
Quicklisp is a wrapper over ASDF that handles automatically downloading systems from the Internet
<phoe>
and ASDF is the thing that does the loading itselfg
<phoe>
s/itselfg/itself/
<phoe>
so you can write your code in myfile.lisp and create my-system.asd that contains (defsystem #:my-system ... :components ((:file "myfile"))) and then (asdf:load-system :my-system)
<phoe>
oh! I see the issue now
<phoe>
in ASDF, you need "myfile" instead of "myfile.lisp"
<phoe>
ASDF adds the extension automatically for Lisp files
<he-man>
yes, I think I am almost done, let me give it a try. The problem is that I did not know where to put what and how to do it
<he-man>
I think I understand already: so you fire up emacs
<he-man>
and a REPL
<he-man>
your asd file contains your files to compile + depends on, etc.
<he-man>
you load the system
<he-man>
and that way you are already where you left off.
<he-man>
Correct?
<phoe>
"where you left off" is kinda imprecise
<he-man>
well. Imagine I turn off the computer
<phoe>
I'd say, that way you have the system loaded, which usually means that all of its files are compiled and loaded into the image
<he-man>
so I open emacs
<he-man>
my REPL is local
<phoe>
oh, yes, I understand now
<he-man>
so I fire a new one
<he-man>
and do the system load starting from the asd file and it will take care of the rest
<phoe>
yes
<he-man>
the last question I would have is, having this
<he-man>
(defpackage #:directory-indexer
<he-man>
(in-package :directory-indexer)
<he-man>
:name "directory-indexer"
<he-man>
(defsystem directory-indexer
<he-man>
(:use :common-lisp :asdf))
<he-man>
:version "0.0.0"
<he-man>
:maintainer "German Diago"
<he-man>
:author "German Diago"
<he-man>
:components ((:file "program"))
<he-man>
:licence "MIT license"
<he-man>
:description "Index your text files in directories and find contents"
<phoe>
package.lisp contains the package definition, phoe-toolbox.lisp contains the implementation
<he-man>
I need to remove the package stuff
<he-man>
yes, I can make sense of the structure already, thanks.
<phoe>
some systems written by some people, usually very simple ones, fold even those two into one file - see phoe-toolbox/bag below
<he-man>
I am trying common lisp and probably pharo later as "the most interactive programming languages ever".
<he-man>
I am interested in seeing how it works in a server
<phoe>
they are! (given that you use the right tooling for the job)
<he-man>
without restarting
<phoe>
it usually works exactly the same way on a server - you have a swank server running on the Lisp image, and you connect to it through the 'net
<he-man>
and see how it affects deployment. I understand that in many cases you redefine things and keep going without a redeployement, which is fantastic!
<phoe>
usually with either emacs's tramp or an sshfs mount for accessing remote files
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<he-man>
yes, that is the reason why I am trying this in the first place, to see this kind of interactivity
<phoe>
and the interaction works exactly the same way as it would locally
<phoe>
since you use exactly the same protocols as you use for local development
<beach>
he-man: No, I am usually eager to help, but I have been up working for 7 hours straight and I need a break.
<he-man>
I have been mostly working in C#/C++/Python. Python is nice, but I want to go fully dynamic (in the sense of image, objects, etc.)
<phoe>
I see; objects, in what way do you mean?
<he-man>
@beach thanks for your help! It was really appreciated. I just mentioned so that you do not feel in the obligation of doing it :)
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<he-man>
well, in the case of Lisp, objects (clos) and functions
<he-man>
the nice thing as far as my understanding goes
<he-man>
is that the environment is fully dynamic
<he-man>
to the point that is alive
<he-man>
so in many cases, such as trivial bug fixes, it is viable to just connect and fix
<he-man>
without redeploying. Of course this is not a replacement for testing, etc.
<he-man>
but you get my point I guess :)
<phoe>
well, yes, developing Lisp application can turn into vivisection sometimes, in the positive meaning of the word
<phoe>
since you can end up poking and tugging on things in an alive application
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<he-man>
I had to look for that word in spanish, and after doing it in spanish, had to go to the dictionary, hahaha!
