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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<crazybigdan>
Good night
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<phoe>
heyyyy
<no-defun-allowed>
Hello phoe
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<beach>
Hello phoe. Would you like some more SICL-related presentations?
<easye>
Morning beach. I think more SICL publicity would be great. There is so much there!
<beach>
Yeah, I think so too. It shouldn't be hard to cook up a few more presentations.
<easye>
err, more exposition than publicity, but I guess the too are co-related.
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<easye>
s/too/two/
* easye
has more coffee.
<beach>
Heh. I think mine kicked in finally. I am feeling a bit smarter now than an hour ago.
<phoe>
beach: sure
<beach>
OK, I'll try to come up with something.
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<beach>
Was the presentation on first-class global environments understandable at all? Some questions suggested that it wasn't. :(
<phoe>
I personally think the second part was slightly too condensed
<beach>
The demo?
<phoe>
The part where arrows and boxes happened.
<easye>
I understood it, but then I had the advantage of having seen the 2015 version as well.
<beach>
Yeah. Hmm, OK.
<beach>
easye: Yeah, that helps.
<phoe>
There was a good focus on the "what" but I think it could use a few more slides about the "why"
<beach>
Let me give that some thought and see if I can squeeze it into another presentation.
<phoe>
Including perhaps individual slides for each of the building blocks of your model: what is a function object, what is a template, what is an instance of that template, what is an environment, and such.
<beach>
I see, yes.
<phoe>
And then, once you've properly defined them, you can connect these blocks together into a bigger picture.
<phoe>
That's my impression of what would help at least *me* understand the thing
<beach>
Thanks. I'll try to take it into account.
<easye>
phoe: there is a comment on the ABCL presentation on YouTube that the audio is too quiet. Would it make any sense to renormalize the levels up?
<phoe>
easye: hmmmm. Correct, I should have done that myself.
<beach>
It was fine for me.
<phoe>
I can renormalize and reupload the video.
<phoe>
Will do that in the evening
<beach>
Oh, the YouTube. Sorry.
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<easye>
phoe: thanks. I'm gonna correct the text with beach's catch an other typos, and push it to a cool URI that we can link as well.
<phoe>
easye: the issue is that this will destroy the old video link, but I can work around that.
<phoe>
I'll set the old video as unlisted and link a better version in the description.
<easye>
Have we "lost" the chat that accompanied the presentation in Twitch? I should really get us a bridgebot that can record the things that happen there.
<phoe>
easye: not really "lost", it's still there on Twitch for about two weeks from now. I have simply gone the easier route and am uploading the videos alone without the accompanying Twitch chat.
<phoe>
However, technical contributions to what I am doing are most welcome
<easye>
Yeah, I think I volunteered to do this from last time, but I never got around to it.
<phoe>
well then
<easye>
phoe: Thanks again for the effort and initiative around the series.
<phoe>
there's a semi-perpetual microELS right now that you can direct your volunteering towards if you ever find the time and will!
<phoe>
easye: no problem, it's a pleasure to organize
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<conjunctive>
Hi, any recommendations on how to go about reading a CRLF-terminated line from a binary stream?
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<easye>
conjunctive: yer gonna either have to roll your own state machine looking for that sequence, or use FLEXI-STREAMS to "cast" the binary stream to something you can use READ-LINE with. Warning: untested advice while I am still waking up ;)
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<phoe>
conjunctive: I assume that your binary data does *not* contain the sequence of bytes for CR LF
<phoe>
like, that isn't supposed to be interpreted as a linebreak
<conjunctive>
@phoe: I think so. The line itself is a UTF-8 encoded URL, terminated with CR LF.
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<phoe>
oh! so you only want to read a single line
<conjunctive>
Yup!
<conjunctive>
(at least for now)
<phoe>
I assume, you could use FLEXI-STREAMS to turn the binary stream into a character one with CRLF line endings, and then READ-LINE on it
<phoe>
and/or read bytes until you encounter #x0D #x0A and then convert the byte vector into a string
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<conjunctive>
Will give that a try. Thank you @phoe & @easye
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<loke>
Is there some standard (i.e. "good") implementation of immutable trees? I.e., one where I can insert elements which returns a new copy with as much sharing as possible?
