#lisp on 2020-07-25 — irc logs at freenode.irclog.whitequark.org

2020-03-05 15:57 p_l changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language | <https://irclog.tymoon.eu/freenode/%23lisp> <https://irclog.whitequark.org/lisp> <http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/> | ASDF 3.3.4

00:00 <_death> I've done so here https://adeht.org/casts/new-project.html

00:00 <Harag> the one thing that did not make the cut for the standard was the format read macro # as far as I can see or did it just become another char

00:00 <Harag> yeah I had a look at sbcl code before I found XP

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00:01 <Harag> maybe now that I worked through the xp code the sbcl code will make more sense

00:01 <_death> do you mean #" ?

00:02 <Harag> yes

00:03 <_death> long ago, #" was syntax for bit vectors.. creatures like #"101010" walked the earth.. then Pitman proposed a change

00:04 <_death> here's a small writeup https://gist.github.com/death/e9f975bb9ed13f43fd7653c9429e649c

00:06 <Harag> cl history is fascinating

00:07 <_death> https://cl-su-ai.cddddr.org/msg03341.html

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00:08 <Harag> I am seriously going to have to re-organize my bookmarks soon, and take a year or two's sabatical to read and grok it all

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00:09 <_death> if you're using emacs and gnus, I recently put up a gnus-friendly-archives repository for easy reading

00:10 <Harag> yes using emacs and ubuntu

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00:12 <Harag> mmm gnus does not eql linux

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00:13 <_death> https://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/html_node/gnus/

00:14 <Harag> aaah

00:16 <Harag> will try it, but I use a colemak and trying to use some of the emacs packages becomes a night mare you have to redo all the key bindings to not break your fingers

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00:16 <Harag> -a

00:17 <_death> basic operation in gnus is easy, but it does have lots of strange keybindings

00:20 <_death> also, a local leafnode server and fetchmail is great as it makes remote fetching from gnus unnecessary

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00:21 <Harag> lol at the "Emacs for Heathens"

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00:31 <Harag> what is the link to that archives repo?

00:32 <_death> https://github.com/death/gnus-friendly-archives

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00:49 <Harag> _death: thanx for the advice and links, will spend some time trying out set-pprint-dispatch, it should be enough for now.

00:51 <_death> np.. time to sleep, night

00:51 <Harag> yeah same her good night

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01:35 <seok> came across an odd behaviour. (unless possible-hash (setf x (gethash key possible-hash)) signals asserted value error

01:35 <seok> while changing unless to if does not

01:35 <seok> possible hash is either a hash or nil

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01:50 <Alfr> seok, possible-hash has to be a hash-table. gethash tries to retrieve the value associated with key.

01:50 <seok> Alfr only when unless clause in true

01:50 <seok> I switched unless to if and it works fine

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01:55 <Alfr> seok, oh ... yeah. for possible-hash being nil, unless will execute its body, so all is well, because then gethash gets nil for the hash-table and barfs.

01:55 <seok> oh does unless not work like y

01:55 <seok> if?

01:56 <Alfr> seok, you're looking for "when".

01:56 <seok> ah

01:56 <seok> wait did I just do that?

01:56 <seok> silly mistake

01:56 <seok> you're right

01:57 <Alfr> We all should sleep occasionally.

01:58 <seok> ~.~

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03:12 <borei> hi all !

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03:17 <borei> slowly moving my project from C++ to lisp, wanted to move everything 100 %, but seems like still need to use C (not C++) as CFFI calls, mainly because of performance. Honestly i don't know should i expect lisp performance close to C. If somebody open for discussion - i'd more then happy. Lisp code is here - https://pastebin.com/hVwBH2Kb

03:17 <borei> main troublemaker is b-spline function.

03:18 <borei> im getting lisp performance very close to C without optimization. However if C code compiled with O1 or even with -O2 - difference is huge.

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03:47 <moon-child> borei: do you have c code for comparison?

