<kristianpaul>
"Andrew from #homecmos project had improved a lot the process for making homebew CMOS from a lithographic projection, at irc channel he brought last results from his lab, as he quouted "World's smallest nyan cat" checkout some pics:"
<kristianpaul>
azonenberg: is okay for you?
<azonenberg>
I havent gotten working COMS, perhaps say homebrew MEMS
<wolfspraul>
nice picture, although I am not clear what it shows or means :-)
<azonenberg>
wolfspraul: I'm testing my process for patterning metal layers
<wolfspraul>
no scale btw
<azonenberg>
Wasn't entirely successful but its getting closer
<azonenberg>
The lines are 20 microns
<azonenberg>
entire cat is 600 head to tail
<wolfspraul>
oh it's a cat!
<wolfspraul>
finally I got it :-)
<kristianpaul>
;-)
<wolfspraul>
kristianpaul: since the pic has no scale, if you write a news item please write the size in the text
<kristianpaul>
yes sure
<kristianpaul>
just waiting azonenberg aproval to save that to whe wiki
<azonenberg>
wolfspraul: not just any cat
<azonenberg>
Nyan Cat
<azonenberg>
wolfspraul: yeah, this was a quick shot with my point-and-shoot camera
<azonenberg>
the nice calibrated one is a pain to set up since it onyl works on windows so i have to drag the big laptop over which has windows VMs on it
<azonenberg>
the handheld camera i can just hold up to the eyepiece
<azonenberg>
The CAD screenshot was for a mask on my 5um process
<azonenberg>
i actually made it on the 20
<azonenberg>
so all dimensions are 4x what the screenshot shows
<azonenberg>
ah nvm, you got that in the caption
<azonenberg>
And, not that it matters too much, but my project isnt technically copyleft
<azonenberg>
BSD is gpl-compatible but doesnt require that you release modified versions under the same license
<kristianpaul>
(copyleft) yeah, well...just ignore the "branding" :p
<kristianpaul>
sure
<wolfspraul>
azonenberg: that would be the first time that someone who is more free than copyleft feels excluded by copyleft :-)
<azonenberg>
lol
<wolfspraul>
my mind hurts thinking about that
<wolfspraul>
no don't worry
<wolfspraul>
I am super cool about public domain, bsd, apache
<azonenberg>
Yeah, its just that i dont like copyleft because it forces you to use the same license
<wolfspraul>
I think this copyright stuff is a distraction
<azonenberg>
If i'm making a design open, i make it OPEN
<azonenberg>
as few restrictions as i feasibly can
<wolfspraul>
well yes, without wanting to start this now, but you know that the copyleft people believe that the one thing you should not be allowed to do is to remove freedoms from others
<wolfspraul>
and I have to say if I look around what companies are doing, I can clearly see that the ones that strategically prefer BSD/Apache over GPL all in fact have in mind to not give back too much :-)
<kristianpaul>
likes a lot public domain
<wolfspraul>
I have no idea how this plays out over decades, we'll see
<azonenberg>
wolfspraul: And what do you think the odds are that intel is going to steal anything from my processes? :P
<wolfspraul>
maybe GPL projects are in fact better able to preserve the collaborative and 'give back' culture and thus the project
<azonenberg>
I'm only like 30 years behind them...
<azonenberg>
maybe 40
<wolfspraul>
for example in a company, the business model is very important, but the company culture even more so
<wolfspraul>
anyway
<wolfspraul>
public domain is great!
<wolfspraul>
bsd/apache - great
<wolfspraul>
if copyleft excludes or is incompatible with those, I would stop using it
<wolfspraul>
but of course that's not the case and never will be
<azonenberg>
No, copyleft just assimilates them
<azonenberg>
once i use a GPL library in my code, my code is GPL too
<azonenberg>
and the virus spreads
<azonenberg>
But if I use a BSD licensed library in my code i can keep it under whatever license it was
<wolfspraul>
well like I said :-) GPL tries to protect the values (freedom) of the project first, then the technicalities
<azonenberg>
because the GPL is a weapon
<wolfspraul>
if you compare with companies, I could imagine that it will be more successful in the long run. Not to force anybody into it, but to create a healthy ecosystem.
<azonenberg>
It's used by RMS in his holy war to eliminate proprietary software
<azonenberg>
By comparison, I dont think proprietary software is *wrong*
<azonenberg>
I just think it will lose out to an equivalent free project if they compete on an even footing
<azonenberg>
just by market forces (price and customizability)
<wolfspraul>
not sure, but there are many details here, marketing power etc.
<wolfspraul>
I'm not sure about 'weapon', then you can call everything a weapon.
<azonenberg>
I'm pretty sure RMS has used the term himself
<wolfspraul>
GPL protects the collaborative culture above all.
<wolfspraul>
try this thought experiment, compare 2 companies
<wolfspraul>
1) good business model, bad company culture
<wolfspraul>
2) good business model, good company culture
<wolfspraul>
(let's leave out what 'good' or 'bad' means)
<wolfspraul>
the company culture will be more important imho
<wolfspraul>
can't be changed later
<wolfspraul>
so yeah, GPL forces to give back
<wolfspraul>
that's the idea
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
and you don't have to use it, of course
<wolfspraul>
Apple for example systematically eradicates any small trace of GPL left anywhere in their ecosystem. If GPL is a 'weapon', then that is surely the 'revenge', no?
