<Xach>
I am about to get a retired "enterprise" server that's about 5 years old, but it's got gobs of ram and disk and some fast "enterprise" CPUs. I'm going to see if Quicklisp builds improve at all with it.
<Xach>
Someone in my tiny town improbably has it for sale for cheap enough to give it a try.
<Bike>
nice.
<Oladon>
Xach: Nice! :)
<Xach>
hmm, maybe it's older than that. ad says "2 x 2.60Ghz E5-2670".
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<ldb>
good morning
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<aeth>
I've been reorganizing and cleaning up bits and pieces, and I'll probably write tests before deciding what to spin off. So I guess "this week" was too optimistic.
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<beach>
phoe: I read the exchange. It is typical for people to object, and then, even though they are finally impressed by what you tell them, they keep quiet. The overall impression, then, is that almost everybody is unconvinced, which is often depressing. But that typically isn't the case, and from reading between the lines, I think that you converted a few.
<beach>
phoe: So, congratulations again!
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<phoe>
beach: I'm very satisfied with that exchange and, based on that text, don't think that almost everyone is unconvinced. If anything, the condition system is simply unknown to many of them and they can't imagine use cases for tools that are foreign to them.
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<phoe>
My book has sparked some discussion, though, and that's the important part. And I got a lot of book fixes from these comments even though the book hasn't been released yet. :D
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<beach>
phoe: Excellent!
<sveit>
when using the series library, sometimes functions cannot be optimized. that's fine, but the macro's warnings cause SBCL to decide the whole file compile failed, when in reality all that happened was that series was unable to optimize itself away, but the function still produces correct answers. is there a way to get around this?
<beach>
sveit: It may be ASDF that converts a warning to a compilation failure.
<beach>
sveit: There is an ASDF setting to fix that, but I forget the details.
<sveit>
beach: i don't think it's ASDF, since this error happens when I just directly compile the file
<beach>
Hmm, OK.
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<sveit>
(C-c C-k in Emacs)
<phoe>
sveit: it's slime
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<phoe>
it will say "compilation failed" where in reality it didn't fail
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<phoe>
mfiano encountered this just two or three days ago I think
<sveit>
phoe: i think it really does, since none of the other functions from that package exist.
<phoe>
oh, hm
<sveit>
it /is/ true that if you individually compile the functions, the warning is fake
<sveit>
or rather the warning is really, but the compile doesn't actually faile
<phoe>
do you hit Y or N after compiling the file?
<phoe>
when it asks if you want to load the FASL file
<sveit>
it doesn't even ask
<phoe>
weird!
<sveit>
not sure if it matters, but i am using sly
<phoe>
could you provide a test case?
<phoe>
I don't know about sly but I can check it on slime
<sveit>
(defun silly-length (s) (series:collect-length s))
<sveit>
(defun other-function (x) (+ 7 x))
<sveit>
just any package containing those two functions
<phoe>
the *very* bottom is where slime asks if I nonetheless want to load the FASL file
<phoe>
I hit Y, and the functions are loaded
<sveit>
phoe: i see, it's not appearing for me, but maybe that is sly or Windows. not a huge deal since in this case i can fix it by suppressing the warnings.
<phoe>
which is the scenario that I described
<phoe>
I'd check if sly behaves the same way
<sveit>
thanks for the quick checks! a related question for people familiar with series: the most common error i get is "Non-series to series data flow from: series-var" where series-var is treated as a series in the entire expression. is there some declaration/way to tell the compiler that some series-var is a series?
<sveit>
(declare (type series:series series-var)) doesn't work
<LdBeth>
seems sly converts warnings to failures
<LdBeth>
although I use sly
<LdBeth>
i get exact same message pops up as phoe's
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<phoe>
compile-time warnings, yes
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<LdBeth_>
series cannot rely on type declarations, since it is not enforced by CL
<sveit>
LdBeth_: thanks, so is there a way to convince series that a variable will be a series?
<LdBeth_>
the only way is having the operation on the series determined at compile time
<LdBeth_>
i.e you cannot expect to pass a series operation as an argument on run time
<sveit>
LdBeth_: but what if i am ok with "failure"? i.e. i am ok with an error if the argument to "(defun silly-length (s) (series:collect-length s))" is not a series, but i would like to at least get rid of the warnings by promising that s must be a series
<sveit>
in this case the operation on the series is indeed determined at compile time, right
<sveit>
?
