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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
<Josh_2>
Morning!
<ebrasca>
Morning!
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<beach>
I am thinking of making another SICL-related presentation for phoe's online Lisp meeting, but I need some ideas for the exact topic.
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<ebrasca>
beach: When is this phoe meeting?
<beach>
Nominally a week from now, every other Monday. But the schedule is not fixed.
<beach>
I have been thinking about it the wrong way for a few days. I am thinking ELS, but the online Lisp meeting is not an academic conference.
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<ebrasca>
beach: What do you use for this meetings?
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<beach>
Use?
<beach>
I record something using OBS, and then phoe streams it using Twitch.
<ebrasca>
Are you sure it is metting and not streaming?
<no-defun-allowed>
There are some recorded presentations, then the participants gather on heisig's Jitsi server after the presentations.
<beach>
ebrasca: Why do you ask me about phoe's stuff. I don't know much. He calls it the "online Lisp meeting", and he takes pre-recorded presentations and streams them. Twitch also allows an IRC-like chat simultaneously with the presentation.
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<ebrasca>
beach: Sory , I was interested.
<beach>
You need to ask phoe.
<ebrasca>
beach: Thanks for the info!
<beach>
Sure.
<beach>
So, no help for me with a topic. Oh well.
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<ebrasca>
beach: I am thinking , maybe optimizations sicl can make or mmmm
<ebrasca>
beach: maybe about how sicl can use full lisp to implements its parts
<beach>
That's an idea. Thank.s
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<phoe>
oh right
<phoe>
if anyone'd like to talk about something during the next Lisp meeting, the slot's freeeeeee
<no-defun-allowed>
The meeting is next Monday, right?
<phoe>
(I mean that I assume that beach's talk is not going to fill a whole hour, which means that we still have time available)
<phoe>
no-defun-allowed: if I manage to announce it today, then I'll announce it for next Monday, yes
<no-defun-allowed>
Righteo.
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<shka_>
phoe: cool
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<beach>
phoe: I am suggesting part 1 of a series of talks entitled "Creating a Common Lisp implementation"
<phoe>
beach: sounds good to me
<beach>
But if you have something else, please do that instead.
<beach>
It will be tough for me to prepare it all by Monday.
<phoe>
beach: we can delay the next meeting, no problem
<beach>
On the other hand, since it is "part 1", I can just stop when I have "enough".
<phoe>
I mean
<beach>
No, Monday is fine.
<phoe>
I can follow the philosophy of "no content, no problem" and just organize the next one whenever there's something to show
<beach>
I need the pressure to get it done, so let's aim for Monday.
<phoe>
okiedokie
<phoe>
but that means that I'll need to send the news out today and I'll need the abstract to do that
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<phoe>
how long do you think the presentation will be?
<phoe>
yep, very acceptable to me
<beach>
I guess 30 minutes. If I prepare more material than that, I can just cut it off at 30.
<beach>
Does that sound good to you?
<phoe>
you're not really required to cut it at 30 minutes since it seems you're the only speaker for next week
<beach>
OK then. I'll keep that in mind.
<shka_>
what kinds of topic are suitable?
<phoe>
shka_: lemme ask you a question
<phoe>
is it both Lisp-related and interesting to you?
<phoe>
if yes, it's suitable
<shka_>
ok
<phoe>
but I'll need an abstract of it today in order to be able to announce the speakers for the next meeting.
<shka_>
right
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<v3ga>
hey guys, sort of a basic question but is it safe to say applicative order evaluation is the same thing as tree accumulation? You're just going through evaluating each expression as far as can go then the remains are passed to the actual function?
<v3ga>
Reading SICP and just trying to put notes in my own words.
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<shka_>
v3ga: CL specifies order of evaluation
<shka_>
is that's what you are asking
<v3ga>
more so basic. I think I've got it right in my mind. Just double checking
<v3ga>
shka_: ahh that is good to know though. I see CL works from left to right. So the results for this problem I'm looking at ARE in fact different
<shka_>
glad you figured this out
<v3ga>
shka_: yup. Working through SICP but i'm going through slowly and seeing how a few languages differ, along with wrapping my head around new terms.
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<beach>
v3ga: Applicative evaluation order is the same as "eager" evaluation, which means that the arguments to a function are evaluated before the function is applied.
