<jcowan>
It would certainly have to be a portability library.
<jcowan>
But my question is not "What facilities do existing CLs actually provide?" but "What facilities should such a library provide?" The first can be settled by investigation, the second only by design.
<jcowan>
The maximalist version would be something that given a structure-object would return its structure-class, and then functions or methods that given a structure-class would return the de re values of the keyword arguments to defstruct (that is, the actual functions etc., not their names).
<jcowan>
That would be sufficient, given a structure-class, to construct another structure-class just like it (using eval); if you don't want to use eval, there would also need to be a function that is the equivalent of defstruct.
<jcowan>
The first requirement is met by class-of, at least I hope it is. But is it actually necessary in practice to find out *all* those things about a given structure-object in order to usefully manipulate it without knowing the names of the copier, constructor, predicate, etc. etc.?
<jcowan>
IOW, is there a subset of them that is still useful?
<Bike>
if i was designing from scratch i would drop the defstruct interface because it sucks, and instead have a new metaclass/whatever that indicates no redefinition is possible but still defines through defclass
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<jcowan>
I see there is a QL library called deftclass that allows you to create a class as if it were a struct: that is, with minimum mental (and typing) overhead. I haven't explored it closely yet.
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<aeth>
Bike: no need for that to be a from-scratch design since you could just deprecate DEFSTRUCT and have it simply be sugar for creating the metaclass (as well as the handful of other things it creates, like COPY-FOO and MAKE-FOO)
<aeth>
(well... to be deprecated in a future revision, which is even more meaningless than being deprecated)
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<aeth>
A standard implementation of DEFSTRUCT on top of DEFCLASS could be an interesting CDR, if people still do that.
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<coltkirk>
hello, i'm tying to use the maiden package to make an irc bot (in another room). https://pastebin.com/vSbm6vrJ there's the paste. I'm using slime/sbcl.
<Bike>
are you running into a problem?
<coltkirk>
yes, I type the code in exactly as the official documentation states, but get several errors. The connection attempts but fails in a loop
<Bike>
i probably can't help you, but you'll get better advice if you describe the problem in detail, such as by putting the error messages in a pastebin
<ealfonso>
I like the explicit error handling approach of golang and google c++ statusor, is there something similar in lisp?
<Bike>
how does it work?
<ealfonso>
in c++ there is a type StatusOr<T>, which could be a value or an error. then there are macros: ASSIGN_OR_RETURN(auto value, file::GetFileContents(filename));
<ealfonso>
GetFileContents may return a status (error), which is propagated to the caller of the function containing ASSIGN_OR_RETURN
<Bike>
so an option type?
<ealfonso>
assuming that function also has a StatusOr<T> type
<ealfonso>
return type.
<ealfonso>
yeah, I wasn't familiar with the name "option type". I haven't seen much CL code using this pattenr
<Bike>
me neither. it's related to having things that return a value or nil, but more involved with the monad kind of stuff
<ealfonso>
the thing about returning nil for an error is that it makes it hard for a lower-level utility function to propagate the reason of an error up the stack to a caller who may be in a better position to handle it, e.g. display a message to the user, try again, etc. of course this could be done using conditions.
<ealfonso>
but it seems more tedious to define the condition, handle it.
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<ealfonso>
if-let doesn't give you context on where execution stopped because of a nil, and why
<ealfonso>
another problem with nil as sentinel for error is that it conflicts with "empty, no error"
<ealfonso>
one could write an "if-let-ok" macro, where the let expressions return an option type as 2-values, and with the "else" clause capturing the first non-ok option. but it would be an uphill battle since most existing code doesn't use this convention.
<jcowan>
https://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-189/srfi-189.html is a very new proposal for Maybe aka Option and Either types for Scheme, but there is no reason it couldn't be translated to CL. It also has a number of protocol converters that interchange between Maybe objects and various other conventions: value or NIL, 1 or more values or 0 values, etc. etc.
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<ealfonso>
interesting. yeah, I'm curious to follow how that will go, and maybe it could be adapted to CL.