03:47 <borei> sure sure

03:47 <borei> one sec

03:48 <moon-child> you can try disassembling the function, which may help you locate specific areas for optimization

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03:48 <moon-child> on a completely unrelated note, you can replace (- i 1) with (1- i)

03:49 <borei> https://pastebin.com/vj533qSp - C implementation

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03:52 <borei> im suspecting that lisp is not so efficient working with array, like C

03:52 <moon-child> I think it's probably the boundschecks. Afaik (safety 0) is just for type safety, not bound safety

03:53 <borei> what is the boundscheck ?

03:54 <borei> well, i understand it, but what is happening on the lisp side ?

03:54 <moon-child> when you say (aref nodes x), it has to make sure that x>=0 and x<(length nodes)

03:54 <borei> aha

03:54 <moon-child> but in c, u[x] makes no such check

03:55 <borei> and seems like O2 optimization in C is terning it off

03:55 <borei> that can explain

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03:55 <moon-child> no, c never has bounds checks

03:55 <borei> right right

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03:56 <moon-child> oh, no, I'm wrong; (safety 0) does turn off boundschecks

03:56 <beach> Good morning everyone!

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04:04 <borei> hmm, i have safety 0, and forced error with negative array index

04:04 <borei> and it catch it

04:05 <borei> was expecting segfault

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04:06 <moon-child> ah, huh. I tried to aref with an out-of-bounds index (length was three index was 20) and got back nil

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04:09 <beach> borei: You probably have to combine low safety with low debug and high speed.

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04:10 <borei> (optimize (debug 0) (safety 0) (speed 3)) - that is what i have

04:10 <borei> https://pastebin.com/hVwBH2Kb - entire code

04:10 <beach> Oh, OK.

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04:12 <borei> worst case scenario - how expensive is CFFI call ?

04:13 <markasoftware> not that bad borei, you can do tens of millions per second

04:13 <markasoftware> of basic cffi calls

04:14 <markasoftware> anyway, onto my question...is `(setf (return-code*) 403) (abort-request-handler)` the correct way to do an http error in hunchentoot?

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04:37 <shangul> I just saw http://cl21.org/ and I thought I don't like it... Do the others here have the same opinion as me?

04:38 <beach> I know very few people who like it.

04:38 <beach> Maybe only the author.

04:39 <beach> Oh, I didn't realize the author was Fukamachi.

04:39 <beach> Interesting.

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04:40 <shangul> IMO, the problem's that it is making Common Lisp less Lispy by taking features and syntax of the other language

04:40 <shangul> If instead of this they work on what ANSI hasn't talked about and we need them

04:40 <shangul> like socket programming or multithreading

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04:42 <beach> Well, the main problem is that Fukamachi is making the same mistake as many others, i.e., he thinks he has found the reason why Common Lisp is not as widely used as he thinks it ought to be, and he also thinks he knows how to fix it. The problem is that he, and all the others, are wrong about why Common Lisp is not more widely used, and also wrong about what would make it so.

04:42 <shangul> It would be very cool if someone or some group change some stuff in the old ANSI Common Lisp and provide a new backward compatible standard

04:43 <beach> Why would it be "cool" to change the standard?

04:43 <shangul> beach, Well perhaps I have used the wrong term

04:43 <shangul> It would be nice and useful

04:43 <bjorkintosh> common lisp is like labor unions in the united states. its ideas were great and ahead of the time, but have been adopted (with varying results) by many industries at last, leading to a decline in unions.

04:43 <bjorkintosh> a victim of its own success.

04:44 <beach> shangul: Why would it be nice and useful?

04:44 <beach> Look, people use languages without a standard all the time. In fact, if I understand things right, Python is the most popular programming language these days, and it doesn't have a standard.

04:44 <shangul> beach, Why we don't have a single widely used standard defined for socket programming(as an example)

04:44 <bjorkintosh> English too!

04:44 <shangul> :)

04:45 <beach> shangul: Why do you need for it to be a standard? Like I said, people use non-standard stuff all the time.