<azonenberg>
Lol, thats apple for you
<wolfspraul>
no I think they do the right thing, they just value their own company culture over the GPL share-back culture
<azonenberg>
Protect the user from everything at all cost
<azonenberg>
Even freedom
<wolfspraul>
and very systematically :-)
<wolfspraul>
company culture is most important
<wolfspraul>
so the GPL is eradicated like a bug...
<wolfspraul>
who gives you more freedom? an Apple OS on your MacBook, or Debian on your notebook?
<wolfspraul>
maybe still the MacBook, to most people, because it's easier to use :-)
<wolfspraul>
so let's compare again in 10 years
<azonenberg>
Lol
<azonenberg>
I havent run any OSes but debian and ubuntu since 2008
<azonenberg>
Switching over to debian from ubuntu since its going downhill
<wolfspraul>
:-)
<wolfspraul>
I agree, though I never ran Ubuntu I think.
<azonenberg>
Though i still keep some winblows VMs around by necessity
<azonenberg>
my microscope camera doesnt have linux drivers yet
<azonenberg>
me and a friend are working on reversing the USB protocol
<azonenberg>
dont have anything working yet
<wolfspraul>
but the Debian slowness is irritating, so sometimes I think about Fedora...
<azonenberg>
Well, i dont like reinstalling servers every few months lol
<azonenberg>
I like them to be rock solid
<azonenberg>
And given how much i virtualize, my laptop is practicalyl a server too
<azonenberg>
90% of my apps run in VMs
<azonenberg>
So i can use a more bleeding-edge distro on the VMs
<azonenberg>
But i want the host to be stable
<wolfspraul>
which VM software do you use?
<azonenberg>
VirtualBox when possible but i use vmware on one system out of necessity
<azonenberg>
virtualbox's USB support is subpar and i use that system for a lot of usb stuff
<azonenberg>
I simply cannot tolerate my device having packets dropped halfway through a firmware update
<azonenberg>
virtualbox bricked a board for me once
<azonenberg>
though i was able to recover with some soldering and an in-circuit reflash
<wolfspraul>
ouch
<wolfspraul>
I've used everything over the years. VMware in the 90's, then Parallels I think (when it came out as a cheaper alternative), then VirtualBox, now KVM
<azonenberg>
The worst part is that said board was my programming adapter lol
<wolfspraul>
maybe some others in between, forgot :-)
<azonenberg>
my PIC programmer had gotten bricked and the chip on it with bad firmware was a PIC
<azonenberg>
So i had a bit of a chicken-and-egg problem until i found another programmer
<azonenberg>
soldered it onto the test port and reflashed the MCU in circuit
<bart416>
Heh
<bart416>
My first programmer was a +5V -5V power supply, a bunch of resistors, diodes and transistors
<bart416>
For an 8051
<bart416>
Aaaargh, I want to try something but I don't have the equipment for it :(
<azonenberg_work>
What in particular?
<bart416>
I think I figured out a way to blast a single layer of atoms of a sample using a laser
<azonenberg_work>
Is this like reverse epitaxy or something?
<bart416>
Somewhat
<bart416>
You deposit a single layer of a crystal on the target
<bart416>
The crystal binds to the uper layer
<bart416>
Cause you know what the crystal is you can calculate how much energy is required to break it off per surface area
<bart416>
To keep the sample clean you need to use an electric field to draw the ionised gas away
<bart416>
Now I wouldn't use a real laser anyway
<bart416>
Too hard to control
<azonenberg_work>
What would you use?
<bart416>
A fast scanning electron beam
<azonenberg_work>
e-beam?
<azonenberg_work>
Interesting
<bart416>
You could use a high powered SEM for it essentially
<azonenberg_work>
So you're almost sputtering
<bart416>
Then you can go over it with a STM or whatever you wish to use and then rip off the next layer
<bart416>
and repeat
<bart416>
yes, sputtering
<bart416>
But destructive :P
<azonenberg_work>
Perhaps a FIB would be better for that
<azonenberg_work>
Thats basically how FIBs cut
<azonenberg_work>
But i dont think they can do atomically smooth cuts
<azonenberg_work>
usually resolution is a few nm
<bart416>
That's why you deposit the layer of crystal first
<bart416>
you have the crystal bind with the layer of atoms under it
<bart416>
So you can drag it along with the crystal
<bart416>
That's the core of the idea
<bart416>
If you just throw your laser, electron or ion beam at it you won't get much out of it
<bart416>
But I don't even have access to a SEM :(
<bart416>
also azonenberg how flat is your average wafer these days?
<azonenberg_work>
back
<azonenberg_work>
And the ones i get are polished to a 5A surface roughness
<azonenberg_work>
Planarity across the entire wafer is in the tens of microns i think?
<azonenberg_work>
Maybe even better
<azonenberg_work>
Check specs on mtixtl.com
<bart416>
For my atomic circuit idea I need as flat as possible surface possibly coated in gold