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<Harag>
morning, anybody here tried to run a docker impage on google run before? I have a docker that works locally but in google run sbcl crashes with dont know how to require
<Harag>
i suspect that there is a difference in the environment between what the docker RUN commands (used to intsall sbcl and quicklisp) do and what the CMD does which is start lisp with my code
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<no-defun-allowed>
What do you REQUIRE?
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<no-defun-allowed>
If it's an ASDF system, you would probably get a better error message if you used the appropriate Quicklisp or ASDF invocation.
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<Harag>
flexi-streams
<Harag>
if I try ql:quickload it cant find ql
<Harag>
but in urn commands it finds ql fine
<Harag>
thats why I am suspecting environment ... maybe the CMD does use the same .sbclrc or something
<Harag>
typo...in RUN commands it finds ql fine
<no-defun-allowed>
Yes, you would need to make sure Quicklisp was loaded.
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<Harag>
morning beach
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<Harag>
no-defun-allowed: FYI the google docker builds RUN command looks for .sbclrc in "/.sbclrc" and the CMD command looks for it in "/home/.sbclrc"
<no-defun-allowed>
Sure. Does it contain the Quicklisp-loading form?
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<Harag>
no-defun-allowed: "/home/.sbclrc" does not exist by the looks of it... checking to see if there are differences in (sb-int:sbcl-homedir-pathname) as well
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<Harag>
the build deploy just takes for ever :( because gcloud build does not use caching like docker build command
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<Harag>
no-defun-allowed: so the home directory differs between RUN and CMD commans...RUN = /root and CMD = /home which means its not finding quicklisp or the .sbclrc etc
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<Harag>
no-defun-allowed: but the UID for the linux user is the same! IE 0
<no-defun-allowed>
Harag: Okay, I don't know anything about Docker honestly.
<no-defun-allowed>
And I'm technically in a programming test right now.
<beach>
Harag: Leave no-defun-allowed alone! :)
<Harag>
lol
<Harag>
no-defun-allowed: nop
<Harag>
good luck with the test
<no-defun-allowed>
I mean, I know aeth and I have also had to wait for it to work when testing GitLab CI, but otherwise I don't know Docker.
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<Harag>
i was looking for a sbcl *magic* parameter to get around whatever linux magic google is doing ... asking in docker and linux forums to see how I can fix it in linux instead
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<no-defun-allowed>
Okay, done with the test now. (But I still don't know Docker, so I'm not sure what to suggest.)
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<easye>
Morning, brothers and sisters in CONS.
<Harag>
no-defun-allowed: dont worry I will find a solution eventually ;) ... and I am new to docker as well only my 3rd day
<no-defun-allowed>
Hello easye.
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<easye>
I'm trying to find an message exchange with Rich Hickey that occured in 2005-6 in which he announces he is working on what will become Clojure, and I advocate extending ABCL. But either I hallucinated this, or it never existed. Anyone know of a decent comp.lang.lisp archive from this era?
<easye>
We lost a lot when gmane.org went away.
<no-defun-allowed>
I was going to say Google Groups, but that appears to only go to 2008.
<easye>
I still curse GOOG's essential neglect of their takeover of DejaNews.
<easye>
I think somebody (Xach?) spent some time futzing with Google Groups to retrieve the articles. I think the usenet posts are still accessible via message id somehow, but an index of message ids is not available.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Maybe.
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<seok>
I am getting a string back, but I'm not sure it is the correct sig
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<flip214>
loke: Well, I just need to mangle all that together a bit. there's already 256 bits of randomness included.
<flip214>
basically, I wanted (hash (hash key) number) so that (hash key) can be calculated only once.
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<no-defun-allowed>
Unless your password has 256 bits of entropy, then you don't have 256 bits of entropy.
<no-defun-allowed>
You get 256 bits, sure, but not 256 bits of entropy. (Adding more iterations makes it harder to guess what 256 bits you did get, but it doesn't change the entropy.)
<flip214>
no-defun-allowed: no, the _input_ has 256bits of entropy already.
<no-defun-allowed>
Okay then.
<flip214>
or what the systems behind believe to be randomness, anyway ;)
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<TMA>
please, do not invent your own crypto
<flip214>
TMA: thanks for your concern (really, I mean it!)... just deriving a few (numbered) IDs from known data, not critical.
<TMA>
that's the about the only takeaway from a crypto course that stuck
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<flip214>
and the most important one! luckily we've come so far, I don't need to "optimize" crypto for 200MHz RISC processors any more ;)
<TMA>
the other is the reason behind that: it is really, really hard to do it right
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* easye
fruitlessly repeats the form (ql:update-all-dists) in the hopes it will rain tarballs...
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<jackdaniel>
this argument about not "implementing your own crypto" always sounded like a moot to me. don't build your own software because you may get it wrong too, right?
<jackdaniel>
I remember reading somewhere, that crypto standards are often deliberely obfuscated so it is easy to make mistakes, but I don't remember the source
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<jackdaniel>
not that I find it interesting to build crypto software myself
<easye>
jackdaniel: its more an admonition about the stakes of making a mistake.
<phoe>
if you screw up and use a O(n³) algorithm instead of an O(n) algorithm, your application will be unusable
<easye>
And that without a deep understanding of crytpanalysis what looks "good enough" to you may easily provide worse than no security to an adversary.