04:45 <moon-child> shangul: if implementations were willing to agree on a standard for sockets|threads, they would have done it already. At this point, if you made a new standard, it would be *competing*, not *unifying*

04:45 <beach> shangul: Why is it that, for Common Lisp, it has to be in the standard?

04:45 <shangul> <beach> Look, people use languages without a standard all the time. In fact, if I understand things right, Python is the most popular programming language these days, and it doesn't have a standard. => In this, Python and CL are a bit different

04:45 <beach> This is a recurring discussion, and it is REALLY BORING.

04:46 <beach> Lots of people seem to have the key to making Common Lisp more popular, and all of them are wrong.

04:47 <beach> It is not about the language itself. So stop trying to change the language, or the standard, in order to make it more popular.

04:47 <beach> It won't work.

04:47 <bjorkintosh> what's the key?

04:48 <beach> People must be exposed to it before they have many years of experience with languages that are totally different, or else they will reject Common Lisp for reasons known as "cognitive dissonance".

04:48 <bjorkintosh> hah! good point.

04:49 <beach> I have said this many, many times.

04:49 <beach> Our minds can not cope with a situation where we have used a programming language for many years, perhaps a decade or more, and then we are told that there is something better.

04:49 <beach> So our minds invent reasons to reject that other thing.

04:49 <moon-child> beach: if you don't want to become an advocate, don't waste your breath. Otherwise, don't complain about having to advocate things. :)

04:50 <beach> Fine, I'll shut up. Good luck changing the standard.

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04:50 <Oladon> Evening, beach! How's your day going? :)

04:51 <moon-child> I agree with you. Just saying, if you don't like telling people they're wrong, then there's not much point

04:51 <shangul> Well for Python there is a dictator which rules and there is just one really widely used implementation of Python. Of course there are others but not widely used and I think the main implementation is the reference one. But for CL there is no dictator so there exist multiple implementations and if the standard does not talk about, for example, socket programming, then it makes implementations have their own socket API, each one

04:51 <shangul> different than the other one(of course there is a portable socket library which works on almost all implementations but why it has to be like this? Wouldn't it be nicer if we had socket programming specified in the standard and no need to a library with thousands of lines of code.

04:51 <beach> Oladon: Not so well, as you can see.

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04:51 <shangul> )

04:51 <Oladon> beach: I ah, was hoping there were other parts that were going better. Like Lisp or tasty food or something. :)

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04:52 <beach> I just barely finished my morning coffee. Getting out of this discussion will help already.

04:52 <shangul> Well that's my current opinion but since I am a noob, yet, perhaps I should talk not about these stuff till I get to a good level of CL.

04:52 <Oladon> Fair enough, beach.

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04:52 <Oladon> shangul: That's probably the wisest thing you've said so far ;)

04:52 <shangul> And I am not thinking to make users of CL more by this.

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04:54 <shangul> Oladon, I know I'm just a noob/beginner. So you can joke at me like this ;)

04:55 <Oladon> shangul: I'm not joking, nor am I talking about your "noob" comment. It is wise to seek to understand before you seek to change.

04:55 <shangul> aha

04:55 <shangul> I thought you were joking at me because I am a noob :))

04:56 <shangul> IMO: In short, for languages like Python the reference is the dictator's implementation but for CL it is different: The standard is reference.

04:57 <moon-child> shangul, in the cl I write, the standard is sbcl

04:57 <shangul> moon-child, CL you write?

04:58 <moon-child> when I write cl, I write it according to sbcl's behaviour, not the standard's behaviour

04:58 <shangul> If everyone was considering SBCL as reference, it would be very nice.

04:59 <shangul> (Or any other CL implementation)

04:59 <Oladon> shangul: Why do you think nobody here is agreeing with you?

05:00 <shangul> I totally don't think about it(agreeing or not agreeing) till I get reply for members of the channel.