<ealfonso>
for now I will start using an "if-let-ok" macro pattern for new code and seeing how it goes
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<Bike>
i feel like monads use some of their luster in an environment that doesn't use a lot of pattern matching
<coltkirk>
for what it's worth, although the new package 'maiden,' does not work as described, the former package 'colleen' seems to work just fine.
<Bike>
plus Just conses
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<beach>
Good morning everyone!
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<jcowan>
ealfonso: It's stable now.
<jcowan>
The general monad library does what Haskell does under the covers: you pass around an object with procedures in it that contain the basic necessities.
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<beach>
aeth: Do you happen to know who started the CLOSOS reference in that discussion?
<beach>
Speaking of DEFSTRUCT, I think I will do exactly what is suggested. It will just be a layer on top of the general STANDARD-CLASS features, with a separate metaclass and an additional superclass. So STRUCTURE-CLASS will be at the same level as STANDARD-CLASS in the hierarchy, and STRUCTURE-OBJECT will be a direct subclass of STANDARD-OBJECT, or a parallel one in case it is not allowed to have it a subclass.
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<Bike>
i think that would be allowed by 4.2.2
<beach>
Yeah, I think so too.
<jcowan>
THat makes a lot of sense to me.
<Bike>
well, depending on ho w"that does not already specify either" etc is interpreted
<beach>
It is not that important. I can change it easily if that should be required.
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<matzy_>
does anyone else find cl-dbi to be weird when trying to POST data to a mysql table?
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<phoe>
hmmmm
<phoe>
I have a method on INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER that validates the keyword arguments and stuff
<phoe>
but I just came into a situation where I want REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE to also perform that validation
<beach>
Do it on SHARED-INITIALIZE instead.
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<phoe>
yes, I'm just thinking if I've been doing The Incorrect Thing™ for this whole time - using INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :BEFORE/:AFTER for validating stuff
<beach>
It happens.
<phoe>
since REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE will not perform that validation
<beach>
Indeed.
<beach>
phoe: Is the online Lisp meeting still on tomorrow?
<phoe>
like, time to rewrite all the code I've written so far
<phoe>
beach: yes
<beach>
What time?
<phoe>
13:00 CEST
<beach>
Perfect.
<beach>
What is CEST? UTC+2?
<beach>
I mean the `S' suggests "standard", but we are on daylight savings time.
<beach>
So logically, if it is UTC+2, it should be CEDT, but I don't much like those abbreviations, no doubt inspired from the US.
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<phoe>
ha! it means Central European Summer Time
<beach>
Ouch.
<phoe>
I had to double-check because I also thought it was "standard"
<flip214_>
Can I print a simple-base-string with a max number of characters, with "..." appended if it is cut short? FORMAT doesn't do that, sb-ext:*print-vector-length* isn't standard. Is there some other *print-...* special I can use?
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<phoe>
flip214_: AFAIK not
<phoe>
nothing in the standard
<phoe>
beach: hey, SHARED-INITIALIZE is a pleasure to use
<pve>
flip214_: unless you're doing a library, I guess you could define a print-object method that checks if *chop-strings* is non-nil
<beach>
phoe: I agree.
<beach>
pve: What would that method specialize to?
<pve>
beach: not sure.. simple-base-string?
<phoe>
pve: can't
<beach>
That would be non-conforming.
<pve>
then today I learned
<phoe>
you cannot define a method on a standard generic function whose specializers are all standard as well
<phoe>
since these are reserved to the Lisp system
<phoe>
so e.g. you cannot (defmethod print-object ((object string) stream) ...)
<pve>
no fun :(
<pve>
i mean, makes sense
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<beach>
The exact rule is, you can't define a method on a specified generic function that is applicable when given only instances of specified classes. And that rule is not restricted to Common Lisp. It is valid for (well written) libraries as well.