<phoe>
but this also means that you can end up harming or killing it if you tug on the wrong thing; with great power comes great responsibility, yadda yadda
<he-man>
yes, something like that
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<he-man>
yes, I guess so as well
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<phoe>
and Lisp, being the language that empowers the programmer, also gives you all the kinds of footguns to choose from; so be careful when doing this sort of stuff
<phoe>
and, other than that, hack away~
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<he-man>
is it a bad practice to add directories to asdf:*central-registry*?
<phoe>
not really
<phoe>
many people do that in their RC files
<phoe>
for instance so they can store their Lisp stuff e.g. in ~/Projects/Lisp/ and have ASDF handle that
<he-man>
I usually have my projects in ~/git/project-name
<he-man>
so I would add the dir directly, right?
<phoe>
usually one would add ~/git/
<phoe>
and then ~/git/project-name/project-name.asd would be found
<he-man>
then I am not sure how to load, I see a :symbol in asdf:load-system calls I found around
<he-man>
so I do:
<he-man>
(asdf:load-system :my-project) and provided that I have
<he-man>
~/git in the registry
<he-man>
it will find my-project/my-project.asd
<phoe>
yes
<phoe>
:my-project gets coerced into "my-project" which is used to load the system from the file my-project.asd
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<he-man>
I suspect I am doing something wrong. I put this in my .sbclrc file. Maybe at that time asdf is not loaded?
<he-man>
this:
<phoe>
;; remember about the pastebin!
<he-man>
just one line is ok here? not pasting a ton of code.
<jackdaniel>
you may also find some early rationale on my blog behind some decisions
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<Lycurgus>
actually it's renunciation of citizenship by higher net worth individuals that's up. So much so that they're now charging a stiff fee for it.
<beach>
?
<Lycurgus>
sorry wrong channel
<beach>
Ah!
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<shaman_king>
lisp utter shite
<beach>
I am sure you have better things to do than that.
<contrapunctus>
shaman_king: do you feel frustrated because you need help?
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* beach
makes use of /ignore.
<saganman>
I think they are just a troll
<beach>
Of course.
<shaman_king>
i think its more to do with the terrible syntax
<beach>
From a real person one could have expected a grammatically correct sentence.
<shaman_king>
its terrible
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<saganman>
shaman_king: Terrible or not, no one is forcing you to use lisp. If you don't like it, don't use it. Don't force your opinions on others.
<shaman_king>
but i want to
<shaman_king>
fix the syntax
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<MichaelRaskin>
You are not the first and there are multiple projects providing different syntax
<MichaelRaskin>
Somehow they all get abandoned.
<shaman_king>
well
<shaman_king>
let me takeover the project, i will make changes
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<v28flflfl>
i made a function that loads functions from a file and evals them at runtime, and it works? how the hell doe sthat work? doesn't sbcl have to compile them, or is the sbcl runtime so to speak always there?
<sm2n>
you can access the compiler at runtime
<shaman_king>
go away, this channel is moving to quakenet
<v28flflfl>
fuck me
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<sm2n>
in fact, it goes even further than that
<shaman_king>
another happy lisp customer
<sm2n>
sbcl exposes an api you can use at runtime, being written in cl itself
<shaman_king>
stfu
<beach>
sm2n: I think the person left.
<sm2n>
oh
<shaman_king>
good on him
<shaman_king>
this channel is ABANDONWARE now
<sm2n>
beach, I think you are the right person to ask. I want to learn more about the MOP, what is a good way of doing so?
<shaman_king>
nope
<beach>
The book is a good start.
<shaman_king>
no
<shaman_king>
its not
<beach>
Actually, maybe not so good.
<shaman_king>
yea
<shaman_king>
its not
<beach>
But I don't think there is anything better.
<shaman_king>
use googal
<sm2n>
I see
<shaman_king>
no you dont
<sm2n>
I guess I just have to play with the code after all
<shaman_king>
play with your willie
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<beach>
sm2n: You just want to learn it as a user, yes?
<sm2n>
not necessarily, but that is a good start
<sm2n>
I am interested in implementation as well however
<beach>
sm2n: I guess you can look at the specification on the metamodular website.
<beach>
Then the book is good.