<jackdaniel>
#'cons and creative use of sublis ;)
<jackdaniel>
s/sublis/#'sublis/
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<jackdaniel>
bonus point for being in the cl standard
<loke>
Yeah. :-) I know :-)
<loke>
I'd like something that is better at balancing the tree though.
<jackdaniel>
that falls into a creative use of sublis, doesn't it? :p
<loke>
Usually I use red-black trees for mutable trees, but if I want some immutability (heavy parallelism with rare updates)
<loke>
Oh yeah, problem is that I'm not very creative. :-(
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<phoe>
loke: hmmm
<phoe>
shka_: do you have anything related to that?
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<loke>
Oh nice. Thanks!
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<Josh_2>
Afternoon all
<beach>
Hello Josh_2.
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<Josh_2>
Hey beach hows the day going?
<beach>
Josh_2: Not bad. froggey just gave me permission to extract the integrated Mezzano code for both Gray streams and Common Lisp streams to a separate repository.
<beach>
That saves me from defining the same thing in SICL.
<beach>
But it would be great if I could delegate that work to someone. I guess I'll take applications including CVs for that. :)
<beach>
Josh_2: How about you?
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<beach>
And phoe told me that my presentation of first-class global environments was not that clear. So I am thinking of preparing some more, perhaps a bit longer, ones. I still have to present the compile-time aspect of such environments as well.
<phoe>
beach: very nice, regarding the streams
<beach>
Yeah, thanks!
<beach>
Pretty soon, there will be little more than the bootstrapping procedure left in the SICL repository. :)
<beach>
Nothing prevents me from extracting the CLOS+MOP implementation. Though, of course, anyone who would like to use it would have to use the SICL bootstrapping technique. :)
<beach>
I mean: (defclass t () () (:metaclass built-in-class)) might not be very "operational" in most Common Lisp implementations.
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<phoe>
not only you define a class named T, but you define it in terms of BUILT-IN-CLASS
<beach>
Indeed.
<phoe>
that's two heresies^WMOP aspects that contemporary implementations might not want to indulge in
<beach>
I suspect that's true.
<beach>
The meaning of the code is perfectly clear though. And I claim that it's the best way of expressing that meaning.
<beach>
If that code is operational, that's very good.
<Bike>
"A built-in class is a class whose instances have restricted capabilities or special representations. Attempting to use defclass to define subclasses of a built-in class signals an error of type error." oh, well
<Bike>
t prolly can't be a built-in-class, then, strictly speaking
<beach>
I am perfectly allowed to do that in a first-class global environment that is then not exposed to the ordinary user.
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<Bike>
plus "Calling make-instance to create an instance of a built-in class signals an error of type error. Calling slot-value on an instance of a built-in class signals an error of type error." etc
<beach>
Now that I agree with. :)
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<Bike>
but standard objects are also instances of t, and so on
<beach>
Oh, yeah, that's not written very well is it.
<phoe>
this should say "direct instances" instead perhaps
<Bike>
could be "direct instances" I guess
<beach>
yeah.
<phoe>
Bike: ha
<phoe>
so if that's our reading of that part of the spec, can T be a built-in-class?
<beach>
It is, yes.
<phoe>
CCL says that it can
<Bike>
that's not my reading of the spec, it's what i think it maybe ought to say instead but doesn't.
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<jeosol>
shka_: did you by any chance happen to benchmark this with Python for a runtime comparison
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<jeosol>
I am running the higgs-boson challenge (Gabor's lisp code code) example on linux box. Training still going (5 days). Gabor said it took one day on his GPU.
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<shka_>
jeosol: first of, i don't do GPU calculations
<shka_>
secondly, yes, i compared my random forest against sk-learn
<jeosol>
shka_: it's not a critique of what you did, I am just making a comment running a similar machine system.
<jeosol>
what you did is great.