<phoe>
re previous discussion: now I need to figure out whether I want SHARED-INITIALIZE :BEFORE, SHARED-INITIALIZE :AFTER, or disqualified SHARED-INITIALIZE with CALL-NEXT-METHOD inside...
<phoe>
hm
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<beach>
phoe: You want a primary method or an :AROUND method if you need to modify the arguments in some situtations.
<beach>
situations
<phoe>
beach: in this case, I want just to signal an error if validation fails.
<beach>
Then :BEFORE or :AFTER are fine.
<phoe>
...oh wow! primary/around methods on SHARED-INITIALIZE is immune to that one issue that I've noticed with INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER constructors
<phoe>
namely that the CHECK-TYPE restart misbehaves in INITIALIZE-INSTANCE :AFTER
<phoe>
today I became a better Lisp programmer
<beach>
Congratulations!
<pve>
Where does it say you can't do naughty things with print-object? I can't seem to find it..
<phoe>
"19. Defining a method for a standardized generic function which is applicable when all of the arguments are direct instances of standardized classes."
<pve>
ah, thanks
<pve>
I was reading print-object like an idiot
<phoe>
not really like an idiot
<phoe>
the standard gets some time to get used to
<phoe>
and things inside it are really in weird places sometimes
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<beach>
phoe: Here is another thing that will make you a (slightly) better programmer. Standard FIND-METHOD takes either a class metaobject or a list (EQL object) in the list of specializers. But accepting a class name is an SBCL extension.
<beach>
phoe: You use this extension to remove a method on PRINT-OBJECT if the :REPORT option is absent.
<phoe>
beach: :REPORT, you mean for conditions?
<beach>
Yes.
<beach>
My current mission is to study your portable condition system.
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<matzy_>
is it possible to check the types of each individual memnber of a list? i'm having a hard time finding function that does that on the hyperspec
<beach>
Are they all of the same type?
<beach>
Or, if not, and if you can describe the types as a regular expression, you can use the RTE technique designed by Jim Newton and Didier Verna.
<phoe>
matzy_: you can, (every (rcurry #'typep 'foo) list)
<phoe>
or, if you want a type-system solution, what beach said
<matzy_>
its confusing, because i'm passing them as URL params in a POST body, but cl-dbi will only take them if I wrap each in double-quotes and even then smashes them into the same column with the column names included
<matzy_>
i'm admitting the first column which is an auto-incrementing id column from my INSERT, but I assume that OK
<flip214_>
phoe: pve: thanks!
<pve>
flip214_: I was wrong, don't do what I said
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<phoe>
CLOS really is amazing
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<phoe>
making instantiation, reinitialization, and two kinds of updates programmable
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<gaqwas>
hello
<gaqwas>
uhm... is this a typo in the HyperSpec?
<gaqwas>
"In an unless form, if the test-form yields *false*, the forms are evaluated[..] Otherwise, if the test-form yields *false* (sic?), the forms are not evaluated, "
<beach>
It seems I can only get to the thread starting with heisig.
<aeth>
You can click on the [-] to collapse that thread. It's a bit hard to see the left line by default (I actually modify the style locally with a browser plugin)
<aeth>
There are only two other comments outside of that thread
<beach>
OK, thanks. I don't think this stuff was made for me. I wasn't looking to collapse the thread. I was wondering what prompted heisig to talk about CLOSOS, but I see now way to get to the previous message in the thread.
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<beach>
Maybe there isn't one, and heisig decided to spontaneously write this.
<aeth>
oh sorry, I guess you haven't seen the website before. The thread is about Closos
<aeth>
These sorts of websites are structured so that there's a link or a text post at the top, and everything else is a threaded reply to it
<aeth>
so ska80 started the conversation on CLOSOS, not heisig
<beach>
So the first post was just a link to my pdf?
<beach>
OK.
<aeth>
yes
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<beach>
I get it now. Thanks for all your help.
<aeth>
You're welcome. And, yes, that website design was confusing to me, too, when I first saw it, probably 10 years ago.
<beach>
I can imagine. I don't have time to hang out in yet another place. Especially one with this kind of exchange. So I will probably always be confused.
