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<White_Flame>
matzy_: one last thing that I don't think was mentioned: if you build an executable to deploy, you can tell it which function to call on startup of the executable
<White_Flame>
so that's still left as a function to call in the code, not directly executed on load, but a separate step that the startup does
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<White_Flame>
another option is to have a batch file launch sbcl & give it cmdline parameters to tell it what to load & execute, or to run a small separate .lisp file which triggers the startup code, which is not quickloaded by default
<White_Flame>
but yeah, starting stuff automatically on load via toplevel code, especially when it takes up resources like a socket, isn't a good way to do it
<White_Flame>
maybe for doing some quick interactive iterations, but that's then removed once you've settled in on what you want to do
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<Josh_2>
phoe: I think it does update automatically
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<loke`>
re
<loke`>
foo
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<no-defun-allowed>
Josh_2: Well, you probably should have a storage protocol, which would allow you to switch between in-memory, filesystem, database backends, and so on.
<no-defun-allowed>
If you change how you use that database (eg the representation and tables), that would also reduce the amount of code you have to update.
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<Josh_2>
no-defun-allowed: initially I'm not going to have any persistent storage until I know what I want the interface to be
<Josh_2>
I will just test directly in the lisp image
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<bhartrihari>
Is there a hope for any lisp implementation to support saving a lisp image running several threads? Has this been attempted in the past?
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<Josh_2>
huh?
<Josh_2>
why would you need to do that?
<Josh_2>
just start the threads when the image starts
<bhartrihari>
To save state across slime sessions.
<bhartrihari>
Josh_2: ^^
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<Josh_2>
hmm
<Josh_2>
but you can save your lisp image, then you can connect to it with slime and that will save your slime session
<Josh_2>
thats how I work on many of my projects
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<bhartrihari>
Josh_2: What about the state changes during the slime session? They will be lost. I'm just wondering if people have attempted it, or if it is even possible.
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<Josh_2>
Just don't kill your image :P
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* Lycurgus
has moved to sly
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<bhartrihari>
I moved to sly, then moved back to slime.
<pve>
how does sly compare to slime?
<pve>
better in some ways, or strictly better?
<Lycurgus>
bhartrihari: why?
<Josh_2>
Lycurgus: I have been using it for ages
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<Lycurgus>
strictly better by default if at all since it's a fairly clear scope, cl emacs debug/ide things
<Lycurgus>
Josh_2: 'it' being sly?
<Lycurgus>
that and it (sly) runs direct against slime, name and all
<Josh_2>
yes
<Lycurgus>
ah
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<Lycurgus>
well i wanted clasp to be aware of other cl's and they looked at me like I'd sprouted a second head
<Lycurgus>
also i didn think sly was ages old, for which I would have needed at least a decade
<Lycurgus>
MVS 3.8 is ages
<Lycurgus>
sbcl as the going cmucl is ages
<Lycurgus>
sly as the new slime i didn no
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<bhartrihari>
Lycurgus: Editing multiline sexps was troublesome (for me at least) in Sly repl. I usually ended up pressing the up arrow and brought up the last history item, instead of moving a line up. Presentations are nice as well, although I don't have any special preference for them over buttons. And colours, (Yikes!) Sly needs to desaturate the colours a bit. And I use spacemacs, and Sly layer for spacemacs was
<bhartrihari>
n't outdated. I also never used the reading aids sly provided (colours).
<Lycurgus>
i c
<bhartrihari>
I mean, sly spacemacs layer was outdated.
<Lycurgus>
i forget what spacemace is
<Lycurgus>
*emacs
<bhartrihari>
It's a layer of Elisp goodness over emacs. An Emacs distro.
<Lycurgus>
i just use regular emacs, but I did in past use xemacs
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<Lycurgus>
there are typos in the sly documenation
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<Lycurgus>
like the ctl seq to select the lisp to run
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<Lycurgus>
but i think it's small minded to harp on stuff like that if the end thing/goal was done
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<bhartrihari>
I'll check it out again, it seems to have improved since I last checked.