05:00 <shangul> But because I am just a beginner, I consider my opinions likely, wrong.

05:01 <Oladon> Then why are you proclaiming them so loudly?

05:01 <bjorkintosh> empty barrels tend to make loud drums

05:02 <shangul> My opinions might be either right or wrong and if they are wrong, I need someone to guide me.

05:02 <Oladon> bjorkintosh: Heh, haven't heard that one before. I like it.

05:02 <shangul> and to correct me

05:03 <bjorkintosh> Oladon, thanks. it was very recently coined. might do with some editing.

05:03 <Oladon> shangul: If you seek to truly learn Lisp, then you will discover the rightness or wrongness of those opinions over time. There is little to be gained from trying to provoke people into telling you you're wrong about such things at this point in your journey.

05:03 <shangul> <bjorkintosh> empty barrels tend to make loud drums => Yeah we have this proverb in our language too. And I am sorry of I was an empty barrel...

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05:04 <Oladon> bjorkintosh: Ah, I was thinking I'd probably remember it as "empty barrels make loud drums", just concissify it a bit

05:04 <bjorkintosh> I happen to like steel drum bands.

05:05 <Oladon> I like to cut empty barrels in half and put dirt in them...

05:05 <shangul> Oladon, You are right, but that way takes more time. Why not instead using other experienced people's expertise instead of experiencing them all myself?

05:05 <Oladon> But that's getting fairly off-topic :P

05:05 <Oladon> shangul: Depends on your target outcomes.

05:05 <Oladon> Imagine that I decided to learn Korean.

05:06 <Oladon> I could join a Korean channel and loudly proclaim "The Korean language is silly! Look, I can speak it: bok gum il nuk!"

05:07 <Oladon> I'm sure people would immediately jump on me and tell me how no, that's not Korean, it makes no sense, etc. etc. etc.

05:07 <Oladon> Is that really a good way for me to learn?

05:07 <bjorkintosh> No!

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05:08 <bjorkintosh> best way to learn is in an interactive environment which gently nudges you away from the errors you will commit.

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05:08 <Oladon> ^ Nailed it. And which helps you focus on the important things, and not worry about silly distractions.

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05:08 <shangul> Oladon, You are just right

05:09 <shangul> And let me get back to my job and if I did or said anything wrong, I apologize to channel's members.

05:09 <bjorkintosh> you don't learn korean by studying law... that'll be dreadful.

05:09 <bjorkintosh> start with ... korean movies and drama! all the fun stuff!

05:10 <Oladon> Or Hangul, if you're a language nerd like me...

05:10 * Oladon doesn't actually speak Korean (well, I know one word), but it's on the list for one of these days.

05:11 <moon-child> I've been trying to learn german by reading german novels. Hasn't worked out...yet!

05:11 <Oladon> moon-child: Be sure to keep us posted!

05:12 <Oladon> Now, then... to go to bed, or add a new feature to my project...

05:13 <moon-child> sleep is for the week!

05:13 <moon-child> err

05:13 <Oladon> Mmm, sleep for a week...

05:13 <moon-child> this is the weekend

05:14 <aeth> On the earlier topic... People use languages that they're made to use. Microsoft makes you use C#, your job makes you use Java because Sun-then-Oracle has good sales teams, your browser makes you use JavaScript, the library you need uses Python, your Unix probably comes with bash, etc.

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05:14 <Oladon> Nuuuuuuu, we managed to kill that topic

05:14 <Oladon> Don't bring it back!

05:15 <aeth> If you want to make CL popular, force people to use it :p

05:15 <Oladon> Heh. Good luck with that...

05:15 <Oladon> Java is also popular because it's impossible to write bad code in it.

05:15 <aeth> luck or tens/hundreds of millions of dollars, either works

05:15 <Oladon> It's also impossible to write good code in it, but...

05:17 <shangul> I was looking for a cherrypy alternative for CL and I found ningle. It seems very cute just like cherrypy :))

05:19 <aeth> Anyway, if you want a programming language to dominate the world you must first dominate the world :-p

05:20 <Oladon> like me!