<shka_>
it is faster to learn, slower to predict
<shka_>
16 seconds vs 10 seconds on learning time
<jeosol>
There was a side conversion with the maintainer of clml library about adding some connectionist methods to the library, but not sure his plans for that.
<shka_>
gradient boosting i didn't test, but you would probably want to use LGBM or something like that anyway
<shka_>
i plan to implement some of the LGBM tricks to speed gradient boosting in the future
<shka_>
but not all of those are simple
<jeosol>
shka_: very cool.
<jeosol>
shka_: is this hobby or for an application system.
<jeosol>
Have you checked out the clml library?
<shka_>
i checked, it is fine but I wanted to go into different direction than CLML
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<shka_>
namely, i wanted to have extendable, object oriented architecture
<jeosol>
shka_: ok. I am just asking. I look into assembling a small task force for these libraries in CL, but I recall CLML had a restrictive license and it was hard getting a hold of the maintainers ...
<shka_>
well, statistical-learning has a BSD license
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<jeosol>
I am not a license expert, I recall, someone pointed me to the issue with CLML when I wanted to fork and extend it. So I wanted to discuss with the guys first.
<shka_>
oddly enough, there is no performance penalty in practice from OO style in ML whatsoever
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<shka_>
because you dispatch one per a large array
<jeosol>
shka_: thanks for the link. very nice code
<shka_>
thank you, I spent today to refactor it
<shka_>
anyway, I am not getting money out of this project
<jeosol>
I think the OOP approach is cool, especially if someone wants to test another purity index or other techniques
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<shka_>
i made it because I lost my job and I had lot's of time on my hand
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<shka_>
so i decided to build something that would be useful in my past project
<jeosol>
that's cool. Are east of west of the pond?
<jeosol>
of -> or
<shka_>
east
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<shka_>
as for other tools, i also have a data fame library called vellum
<shka_>
it is used for data processing in examples
<jeosol>
yeah, I saw that
<shka_>
it is pretty nifty
<jeosol>
similar to pandas? will check to in detail later.
<shka_>
no, i wanted to emulate R + dplyr style in CL
<shka_>
so it is not like pandas
<jeosol>
ok.
<shka_>
i think that emulating pandas in CL is a waste
<jeosol>
pandas drives nuts (my opinion), but I have to learn it. I will take a look at the code in detail.
<shka_>
because design decision of pandas are driven by need of NOT executing python code
<jeosol>
I was recently looking at some videos with these tree-based methods (decision tree, ada-boost, gradient-boost, etc)
<shka_>
so cl-ds is another project of mine which has this streaming language
<shka_>
there are group-by, distinct and various aggregations
<jeosol>
the (:alias ...) forms for the columns can be generated by a macro?
<shka_>
not even a macro
<shka_>
it is a list
<jeosol>
the code layout is very nice.
<shka_>
one thing i really like about vellum is transform function
<jeosol>
yeah, I meant generating the list automatically
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<jeosol>
shka_: just saw the ->, which is supposed to emulate R, missed it initially
<shka_>
well, ~> is more like dplyr pipe
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<shka_>
or exactly like in clojure
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<jeosol>
ok. R is the other direction <-
<shka_>
well, <- is variable assignment in R
<shka_>
it is for something different
<shka_>
anyway, transform shows how i wanted to have something that feels like R
<shka_>
vellum:body is a macro
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<shka_>
and if you want let's say change column with the name TEST you can just write (transform table (body (test) (setf test (something-new))))
<shka_>
and this will do this table wide, in place if you ask nicely
<shka_>
but it is also exception safe so if you have error midway you won't clobber your existing data even if in-place is T
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<shka_>
oh, and columns are sparse so if you have huge amounts of nulls in data that's fine
<shka_>
anyway, i wanted something easy and friendly to use, even at the cost of performance
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<shka_>
and pandas drives me nuts as well :P
<jeosol>
skha_: hahah. Comment about pandas. I just hated the changes in the api, something you learn, stops working after a while, and operations are not symmetric sometimes
<jeosol>
shka_: I think your libraries are cool even if they focused solely in the tree-based methods. And yes, optimizations can be something to worry about later.