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<LdBeth>
sveit: i see, it because the series implementation requires symbols from the :series package to do data flow analysis
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<LdBeth>
sveit: actually, besides import the :series package, (declare (optimizable-series-function 1)) is requred to be put into `silly-length' to have it successfully accpeted by optimizer
<LdBeth>
and it's use is explained in CLtL2
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<vegai>
debugging a python module whose restart takes about a minute
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<vegai>
great fun
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<vegai>
good'ol xkcd 303
<vegai>
in a dynamic language, heh
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<flip214>
I've got an sbcl image that starts up a hunchentoot server (including -quux) but hangs - no HTTP content served, Ctrl-C or kill doesn't work, I have to do kill -9.
<flip214>
when I (TRACE ..) a few functions, it works normally.
<flip214>
any ideas how to debug that? No swank server possible.
<flip214>
other images (different HTTP requests served, different business logic) with the same infrastructure works normally.
<flip214>
rebuilding this image doesn't help.
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<phoe>
Ctrl+C doesn't spawn some sort of SBCL debugger?
<phoe>
this would mean that it's in sb-sys:without-interrupts
<phoe>
and that would need attaching an external debugger to figure out what's going on.
<phoe>
oh wait, it works normally when you trace, but hangs if you don't trace them?
<flip214>
thanks, solved
<phoe>
huh! how? what was the issue?
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<flip214>
SIGUSR2 was bound by a thread for toggling debug logs on/off, but that's used by sbcl internally
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<phoe>
ha! I see
<flip214>
(bad choice, IMO - SIGUSR1 and USR2 are obvious choices for such application things)
<flip214>
why it did work when I TRACEd a few functions I can't say
<phoe>
must be sb-int::%*magic*
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<scymtym>
Xach: do you know whether there is an implementation of CFF/PostScript Type 1 fonts for CL?
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<beach>
So it's on Wednesday?
<phoe>
This time, yes - Wednesday
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<beach>
OK.
<beach>
No problem for me.
<phoe>
whew
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<phoe>
sorry about that - I have been way too distracted with book stuff + dayjob stuff
<beach>
I fully understand.
<beach>
Does that mean I have a day or two more to finish the presentation and record it?
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<beach>
Not that I absolutely need that, but it wouldn't hurt.
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<beach>
I guess I'll still try to finish it tomorrow, but maybe in the afternoon instead of in the morning.
<phoe>
beach: yes, sure! as long as I get it on Tuesday or something
<beach>
Excellent, thanks!
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<theosvoitha>
Hello When i try to first run Portacle in Windows 7, i encounter following error: https://bpa.st/2DPQ
<phoe>
theosvoitha: try typing BACKTRACE in there and hitting Enter
<phoe>
that should provide us with more information
<jasom>
that looks bad
<theosvoitha>
There isn't any space to type my command. this is being shown there: "Polling "C:/users/lenovo/appdata/temp/slimne.6408 ... 1132 (Abort with 'M-x slime-abort-connection)
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<phoe>
there should be - you should be able to type in the inferior lisp buffer
<phoe>
click on that buffer and type stuff in
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<jasom>
phoe: there's multiple warnings inside swank early on, that can't be normal, right?
<phoe>
jasom: they seem OK enough for me, nothing too suspicious.
<theosvoitha>
in 'inferior-lisp' buffer, this is being going on continuously
<theosvoitha>
Polling "C:/users/lenovo/appdata/temp/slimne.6408 ... 1132 (Abort with 'M-x slime-abort-connection)
<theosvoitha>
and the counting keeps increasing every second and am not able to type there
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<theosvoitha>
I type 'b' alphabet of "backstrace". Instantly it says 'b' is undefined and replaces that line again with Polling "C:/users/lenovo/appdata/temp/slimne.6408 ... 1132 (Abort with 'M-x slime-abort-connection)
<jasom>
theosvoitha: do you have a firewall of some sort running?
<phoe>
huh
<theosvoitha>
jasom: yes. Kaspersky.
<phoe>
weird stuff
<jasom>
it might be preventing slime from opening a socket for communication?
<theosvoitha>
let me disable it and try.
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<Xach>
scymtym: i don't know of one
<Xach>
scymtym: i started working on a postscript interpreter, hoping to maybe support them, but it has fallen by the wayside
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<beach>
And such a thing would be fantastic for music fonts, because the (to my knowledge) only free font for music that conforms to the new standard is in that format.
<beach>
So that font is going to be a must for Clovetree.
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<Xach>
PostScript is so nice and regular and simple
<Xach>
Maybe some student could be tricked into doing it
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<jasom>
theosvoitha: any luck?
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<mfiano>
Hello!