<sm2n>
isn't that just the last 2 chapters from the book?
<beach>
Chapters 5 and 6 as I recall.
<sm2n>
alright, thanks
<beach>
But the site is actually better organized than that those chapters.
<beach>
And there are cross references in the form of links.
<sm2n>
if I were to provide you with a stylesheet, would you consider applying it?
<beach>
To make it look different?
<sm2n>
to be quite frank I don't find it very readable currently
<sm2n>
yes
<beach>
What is wrong with it?
<sm2n>
the main issue is the line length
<sm2n>
rule of thumb in typography is you want about ~60 chars a line or so
<sm2n>
for optimal reading
<beach>
I don't set the line length. It adapts to the width of the browser window.
<sm2n>
that is the issue
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<beach>
Hmm.
<MichaelRaskin>
Actually, for many readers it is better this way
<beach>
sm2n: That's a nice offer, but I don't think I am willing to mess with web stuff like that.
<MichaelRaskin>
Because if width is not specified, you can resize the window to desired width, but if it is hardcoded…
<sm2n>
alright then
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<sm2n>
well, I ended up writing a userstyle (basically a stylesheet loaded client-side) for myself anyway
<sm2n>
8 lines of css, and it looks decent imo
<sm2n>
works on clhs as well funnily enough
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<beach>
Great!
<beach>
That's a much better solution I think.
<sm2n>
I'll upload it somewhere later if anyone else wants it
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<contrapunctus>
beach, sm2n: I nick CSS for my personal Org/Markdown HTML exports from here, it works well most of the time. http://bettermotherfuckingwebsite.com/
<sm2n>
yeah that was the inspiration
<contrapunctus>
No need for reader mode on mobile that way.
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<beach>
I just can't deal with web stuff. Someone (I forget who it was) already made what he claims to be a much better version of my MOP site, and told me that I should encourage everyone to use his version instead. But I told him that it is fine if he convinces everyone. I consider my work done.
<beach>
The someone is known in various forums, and not necessarily for his politeness. I just can't remember his name now.
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<beach>
Ah, Jean-Philippe Paradis!
<beach>
He also sent a link to his version to stassats so that minion would use his instead, but that must not have happened.
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<sm2n>
I'm reading the uiop:launch-program documentation, it has a function wait-process, which blocks on the async spawned process, and it seems to be indicating that it is necessary to run
<sm2n>
"Any asynchronously spawned process requires this function to be run before it is garbage-collected in order to free up resources that might otherwise be irrevocably lost."
<sm2n>
what's actually getting collected here?
<sm2n>
I can't block my event loop here, so do I have to move into another thread?
<moon-child>
sm2n: there is also uiop:process-alive-p you can use to check if the process is still running
<sm2n>
so the idiom would be (if (not (process-alive-p ...)) (wait-process ..)) ?
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<aeth>
sm2n: the opposite
<sm2n>
what do you mean?
<aeth>
sm2n: (when (process-alive-p process) #| do other stuff here, like send a quit command |# (wait-process process) #| read all of the leftover output here |#)
<aeth>
you do it when the process is alive at the end of your program.
<aeth>
the code I sent might hang if the process hangs, though.
<aeth>
Maybe there's a way to force close after x seconds
<aeth>
By send a quit command I mean, e.g. if the process is "dc" then you'd send "q"
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<sm2n>
oh
<sm2n>
well, the point here is that I know the program in question will terminate
<sm2n>
and when it does I want to spawn another
<sm2n>
but I don't want any stuff hanging around, obviously
<sm2n>
this is all in an event loop, so I don't want to block on it
<sm2n>
I'm questioning whether I have to call uiop:wait-process at all, the documentation seems to point to yes, but I can't see why
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<sm2n>
also, it sucks that the process-info interface isn't monadic
<aeth>
sm2n: since it's just a portability library, it's probably the case in some but not all implementations
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<aeth>
sm2n: If you don't want to block the main thread you could always just put the process into a "cleanup" queue in another thread that calls WAIT-PROCESS and then moves onto the next one.
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<mfiano->
Friends don't let friends finalize
<sm2n>
aeth, I ended up going with what I originally posted, with calling wait-process only after the process exits