<mgsk>
Xach: is "--silent t" supposed to suppress messages like "To load ..."? It doesn't seem to be working here
<jeosol>
shka_: I didn't mean the database operations are good. I would prefer if it's doing simple things, I am not a python expert. I have to invest time to learn it I guess.
<jeosol>
nice you have postmodern integration.
<shka_>
well, the point is that if i didn't have postmodern integration, it would be very 25 lines of code to add
<shka_>
which is nice if you have some sort of triangle screws in your company
<shka_>
(which i had, a LOT)
<shka_>
anyway, working on vellum convinced me that CL is in concept a better language for data processing than python
<shka_>
but it needs tools
<jeosol>
Yeah it needs tools.
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<shka_>
and as for statistical-learning, i don't think that it is supposed to be restricted to tree models
<jeosol>
I had an email exchange with gabor about this, and that was his sentiment also, and opting for python, the array libraries are slow (his comment) on the CL side, you could do things to use Cuda, but his said tools and libraries are lacking
<jeosol>
shka_: my tree comment, was just one of focus, like it's complete and then to other techniques. Please ignore it.
<jeosol>
I was recently looking at those tree methods and trying to understand their differences
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<jeosol>
shka_: once again, good work.
<shka_>
in practice i want to have generalised random forest, causal forests and some uplift trees
<shka_>
so all trees
<shka_>
but if somebody would want to work on something different that's fine
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<shka_>
but not neural network
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<shka_>
they need a distinct approach from software architecture point of view
<jeosol>
shka_: ok, thought your other comment meant you didn't like NNs
<shka_>
eh, i kinda don't like NNs, but I consider them useful and sometimes even the best option out there
<shka_>
but i never default to NNs
<shka_>
they are PITA to work with in general
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<jeosol>
same. they are abused for sure and can give bad results, and then if you get a point that's slightly away from what it has seen, problem starts
<shka_>
and so far my clients really want models to be interpretable
<jeosol>
since they are mostly interpolators, in general
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<jeosol>
explainable?
<shka_>
yeah
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<shka_>
past midnight now
<shka_>
time to bed
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<jeosol>
ok, good night. nice conversation
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<jeosol>
thanks for the sharing the ML libraries
<shka_>
jeosol: if you want to build collection of data science tools i can say that cl-ds + vellum + statistical-learning seem to work for me pretty good
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<shka_>
obviously, that partly because i made it to my likings
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<jeosol>
ok: I'd looking into that. My interest is to build systems that are explainable with some audit trail. So I dabbled a bit with prolog
<shka_>
heh
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<shka_>
i wrote a prolog interpreter as well xD
<shka_>
but it is a toy
<jeosol>
I will see what simple problem I want to tackle first
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<jeosol>
that's nice. I am not prolog expert just that I was looking into expert systems/ explanations/audit trail
<jeosol>
not -> no
<shka_>
take a look into bayesian networks
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<jeosol>
wow, ok, that has been recommended a few times now.
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<shka_>
yup
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<shka_>
they are uncertainty aware
<jeosol>
I really should look into it.
<shka_>
and that matters a lot in practice
<jeosol>
that's great too. It does.
<jeosol>
input data is uncertainty, and so that has to be propagated to the predictions
<shka_>
if i ever get all my trees into statistical learning, i would try to go for bayesian learning
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<shka_>
while hoping that somebody figure out lisp version of torch
<shka_>
jeosol: also, belief modeling
<jeosol>
haha. Is is possible to get funding for the project
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<jeosol>
you mean like py-torch?
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<shka_>
up
<shka_>
*yup
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<shka_>
pytorch style of architecture could work in lisp even better then in python
<shka_>
(IMHO)
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<shka_>
petalisp would be very handy for doing this, but it has a radioactive license
<shka_>
which really complicates commercial use
<jeosol>
I see.
<shka_>
shame, really
<shka_>
good night
<jeosol>
We should try to assembly a task for these.
<jeosol>
We can discuss more later.
<jeosol>
I mean task force. I am fasting so my brain needs food
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