05:21 <aeth> like you on Facebook?

05:21 <shangul> When I was in highschool I was trying to make a friend of mine to learn CL (CL is nice, CL has this has that...) But he didn't go learn CL...

05:22 <shangul> After months when he saw CL himself, he started to talk about CL

05:22 <shangul> "What a great language, programmable? cool I will use it for my projects, etc"

05:22 <shangul> And now he wants to learn CL

05:22 <Oladon> aeth: what's a face book?

05:23 <aeth> I think it's an obscure synonym to "yearbook" but I could be wrong

05:23 <Oladon> oh, so like "sign my yearbook"?

05:24 <Oladon> slang is so weird

05:24 <shangul> CL's community is somehow strange: It is decades which a small community use CL but the community does not grow much neither dies. From each generation a few find Lisp and learn it

05:24 <shangul> And in this way CL is still alive!

05:24 <aeth> until everyone moves to something like coalton :-p

05:24 <Oladon> The world can only sustain so many enlightened life forms.

05:29 <aeth> look at a huge part of the universe that hasn't heard of Lisp yet: https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Hubble_Extreme_Deep_Field_(full_resolution).png

05:30 <aeth> If there is a universal quota, I think there's enough space in it for everyone on Earth to learn Lisp

05:31 <Oladon> aeth: There's not. The required space per enlightened being expands with the universe.

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05:31 <aeth> So there's a Lisp density function?

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05:47 <Oladon> Indeed.

05:50 <Oladon> G'night!

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09:06 <Harag> morning

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09:06 <beach> Hello Harag.

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09:08 <Harag> beach: I cleaned up the XP code last night and made an .asd for it and it mostly works but a lot of the 600 plus test cases fail and some of "game over style" but interestingly sbcl does the same on some of those tests.

09:08 <phoe> are you working on a portable pretty printing package?

09:08 <phoe> or, as I've just decided to call it, (p²)²?

09:09 <Harag> _death: gave me an education last night and by the looks of it the XP became the standard but XP is no longer aligned to the standard

09:09 <beach> Harag: I see.

09:09 <Harag> so to make it portable I have to realign it to the standard

09:09 <phoe> it's old code, so no doubt that the standard moved on

09:09 <phoe> I had to do the same with kmp's original condition system

09:09 <phoe> thankfully ANSI-TEST exists so I could use those to verify the condition system

09:09 <Harag> I dont think there is a big difference phoe

09:10 * phoe nods, goes afk

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09:11 <Harag> what I need to understand first is why the use of eval-when in a lot of places in his code.

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09:12 <Harag> https://gitlab.com/Harag/xpx-pretty-printer

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09:12 <Harag> ther is what I have done so far

09:13 <phoe> > to be a portable pretty printer for CLtL2 again

09:13 <phoe> might want to use ANSI CL rather than CLtL2, the two differ at times

09:13 <Harag> ok

09:13 <Harag> *sigh*

09:14 <Harag> phoe are the links in the readme for cltl2 or ansi?

09:15 <phoe> "the standard" links to ANSI CL

09:15 <phoe> since that links to CLHS which is ANSI CL

09:15 <phoe> and in practice we're all here doing ANSI CL, with some nice things backported from CLtL2

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09:20 <Harag> what nice things from cltl2?

09:20 <Harag> and dare I ask why the ansi cl dorpped them

09:20 <phoe> mostly environment introspection facilities

09:21 <phoe> the committee decided not to include them in the standard, though I dunno why - maybe the X3J13 issues have some insight

09:22 <beach> It is a good thing that the environment-inspection functions weren't included. As I explain in the Trucler documentation, they are not extensible and not complete.

09:23 <beach> I think that many features were rejected because they felt that they were not quite right, but they did not have time to invent better ones.

09:23 <Harag> is it that they are in principal not extensible or just not designed extesible in cltl2

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09:24 <beach> They use multiple values in a way that can't be extended.