<phoe>
if you screw up while performing crypto and someone notices, usually user data leaks and/or hostile data makes its way in
<phoe>
the latter is usually a bigger concern because algorithms can be fixed and machines can be brought back up, but data leaks are not containable
<easye>
As for crypto standards being "backdoored", yes there is a long history of state actors, especially the US, deliberately weakening things.
<easye>
But the open crypto community actively tries to identify and publicize such subversions.
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<jackdaniel>
writing volunerable application which may expose the server has also big costs, but I've never heard an advice: "DO NOT WRITE YOUR OWN HTTP SERVER" ;-) I just find this 'advice' quite questionable
<jackdaniel>
or "do not write your sql database"
<easye>
jackdaniel: advice is free to take and ignore I suppose.
<jackdaniel>
yes, it is also free to comment, and I took that freedom since it appeared here
<easye>
"do not write your own sql database" is more about "why would you bother at this point?"
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<easye>
Well, as someone who has been writing blockchain stuff for the past several years, I still think "do not write your own crypto" is good advice.
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<Shinmera>
I think 'keep things on topic' is good advice
<easye>
But if you feel compelled to do so, you should be rigorous about getting someone else to review your code is.
<easye>
Shinmera: point taken.
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<jmercouris>
I don't think a user will ever type that many characters
<jmercouris>
in their minibuffer
<jackdaniel>
that calls for a library! trivial-concatenate-strings-from-vector (and a new standard)
<jmercouris>
i could be wrong of course
<pjb>
jmercouris: call-arguments-limit can be as low as 20.
<jmercouris>
nobody is running anything other than sbcl or ccl
<jmercouris>
at least for my case
<jmercouris>
unless someone wants to go out of their way and make it work on abcl or something
<pjb>
jmercouris: so you can also write #+sbcl (apply 'concatenate 'string (coerce vec 'list)) #-sbcl (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:concatenate-strings vec) but it's simplier to just write (com.informatimago.common-lisp.cesarum.string:concatenate-strings vec)
<jmercouris>
I'm not going to bring in a dependency for 1 function
<pjb>
jmercouris: otherwise there's #sbcl if you don't want a conforming Common Lisp answer.
<pjb>
jmercouris: you can use the with-output-to-string alternative.
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<matzy_>
so my friends and i are building an app (that we hope will be wildly used) and i want to write our own custom api with hunchentoot/cl. my friend, however, is worried about scalability issues and is suggesting using firebase. does hunchentoot have such scalability issues that it'd be worth it to go with firebase instead? or is it very scalable
<matzy_>
for large applications?
<phoe>
matzy_: define "large"
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<matzy_>
i dunno, they think it will be bigger than i do, maybe a few hundred simultaneous users?
<matzy_>
but it's really impossible to tell until people start using it and it either becomes big or stays niche
<phoe>
it's a bit like comparing apples to oranges; hunchentoot is a HTTP server whereas firebase is a whole infrastructure as a service platform
<matzy_>
yeah that's where i got a bit confused, we're running a react/tsx front-end hunchentoot server, so i don't see what firebase would do that we already aren't covering ourselves
<matzy_>
like i think debugging is far easier in hunchentoot with the repl
<matzy_>
i've been reading the firebase docs but i dont really see what it gets us over setting up the stack ourselves
<phoe>
firebase-scale bills™
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<pve>
matzy_: do either of you know firebase well?
<matzy_>
no
<matzy_>
it would be everyone's first time using it
<pve>
i think you need to use what you know best (that does the job) in order to get the prototype into the hands of users
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<matzy_>
and if it really blows up, we could abandon the api and switch to firebase? or is that too large of a refactor?
<phoe>
what do you mean, abandon the API? if you have a web application, you have a frontend and a backend, and you communicate via REST
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<phoe>
in the end, it doesn't matter for the end user if the REST or the frontend are served by Hunchentoot or apache or nodejs or whatever
<matzy_>
right, but doesn't firebase serve as the api?
<phoe>
I have no idea, but I would find it most weird if some cloud platform did *not* allow you to specify the REST endpoints that your application uses
<phoe>
but then again, I might be wrong
<phoe>
so, dunno!
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<matzy_>
phoe thanks for all the help!
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<p_l>
phoe: extreme end of PaaS
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<p_l>
Also, I'm technically doing that to devs in my team
<p_l>
We want to standardize the structure of endpoints
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<Xach>
fe[nl]ix: (map nil 'ql-dist:ensure-installed (mapcar 'ql-dist:system (ql:who-depends-on "bordeaux-threads"))) is one way
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<thmprover>
Good afternoon, gang
<thmprover>
What exactly is the convention with systems, modules, and packages in Common Lisp?
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<Xach>
thmprover: only packages are defined in common lisp. systems are an add-on to specify how to load a bit of software - they usually specify the source files and what order to compile and load them. modules are not really used much as defined by the standard.
<Xach>
packages are for organizing symbols, which name things. they don't work on any level other than symbols.
<Xach>
oh, and systems can also express relationships with other systems, like "to load system A, first load system B"
<thmprover>
So one project could consist of multiple systems?
<Xach>
thmprover: yes.
<thmprover>
Would it be a misleading intuition to think of systems as belonging in separate git repositories?