<theosvoitha>
jasom: No. I disabled Firewall completely, unzipped Portacle again and attempted but same issue.
<mfiano>
Would anyone good at making sense out of noisy C++ help me port to Lisp a very simple container data structure? The lightning talk that presents it is very lacking in details, and the code is very painful for me to read. It was recommended to me to ask here after failing for two days. :)
<theosvoitha>
shall i try the developer channel
<jasom>
theosvoitha: sure, or you can file an issue on github.
<theosvoitha>
Am trying to read "Practical Common Lisp"
<theosvoitha>
please suggest CL Implementation to follow it for windows.
<theosvoitha>
Book seem to suggest 'Lisp in a box' but it seems pretty old software
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<aeth>
theosvoitha: The most popular equivalent these days is probably portacle: https://portacle.github.io/
<tychoish>
I think SBCL works on windows.
<tychoish>
but I don't actually windows
<gaqwas>
theosvoitha, I second Portacle
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<clothespin_>
i use sbcl on windows
<aeth>
tychoish: iirc, SBCL works on Windows but it gives a warning that some features might not work, but everything works... although that could have been removed years ago (which still would've been like 5+ years later than it should have been)
<aeth>
The download tends to be an older version (and it is, it's 2.0.0), but afaik you could use it to bootstrap the latest off of git. http://www.sbcl.org/platform-table.html
<theosvoitha>
aeth: thanks couldn't get Portacle working on windows
<tychoish>
portacle looks like it includes emacs+sbcl and all of the glue that you need. if you already have emacs, then getting the emacs bits are easy enough but seems a bit personal :)
<aeth>
An alternative is Roswell, which is kind of an alternative to the official installer for every implementation, but I don't think that it comes with Emacs. https://github.com/roswell/roswell
<theosvoitha>
clothespin_: thanks sbcl i will try.
<theosvoitha>
thanks aeth.
<aeth>
(Roswell is much harder to use than Portacle ime.)
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<theosvoitha>
aeth: i am using win 7. i guess i need VM instead.
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<jackdaniel>
Xach: congrats
<jackdaniel>
(for the new dist release)
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<Xach>
thanks
<nirved>
sbcl-2.0.0 with emacs-25.1.1 on windows 8.1 works for me; also working are clisp-2.49 and ccl-1.11.5 (64bit); all of them installed at paths without spaces - C:/sbcl C:/clisp C:/ccl C:/emacs
<Xach>
i have also taken delivery of a very heavy old rack mount server which i hope to use to build quicklisp more quickly
<aeth>
If you're new to Lisp, you probably don't want to use clisp unless you compile from source because it hasn't had a release in about a decade even though it's still under development.
<aeth>
Oh, we just missed the 10 year birthday of the current stable version of CLISP... It was released 2010-07-07. https://clisp.sourceforge.io/
<theosvoitha>
As Windows 7 is not fit for Portacle or others am trying Virtual Machine. Please suggest if "Gentoo" Linux has proper Common Lisps softwares ported.
<tychoish>
Xach: what's the build time now?
<aeth>
SBCL should be in the repositories of every major distro. The others will be hit-or-miss, but Fedora (which I use) also has ECL and CLISP. Iirc, though, Gentoo is a compile-everything (instead of shipping binary executables) distro, so using Gentoo to avoid compiling a Lisp implementation sounds self-defeating.
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<nirved>
theosvoitha: dev-lisp/sbcl is at 2.0.5 (testing), dev-lisp/clozurecl is at 1.11.5 (stable)
<theosvoitha>
thanks aeth. any *BSD you suggest? Am practising OpenBSD to help in some open source word.
<aeth>
Lisp implementations are sort of incompatible with this approach because they usually require a Lisp implementation. e.g. SBCL needs to be compiled from SBCL or a handful of approved implementations. This is called 'bootstrapping' an implementation. So bootstrapping the SBCL compiler from scratch (instead of another version of SBCL) usually requires compiling the CLISP interpreter first.
<aeth>
I think this "ports" approach is used by Gentoo and all BSDs.
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<aeth>
(And a Mac OS X package manager)
<theosvoitha>
nirved: ok thanks
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<theosvoitha>
okay thanks aeth. Fedora i will try to run in my VM.
<nirved>
theosvoitha: gentoo used to require hours of compilation and configuration, might be faster on modern machines
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<theosvoitha>
nirved: but ask aeth suggest it is not fit for Lisp implementations
<aeth>
Well, it just will take much longer to compile.
<theosvoitha>
aeth: it actually does.