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09:24 <beach> Trucler, on the other hand, uses generic functions and standard classes, so the protocols are both extensible and adaptable to different clients.

09:27 <beach> And they don't cover blocks and TAGBODY tags.

09:27 <beach> So they HAVE to be extended to be useful.

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09:37 <Harag> is there a print readable equivilant for set-pprint-dispatch or is expeted that printing readable would use pprint-dispatch table

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10:32 <Harag> correct me if I am wrong please setting *print-pretty* to t causes "The information in this table takes precedence over all other mechanisms for specifying how to print objects."

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10:34 <Harag> so if you wanted to override any printing behaviour you can just set *print-pretty* and supply an entiry to *print-pprint-dispatch*

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14:11 <froggey> Hello #lisp!

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14:11 <froggey> Mezzano Demo 5 is finally out, featuring improved disk file system support, SMP support, a USB stack, a more robust network stack, and more

14:12 <froggey> https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/releases/tag/demo5

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14:12 <beach> Hey froggey.

14:12 <beach> Congratulations!

14:13 <lukego> cool :)

14:13 <froggey> thank you

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14:14 <edgar-rft> thanks froggey, wrongly read "USB stick" :-)

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14:16 <froggey> heh, USB [memory] sticks should be supported now

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14:17 <jackdaniel> froggey: congrats

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14:58 <beach> froggey: You know that, according to Tanenbaum and Bos, Mezzano can not possibly exist.

15:00 <froggey> I've see a lot of people say that over the years, though not so many recently

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15:02 <beach> Those two are respected and supposedly very knowledgeable. In their book Modern Operating Systems, they make it very clear that operating systems can not be written in a language with automatic memory management.

15:02 <beach> I have unfortunately lost the page reference.

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15:04 <beach> But, yes, among less knowledgeable people, it is more common. I had a student once, who laughed very hard when it was suggested to him that one could actually use sockets with Common Lisp.

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15:07 <froggey> it's a bit shocking how C and Unix have become the possible only way to do an operating system, especially after looking back and seeing all the unusual systems that used to exist

15:08 <beach> Indeed.

15:08 <beach> The Unix Haters Handbook has a lot to say about Unix compared to those existing unusable systems.

15:10 <beach> I mean, they must have been unusable, since Unix made them disappear.

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15:11 <beach> Now, there were good ones and bad ones from a user point of view. VM/CMS was quite bad.

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15:12 <beach> VMS was probably good as a deployed system, but as a development environment, it was definitely not great.

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15:16 <mfiano> beach: I found a couple page references

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15:26 <beach> Care to share?

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15:26 <mfiano> Here's what I could find in my copy: https://gist.github.com/mfiano/812334abf896182f589cc9a9f1997b2e

15:28 <tychoish> if I wanted to have project-local dependencies (e.g. load a system from a git submodule or even something vendored, rather than from quicklisp/local-projects,) is there a convention that I should follow, or something that would be good to look at as an example?

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15:28 <beach> mfiano: Yes, it was the "show stopper" I was referring to.

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15:30 <froggey> ha. the solution to that is simple: allow interrupt handlers to interrupt the GC

15:31 <mfiano> tychoish: There isn't a convention for that, because all transitive dependencies need to be followed and fetched, and ASDF/Quicklisp manage that. The solution would be to have a project-local Quicklisp installation, but that would surely be buggy and painful, as similar projects that attempt that such as qlot are.

15:31 <beach> froggey: Yes, there are a number of solutions to that "problem".

15:32 <tychoish> that makes sense

15:32 <puchacz> from the book excerpts: "and predictable" - but is any complex algorithm actually predictable in terms of malloc/free patterns, when consuming real world data?

15:33 <beach> malloc/free are certainly not predictable that way.

15:33 <tychoish> I have a fork of something that I have in my local-projects directory, but that seems like a very specific solution. I suppose adding a project-specific local directory to ql's search path, and checking things out there would work, I guess?