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<White_Flame>
bhartrihari: even if saving an image paused & saved all the running threads, the sockets would all be lost, and SLIME would need specific support for resuming sessions with a new socket connection.
<White_Flame>
it wouldn't be transparent, and could theoretically be implemented even without thread serialization
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<bhartrihari>
I see. It could also be useful for saving game state, and in other things. I'm not sure how implementing that (saving repl state via slime) without thread serialization would look like.
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<bhartrihari>
White_Flame: ^^
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<White_Flame>
it's a pretty big "theoretically" ;)
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<bhartrihari>
Does smalltalk do thread serialization while saving images?
<Xach>
bhartrihari: this is a channel for common lisp
<White_Flame>
a random stackoverflow answer seems to indicate it does, so it is different than CL in that respect
<White_Flame>
CL doesn't serialize the "main thread" either
<White_Flame>
only basically the heap
<bhartrihari>
Xach, of course. But this was brought up in a conversation about saving runtime images in Common Lisp implementations.
<bhartrihari>
Lycurgus, Also, slime can connect to schemes as well, using r7rs-swank.
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<xristos>
bhartrihari: it does, you can try it out yourself if you open transcript and execute the following in a workspace window (assuming Squeak)
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<xristos>
then quit/save while the process is running
<refpga>
Thanks xristos
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<xristos>
there's a patch for Lua to do the same
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<bhartrihari>
Thanks, I'll take look at their image formats and how they do it.
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<xristos>
for CL, in practice a lot of your state is in memory (which will be dumped in an image)
<xristos>
for state present in stack frames you usually checkpoint execution, serialize to memory, dump, deserialize and create new threads on image load
<xristos>
not as convenient as saving/resuming the world but works quite well in practice
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<bhartrihari>
Do you happen to know how that compares to smalltalk? How do they serialize threads?
<xristos>
you can probably find good uptodate references online
<bhartrihari>
Sure. Thanks.
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<Lycurgus>
in fine, smalltalk threads are probably not what you think they are (machine, os ones) while common lisp ones are more likely to be
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<White_Flame>
bhartrihari: smalltalk seems to have a specified VM bytecode, which would encapsulate a standard execution state to serialize. CL is intended for whatever native compilation, with no standard intermediate/lower level representation
<bhartrihari>
I see.
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<phao>
Another question. I've heard it is possible to use the PAIP book by Norvig to learn the basics of common lisp and of AI together. Is it true or do I have to learn common lisp before going for PAIP?
<xristos>
PAIP contains a good introduction to CL, but it's not really about modern AI
<Kozo>
Anyone have an opinion on "Common Lisp in the Wild"?
<phao>
xristos, I see. All I wanted was a book on common lisp "with some applications"
<phao>
that it isn't about modern AI is fine by me.
<xristos>
phao: it's a great book and a good intro
<phao>
Thank you. Any chances you have a better recommendation?
<phao>
I intend to go on onto books later on.
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<xristos>
on lisp and let over lambda are more advanced books, both worth reading after you've written some Lisp and are comfortable with macros
<phao>
Ok.
<xristos>
the art of the metaobject protocol too
<xristos>
i would avoid practical common lisp, it's dated and doesn't have much to offer
<xristos>
PAIP is a better time investment
<phao>
I see. I actually would have guessed practical common lisp would be a better option. I didn't "go for it" because of the selection of topics in there.
<phao>
PAIP seems way more interesting.
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<xristos>
well, PAIP is a great book, almost a work of art
<xristos>
PCL is your run-of-the-mill language book
<xristos>
so if you'll only read one, make it count
<phao>
Hehe ok
<Josh_2>
wait now we have a phoe and a phao that's gonna get confusing
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<Xach>
practical common lisp is a very good book that covers parts of Common Lisp that is not treated with much detail by PAIP or any other CL book.
<Xach>
the creative use of method combinations for parsing binary file formats is a great illustration of their utility.
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