<aeth>
It's a forum started by Paul Graham, so Lisp stuff sometimes trends on it, but not anywhere near as much as it used to.
<beach>
I think I must have heard that somewhere.
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<aeth>
It is the only known piece of public software written in Arc, the Lisp language that flopped. (Other than Arc implementations themselves, of course.)
<beach>
Interesting.
<aeth>
So I guess that dates the website to 2008.
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<phoe>
Hmmmm
<phoe>
if I want to use CHECK-TYPE properly inside SHARED-INITIALIZE, I assume that I must do that inside an :AROUND or primary method
<phoe>
and then CALL-NEXT-METHOD explicitly with all arguments, in case the CHECK-TYPE restart modifies the variables
<phoe>
seems verbose; I wonder how I can shrink it
<aeth>
phoe: You might be approaching the problem wrong. Personally, I type check at slot setting (to cover initialization and setters). Unfortunately, because this uses the MOP, I have to use ASSERT instead of CHECK-TYPE because the type isn't available at compile time. https://gitlab.com/zombie-raptor/zr-utils/-/blob/master/metaobject.lisp
<aeth>
There might be another, better place to intercept things, too.
<phoe>
oh right, typed slots
<phoe>
can I use that with typechecking lists? like, assert that every element of the list is of type FOO
<aeth>
Well, yes and no. You can't rely on :type because SBCL doesn't typecheck at default optimization levels, which means that 80-90% of your users won't actually have typechecks there if you use :type
<phoe>
aeth: I mean *custom* typed slots
<aeth>
You also can't call it :type and override it iirc
<aeth>
So I call it :checked-type
<aeth>
Maybe there's a better name
<phoe>
yes, that sounds okay
<aeth>
phoe: You can of course use a SATISFIES type, but I probably should just make it a generalized precondition/postcondition system since I'm using ASSERT anyway.
<aeth>
(Which probably means up to two asserts per slot.)
<aeth>
I should probably move the file I linked to into its own library because it's independent of my zr-utils and it's pretty much complete and usable, unlike the rest of it.
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<phoe>
tempting
<phoe>
I'll think of using it if/when you do so
<aeth>
The hardest part is probably naming it
<phoe>
"checked-slots"
<phoe>
or "typechecked-slots"
<phoe>
also, line 33 has a bug - it's ASSERT TYPEP, not CHECK-TYPE
<phoe>
and so the established restart is named CONTINUE instead of STORE-VALUE
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<aeth>
Well, it wouldn't just be type checked because I'd add a second slot for general assertions, mainly for sequence/etc. checking.
<phoe>
I'd actually be pedantic and manually expand a CHECK-TYPE in there to make it possible to pass the type dynamically at runtime, so the STORE-VALUE restart is preserved
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<phoe>
oh! welll then
<phoe>
"pedantic-slots"
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<aeth>
phoe: How could you use a CHECK-TYPE at all in there? CHECK-TYPE's type isn't quoted. MACROLET?
<aeth>
I don't think I've ever used a MACROLET because they're nearly impossible to debug when someone else uses them.
<aeth>
Although if I guess if I did use a CHECK-TYPE it would probably make the other custom argument fairly obvious: checked-assertion...
<phoe>
aeth: don't
<phoe>
I'd write my own CHECK-TYPE equivalent that evaluates the type argument
<aeth>
phoe: Those were the most common (error foo) patterns in my engine so I turned those into define-conditions a while back.
<aeth>
The idea of putting it in my utility library (and I might even move that into its own standalone library) is that that makes it easier for different libraries/programs to use the same conditions
<phoe>
aeth: you don't export accessors
<aeth>
Oh, hmm, I guess I don't. This is why I like exports at the top of the file. Makes it easier to spot that kind of thing.
<phoe>
a unit test suite would have caught this sort of thing - which is why I try to unit test every single thing I can
<aeth>
I didn't want to unit test my util library until I spun it off.