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15:33 <mfiano> tychoish: I would suggest looking at qlot, but do so with the expectation of many hairs pulled from your head

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15:34 <phoe> froggey: is there any changelog for mezzano5?

15:34 <phoe> oh, I see up in the log

15:34 <phoe> congrats

15:34 <mfiano> Quicklisp itself will not pick up systems automatically if they are in sub-directories

15:34 <puchacz> and congratulations, froggey :-)

15:35 <phoe> #'ql:register-local-projects

15:35 <tychoish> yeah, I've been trying to keep things very vanilla quicklisp and stay away from things like qlot

15:35 <mfiano> Right

15:35 <phoe> I think it was even added as a restart to recent versions of the ql client

15:36 <froggey> phoe: there's a little bit more in the readme, https://github.com/froggey/Mezzano/blob/master/README.md "Major changes since Demo 4"

15:36 <mfiano> The problem with adding a project-local fork to Quicklisp will infact override the upstream version for any other dependents, which would potentially break curated Quicklisp dists

15:36 <phoe> froggey: thanks

15:36 <phoe> SMP! can I use bordeaux-threads now?

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15:39 <froggey> multithreading & BT support has been around for ages, SMP is specifically to take advantage of multicore/multicpu systems

15:39 <froggey> with multiple threads running concurrently, instead of switching between them on a single core

15:39 <phoe> oh, you mean that these threads all executed on a single CPU core?

15:39 <phoe> I see

15:40 <froggey> yes, that's how it was previously

15:40 <froggey> now if you run it on a multicore cpu it'll take advantage of all the cores

15:40 <mfiano> Amazing work you're doing froggey. Thanks!

15:41 <phoe> yes, that's amazing work :O

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15:42 <froggey> thank you all

15:43 <phoe> this is one amazing robustness and programmer quality of life release

15:43 <phoe> I'll want to contribute one day and work on a non-StW GC for it

15:43 <froggey> yes, no big flashy features this time, just behind the scenes stuff

15:43 <phoe> that's the important stuff

15:44 <phoe> that allows flashy stuff to get written

15:44 <beach> phoe: So you are interested in garbage collection? Have you read what my plans are for SICL (in the SICL specification)?

15:44 <froggey> Doom did get a significant improvement from it: unboxed ub64 arithmetic means it doesn't cons anywhere near as much, so goes much longer between GCs

15:45 <phoe> beach: I've taken a look but I don't remember anymore - could you link me?

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15:45 <beach> http://metamodular.com/SICL/sicl-specification.pdf I imagine.

15:45 <beach> Let me verify...

15:46 <phoe> maybe both SICL and Mezzano could benefit for it if we are real lucky and I actually finish that thing

15:46 <puchacz> is SICL the framework for Clasp? I am getting lost with these new developments :)

15:46 <phoe> kinda sorta no

15:46 <beach> puchacz: Sort of.

15:46 <puchacz> (I saw drmeister's video a while ago)

15:46 <phoe> SICL is a new modular implementation of CL that's written in Lisp

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15:47 <phoe> Clasp is an implementation of CL that interoperates with C++

15:47 <phoe> both share a compiler that's named Cleavir

15:47 <beach> puchacz: Clasp uses a Cleavir-based compiler. And Cleavir is part of the SICL *project*, but not of the SICL implementation.

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15:47 <phoe> the SICL version has evolved in its own way over time but some things get backported.

15:47 <beach> I mean, SICL obviously also uses a Cleavir-based compiler.

15:48 <puchacz> okay, so they share the compiler but other common lisp code is not shared, right?

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15:48 <beach> Right. The Common Lisp code of Clasp was taken from ECL.

15:48 <phoe> don't know how much other SICL code Clasp uses; there'd probably be libs like Eclector though

15:49 <phoe> I don't know if Clasp uses the ECL reader

15:49 <beach> Me neither.