<beach>
v3ga: The opposite of that is "outermost" or "lazy" or "normal-order" evaluation, which means that arguments are not evaluated before the function is applied, and the evaluation is done when it is needed.
<beach>
v3ga: Applicative order is also known as call-by-value.
<beach>
However the term says nothing about the order of evaluation between the different arguments.
<beach>
Scheme and Common Lisp are both applicative order, but Scheme does not define the order between the arguments, whereas Common Lisp is always left-to-right.
<beach>
shka_: That's what you should have said. :)
<v3ga>
beach...ahh I see. Ok that's even more clear. Yeah, I sort of blended two questions. My initial question was answered by exactly what you gave me. Then I noticed the difference between scheme and cl. Cool beans =P
<v3ga>
beach: thats a perfect explanation.
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<shka_>
beach: yeah, i didn't understood the question
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<beach>
v3ga: Great, thanks!
<ralt>
... scheme doesn't define the order?
<Xach>
ralt: no
<ralt>
weird language
<Xach>
too pejorative. maybe you could classify it as ultimate freedom language.
<Xach>
(for the implementor)
<ralt>
I'm too pragmatic for that
<shka_>
ralt: scheme is a minimalist language
<shka_>
it wasn't designed for pragmatism but people seem to like enough :-)
<v3ga>
lol... John Carmack seems to like scheme. I'm just using it for SICP so I dont run into hiccups. I hear people run into issues with CL. though I would have preferred that route
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<ralt>
minimalism seems kind of orthogonal to unpredictability
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<shka_>
v3ga: scheme is fine for what it is but it makes impossible to write useful portable software
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<shka_>
but it is a fine base for embedded languages and more importantly for teaching
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<jackdaniel>
you'd have to define "useful portable software" first
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<jackdaniel>
I'm sure that they are plenty of useful programs written in scheme
<jackdaniel>
which are portable across different operating systems
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<jackdaniel>
but common lisp is a very cool language, so it is worth doing things in it ;)
<jackdaniel>
Xach: ping
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<v3ga>
jackdaniel: yes...it is. I was torn between clojure and CL. Answer. Use both! =P I really only see myself using clojure/clojurescript for web stuff but for software i've decided on Common Lisp. CL, Clojure, Go I think will be the main languages in my toolkit.
<jackdaniel>
I have plenty of fun using Common Lisp. Racket is also fun to play with with its ide. I didn't like Go despite fine cli tooling, and clojure was just annoying ;)
<v3ga>
clj is nice... Go I've just started with but I believe i'll like it.
<jackdaniel>
lukego tweeted recently a fun one: "CL is designed by geeks, Racket by school teachers, and Clojure by consultants
<jackdaniel>
"
* Cymew
waves a flag with the Rust logo on one side, CL on the other
<jackdaniel>
"... and rust by people who don't believe, that the compilation time matters" ;-)
<shka_>
"Rust has a moderately-complex type system"
<shka_>
that was understatement
<v3ga>
lol
<shka_>
regardless, CL is indeed a very cool language
<lukego>
Got my pretty-printing looking right after randomly experimenting with modifiers to ~< and ~>. I'm not sure if that's a cause for celebration or not :-)
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<Cymew>
no-defun-allowed: It's a bit of heathenry indeed. I do find rust to be a much nicer language than the alternatives, if cl is not an option. It does compile a bit slow, but when it does it just works.
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<Xach>
jackdaniel: hi
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<jackdaniel>
hey o/
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<jackdaniel>
I've pinged you on query - it seems that planet.lisp.org doesn't pick posts on the turtleware blog
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<Xach>
hmm ok
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<Xach>
jackdaniel: the transition to https fouled it up, sorry. should be better now.
<jackdaniel>
thank you, that was quick!
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<contrapunctus>
o/
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<beach>
Hello contrapunctus.
<Josh_2>
afternoon
<beach>
Hey Josh_2.
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<contrapunctus>
Hey 🙂 I seem to remember a paper - maybe one dealing with CLOS - which had a table describing four different approaches to OOP, and languages which embody them.
<contrapunctus>
I wondered if it might be "CLOS: An Overview", but that doesn't seem to be it.
<beach>
Hmm, doesn't ring a bell.