<aeth>
To compile SBCL on Fedora/etc., you download the SBCL from Fedora, which will be about 6-24 months out of date (ideally 6, since Fedora releases every 6 months)... but you probably don't need the absolute latest version.
<aeth>
Afaik (I would need to setup VirtualBox or something to test), Gentoo would require a full bootstrapping of SBCL, probably from CLISP.
<theosvoitha>
aeth: yes i don't need. as i said i just need to practice 'Practical Common Lisp" book examples
<nirved>
aeth: gentoo downloads a binary of a previous version, and uses it to compile the current one
<aeth>
nirved: ah, interesting, so they kind of have to sacrifice their philosophy there
<nirved>
aeth: well, it downloads the necessary compiler
<aeth>
nirved: thanks for the input, I've been reading their docs and I couldn't find any indication of that
<nirved>
aeth: it's in the ebuild, downloads the binary available from sf.net
<lottaquestions>
Hi all, if I wanted to trace a lambda, how would I do it? trace rejects raw lambdas as input with the error "xyz is not a function name, not tracing"
<nirved>
maybe wrap it in a lambda which prints something first
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<lottaquestions>
@nirved: Would you show what you mean with a simple example?
<Josh_2>
Hi
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<nirved>
something like this: (lambda (&rest args) (format t "~&entering~%") (apply (lambda ...) args) (format t "~&exiting~%"))
<lottaquestions>
Thanks. let me try that
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<nirved>
lottaquestions: oh, it should be (... (prog1 (apply (lambda ...) args) (format t "~&exiting~%")))
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<jasom>
theosvoitha: FWIW I tried portacle on Win 10 and Win 8 and they both worked, but like I said I don't have a win 7 install.
<DGASAU>
minion: memo for seok: modern "traditional" DBMSes create indices for all columns with sufficient constraints upfront, plus they typically gather statistics on queries and adapt query execution plans accordingly. This alone typically makes SQL-based applications (in long-run use case) perform significantly better than those with manual in-memory joins and manual performance tweaks.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell seok when he/she/it next speaks.
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<DGASAU>
minion: also, for the reference, there was a paper from Google that summarized all their story behind "no-SQL" movement, when after more than 5 years pushing for "no SQL for performance" they admitted that in reality this doesn't actually pay off.
<DGASAU>
minion: memo for seok: also, for the reference, there was a paper from Google that summarized all their story behind "no-SQL" movement, when after more than 5 years pushing for "no SQL for performance" they admitted that in reality this doesn't actually pay off.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell seok when he/she/it next speaks.
<DGASAU>
(Sorry, I don't have the reference anymore. I only remember being surprised of the fact itself when I read it about 2012-14.)
<jasom>
actually, I just rememberd a win7 pro box I have; latest portacle runs on it fine.
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<_death>
jasom: I just tried the latest portacle on a win7 vm.. (it works)
<jasom>
_death: and I tried it on actual hardware
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<_death>
jasom: the person with the issue did not yet follow on the instructions given
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<aeth>
Well, this is somewhat annoying. The testing library parachute partially respects *print-case* as downcase. The test name will be downcased, but the package name will remain the true, upcased name. i.e. FOO::test
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<aeth>
this is sort of the worst of the four possible ways *print-case* could be respected here (both, one of either, or neither) since the package name is the less important part of the name
<phoe>
aeth: oh
<phoe>
could you give me an example?
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<aeth>
with *print-case* :downcase it would be PARACHUTE::numbers
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<aeth>
I usually *print-case* :downcase before testing or macroexpanding because it gives more human-readable names at the expense of not giving a completely accurate picture since "foo" could be |foo| or FOO.
<phoe>
ooooh, yes, I see
<phoe>
let me figure out where in parachute this needs to get fixed
<aeth>
phoe: what's weird is a string name isn't downcased, either, e.g. "Test" shows up as FOO::Test
<aeth>
But strings probably shouldn't be downcased, unlike symbols, because case preservation is probably always the intended result.
<borodust>
theosvoitha: phoe already mentioned it, Atom+SLIMA worked for me too (I set it up fairly easily just test things out)
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<xristos>
scymtym: is that mcclim?
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<scymtym>
xristos: the debug visualization on the right side is. the left side is fontforge
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<sjl_>
What's the correct/idiomatic way to intercept the initargs to a metaclass to process them? Normally I'd do this kind of thing by defining a constructor function make-whatever, but since this is a metaclass I don't think I can make defclass call a constructor.