<aeth>
which was fairly recently
<phoe>
gotcha
<phoe>
I'd split longer report functions into their own named functions, but that's a matter of taste
<aeth>
I probably will build those out of helper functions/macros at some point, but I haven't written enough to make clear patterns
<phoe>
and the starting vowel kind of stuff literally begs to be a helper function unto its own
<phoe>
that nested IF also kind of wants to be rewritten as a COND
<aeth>
yeah, I'm not very happy with that lambda in general... it was pretty tricky to write and iirc it was more about getting it to work correctly with the (REPL, not unit) tests.
<phoe>
oh right
<aeth>
Quite a few different branches, but they're all useful because of how common that error is
<phoe>
another reason for unit tests, one can refactor and check if they still pass
<aeth>
Right, which is probably why I haven't refactored it yet
<aeth>
I could probably build required-input-error into another, third assertion in the checked-types metaclass
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<ym>
Hi. Should #+t (princ 'test) work? Doesn't work for me with sbcl 2.0.1.
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<Bike>
#+t means it checks if :t is in *features*, and it probably isn't.
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<Inline>
heh
<Bike>
you can use #+(and) if you want something facile
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<ym>
Oh. Got it. Thanks.
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<TMA>
ym: or #-(or) for one character shorter alternative
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<jcowan>
aeth: I never thought macrolet/let-syntax made very much sense. "In section 2 of this paper, the notation A ~ B means blablabla, but in all other sections it means bliblibli". Who organizes papers like that?
<Bike>
that seems like more generally a problem with shadowing
<Bike>
which is indeed kinda crap most of the time
<phoe>
you mean lexical shadowing?
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<Bike>
are there other kinds? like in a package i guess? yes, i mean lexical
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<Bike>
i use macrolet but not for shadowing
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<jcowan>
In Dijkstra's guarded-command language, if you refer to a variable in an inner block you must redeclare it there
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<phoe>
aaaa
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<phoe>
my SHARED-INITIALIZE method is buggy
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<phoe>
Should (REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE X) generally be a no-op? Is that the idea behind it?
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<phoe>
I mean, I explicitly provide no initargs there.
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<beach>
Sounds right.
<beach>
I mean, I don't think there is a requirement like that. If you stick an :AROUND method that supplies initargs, I don't think that is illegal.
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<phoe>
"The generic function reinitialize-instance can be used to change the values of local slots of an instance according to initargs."
<phoe>
I can kinda infer that if the user supplies no INITARGS then the user may expect nothing to change
<phoe>
but then again, nothing is really set in stone on that CLHS page
<phoe>
"The process of reinitialization changes the values of some slots (...)"
<phoe>
okay then, mutation can freely happen
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<phoe>
the initialization subsystem of CLOS is fascinating
<Bike>
what are you expecting to call reinitialize-instance with no kwargs anyway?
<phoe>
Bike: because I can - "This generic function can be called by users."
<phoe>
and mostly to verify that my custom methods don't break stuff
<phoe>
I ran into an issue where my buggy code cleared out values of slots after calling REINITIALIZE-INSTANCE with no initargs
<phoe>
and that definitely was not my intent
<Bike>
yeah that's definitely wrong at least.
<Bike>
but if you want reinitialize-instance to refresh its place in an external store or something that would probably be okay.
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<phoe>
I mean, yes, it *may* be correct in some contexts
<Bike>
since you're the user in this scenario, it can do whatever
<phoe>
yep
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<pimpom>
Can I "expand a list" an pass the contents as input to a function in CL? E.g. I have some function (defun some-fun (arg1 &rest args) ...) and want to pass "args" as several arguments to another function call within this function.
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<phoe>
What is the easiest way to define two packages that cross-reference each other via local nicknames?
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<Bike>
phoe: with sbcl's interface, call add-package-local-nickname for one, i guess. gets annoying if you also want to be able to reeevaluate defpackage forms without complaint, tho
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<phoe>
Bike: I got UIOP:DEFINE-PACKAGE for all my reevaluation needs
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