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<jackdaniel>
I have an idea what you mean, but it is an English word which doesn't stick
<jackdaniel>
it sounds similar to "immensurability", but it is about things which are not comparable
<jackdaniel>
otoh neither has a table you have mentioned so that's not it :( both are great reads
<contrapunctus>
Yeah... 🤔
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<contrapunctus>
It had a 'message based' and a 'function based' column, and a 'prototype based' and a 'class based' row.
<contrapunctus>
So Smalltalk was message/class, Self was message/prototype, I'm not sure if it put CLOS in function/class, and I'm not at all sure what goes into function/prototype.
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<TMA>
contrapunctus: with a great deal of eye squinting the last castegory might be filled with javascript
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<jackdaniel>
function based and class based sounds like common lisp
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<contrapunctus>
Aha, found it! "CLOS In Context: The Shape of the Design Space"
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<beach>
Did you just want to re-read the article, or did you have some other reasons for wanting the reference?
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<contrapunctus>
beach: someone on another channel wanted to learn about OOP, and someone suggested a C++ book. I said, OOP seems to vary a lot between languages, so maybe read about all these approaches.
<beach>
I see.
<shka_>
oh, don't learn just C++
<beach>
C++ does not seem like the best recommendation.
<shka_>
well, it is always better to know
<shka_>
but typical C++ code organization and architecture is by no means the best or the only way to program
<edgar-rft>
ah, there is only *one* way to program? :-)
<shka_>
and i blame C++ model for enterprise software retreat from OO into interface oriented lord
<shka_>
*land
* edgar-rft
praises the interface oriented lord
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<shka_>
edgar-rft: don't, it is a downgrade from OO
<shka_>
seriously
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<pve>
Could it be argued that the CLOS approach is superior to the Smalltalk approach? I'm making a smalltalk-in-lisp (for fun) so this interests me greatly. My current understanding is that there are trade-offs involved with both approaches.
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<shka_>
pve: technically it can be argued, but this is a complicated topic
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<pve>
shka_: I see, hmm
<shka_>
i mean, the one thing that lisp approach does really well is provide reach ways to combine code
<shka_>
and you can't analyze this aspect in abstract, without a concrete case studies
<heisig>
pve: The CLOS approach is to be programmable. So the question is whether you want to compare Smalltalk with standard classes and standard generic functions, or with anything that CLOS can be programmed to do.
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<pve>
heisig: good point, let's go with standard classes and standard generic functions
<edgar-rft>
pve: Tom Almy maintains XLISP-PLUS, it's a lisp-2 with a smalltalkish object system
<shka_>
jesus christ, my dyslexia is getting worse
<edgar-rft>
it's not jesus fault :-)
<shka_>
you can't be sure
<shka_>
anyway, I think that the problem with such comparisons is that there is no scientific methods to do it
<edgar-rft>
shka_: you only need to *believe* that it's all jesus' fault
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<shka_>
and no only that, if you would want to construct some sort of metrics to compare different approaches, you would need to balance various aspects, some of which are psychological
<shka_>
and good luck with that
<shka_>
that's why programming is a craft and not engineering
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<shka_>
psychology of programming should be a legit science discipline
<shka_>
if it is not already
<pve>
I mean I want to say that that Smalltalk model is technically worse than CLOS, but easier to understand. But I don't even know if that's entirely true.
<heisig>
To me it also seems that Smalltalk is much more simplistic - with all the benefits and drawbacks that this entails.
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<shka_>
pve: problem is that analyzing this detached from a practical implications is pointless
<shka_>
and therefore i would not want to argue about that
<pve>
shka_: yeah, I guess you're right
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<contrapunctus>
The table is different from how I remembered it, though.
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<pve>
I don't know if anyone is interested, but here's what I got so far: https://imgur.com/a/67oxPHk (I took screenshots because the syntax wouldn't highlight properly on the paste service)
<Josh_2>
I don't know what is going on, but I can't say I like the font :P
<pve>
the first picture shows the code for a "source file", the second shows how it gets hooked up to asdf
<pve>
Josh_2: sorry :)
<pve>
I can't font
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<Josh_2>
so is this a dsl?
<pve>
well yes, except not really "domain specific"
<pve>
more "general purpose"
<pve>
hmm maybe if the domain is "smalltalk-like message passing"
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