<sjl_>
I have a metaclass MC with a slot FOO (whose initarg is :FOO). I want users to be able to say (defclass x () () (:metaclass mc) (:foo symb)) and have the slot FOO of the class set to SYMB.
<sjl_>
If I don't do anything special, then the FOO slot gets set to a list (SOMETHING) instead of just SOMETHING, because defclass supports class options with multiple things in the list, e.g. (:foo a b c), so the actual initarg that gets passed to (make-instance 'mc ...) is :foo (SOMETHING).
<sjl_>
In my particular case, I don't want that. I want to ensure they either provide a single symbol or nothing. Overriding shared-initialize and hacking the initargs to call-next-method seems to work, but I'm wondering if there's a cleaner way.
<phoe>
Gnuxie[m] was just talking about this case on #lispcafe
<phoe>
and no-defun-allowed
<phoe>
and the above thing seems to work
<sjl_>
I'm... not sure how that relates to my question?
<phoe>
oh wait, you want to just intercept them, not modify them
<sjl_>
Oh, are you talking about the line further down?
<phoe>
yes
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<phoe>
the defmethod at L95 plays with :direct-superclasses by calling patch-object-into-superclasses
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<sjl_>
Ah, yes. That looks similar to what Bike linked, and is basically the same approach in my example, right?
<phoe>
I assumed this is the kind of interception you are talking about
* phoe
clicks Bike link
<sjl_>
Override the initialization method, patch the args to call-next-method
<phoe>
the only difference I see there is between a primary method and an around method, but that's effectively the same thing
<sjl_>
I forgot you could do both &rest and &key to avoid the boilerplate getf though, that's nice
<phoe>
yes, I use this extensively
<phoe>
in particular, `&rest args &key foo &allow-other-keys` is amazing
<phoe>
if your generic function accepts e.g. `&key foo bar baz quux fred` then the above effectively grabs `&key foo` and still allows you to `(apply #'call-next-method ... args)`
<sjl_>
But yeah, I was mostly just wondering about the overall approach. Sounds like overriding shared-initialize or initialize-instance and prepending the fixed version is a reasonable approach.
<sjl_>
Thanks
<phoe>
that's what I do myself
<phoe>
also forgive me the off-topic, but this gem just landed on one of my mailgroups
<phoe>
(well, it's not really off-topic, since it says Xerox Common Lisp!)
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<jmercouris>
well well
<jmercouris>
I didn’t even know Xerox had an implementation!
<jmercouris>
It doesn’t surprise me though
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<jackdaniel>
since they are going to opensource it, and interlisp is one of cl ancestors, I don't think it is much on the offtopic side, rather it is ontopic
<jackdaniel>
thanks for sharing
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<aeth>
I wonder if there's a way to use a condition at the end of parachute:test so I can exit the process on failure, for CI. asdf:test-system always returns T iirc, which makes its return value useless, but I don't want to directly call parachute:test if I can avoid it.
<jasom>
phoe: is CLtL1 common lisp on-topic? I think the Xerox CL is pre-ANSI.
<jackdaniel>
I'm sure it would be more offtopic had we been discussing merits of interlisp or how to make something work on cltl1;
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<phoe>
jasom: I honestly have no idea
<phoe>
aeth: parachute:test returns a meaningful value, you can inspect it for any failed test results
<phoe>
otherwise, you can do that in ASDF:TEST-SYSTEM - call parachute:test, inspect the returned value, signal an error if any failed results are there
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<phoe>
beach: scymtym: Eclector gets a honorable mention in my book for being programmable using restarts/handlers. Thank you for it!
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<phoe>
minion: memo for pfdietz: thank you for mentioning the foo:bar reader issue on HN. I've added a chapter to my book that refers to it.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell pfdietz when he/she/it next speaks.
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<phoe>
minion: memo for pfdietz: I will also allow myself to include parts of your comment in the book text and to include your name in the book's Hall of Fame.
<minion>
Remembered. I'll tell pfdietz when he/she/it next speaks.
<aeth>
phoe: yeah, but ASDF testops seem to ignore meaningful values, thus requiring some degree of spaghetti
<aeth>
I guess I'll just not use asdf:test-system for the moment
<phoe>
aeth: the "consensus" seems to be that the tests should signal an error in case of failure.
<phoe>
and everything else is a pass.
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<aeth>
phoe: but the annoying part is that none is provided
<aeth>
Hmm... Wow, parachute's compatability is useless because it nicknames itself to "fiveam" guaranteeing that any large project is going to be unable to use parachute-fiveam because one of its dependencies almost certainly is using the real fiveam.
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