15:49 <jackdaniel> clasp was forked from ecl where C core was rewritten in C++ with preserving semantics

15:49 <jackdaniel> then it evolved further

15:49 <puchacz> and if I want to use numerical libraries and do not use dreadful Python, which Lisp is my best best these days?

15:49 <jackdaniel> and possibly replaced its reader with something else

15:50 <phoe> puchacz: clasp is developed so existing C++ code can be reused from Lisp environment

15:50 <phoe> so if you have any C++ libraries, then you should be able to use these from inside clasp

15:50 <phoe> as for C libraries, everything that has CFFI should work

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15:51 <puchacz> ok

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16:06 <phoe> beach: I've read it. I wonder if this stuff can be adapted to Mezzano?

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16:07 <phoe> Also, how does SICL the fact that the GC thread may allocate as well?

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16:08 <froggey> unlikely, SICL & Mezzano use wildly different object models, and SICL's GC depends heavily on the SICL object model

16:09 <phoe> froggey: is the Mezzano one documented anywhere?

16:10 <froggey> not yet, sorry

16:11 <froggey> it changed a lot during development, but I think it's almost reached a stable point. it might be time to document it

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16:19 <froggey> the most significant difference between the two is that SICL uses a separate two-word header "object" ("dyad" I think it's called?) for all heap objects, while Mezzano keeps the header and object combined

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16:48 <bhartrihari> Hi froggey, congrats for the new demo release. I'm trying to run it using qemu on GuixSD using the following command, but all I get is a black screen after it prints "Starting system" and the entrypoint. The command I'm using is sudo qemu-system-x86_64 -hda Mezzano.Demo.5.vmdk -m 2G -enable-kvm -vga virtio -display sdl,gl=on -net user -net nic,model=virtio

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16:49 <bhartrihari> I've tried running both Mezzano and Mezzano Freestanding, both end up in a totally black screen.

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16:49 <froggey> can you remove "-vga virtio -display sdl,gl=on" and try again?

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16:49 <kpoeck> regarding clasps reader, clasp use eclector as its reader (and a c++ reader for bootstraping)

16:50 <kpoeck> actually clasp seem to prove a lot of beach points regarding a cl-implementation bootraped from c/c++

16:50 <bhartrihari> froggey, yes that worked.

16:51 <froggey> do you have a NVIDIA graphics card?

16:51 <bhartrihari> froggey, No. Intel 5000 graphics I think.

16:52 <bhartrihari> It's a Macbook air, early 2015.

16:52 <froggey> ok, thanks. I've had other people report problems with NVIDIA cards

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16:55 <lonjil> Mezzano is looking pretty slick. (though, I will probably never get used to emacs-like key bindings)

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16:57 <froggey> thanks, you can always build it yourself and change them

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17:00 <xristos> froggey: is there an architectural document somewhere that explains subsystems or gives a general overview of how it works?

17:00 <xristos> maybe a paper

17:02 <froggey> nope, sorry

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17:49 <beach> phoe: Yeah, I think froggey is right. It depends crucially on the object representation.

17:50 <beach> phoe: The GC threads should not allocate anything.

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17:51 <beach> kpoeck: What specific points are you thinking of?

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18:19 <kpoeck> beach: in clasp we seem to need to load "inline.lisp" twice in order to get best results in some cases, perhaps because of a cyclic dependency

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18:20 <kpoeck> And in general we build in 3 phases, and definition for earlier phases must be written in pidgin common lisp

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18:36 <markasoftware> If, for example, I have mutually exclusive initargs, is it sensible to have a :before method on initialize-instance to (assert (not (and initarg1 initarg2))) ?

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19:00 <jackdaniel> markasoftware: yes, some better error message could help

19:00 <jackdaniel> and you usually want to check for initarg-supplied-p

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20:07 <phoe> beach: then we're required to write the GC without any allocations, so we can't e.g. use #'mapcar or #'cons or such

20:07 <phoe> unless we can DX everything

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