<lekernel> bart416, i've read that sputtering outside of a vacuum gives bad result... the deposition is not uniform, is brittle, oxidizes, etc.
<bart416> lekernel, yeah but it's possible
<lekernel> probably not for microelectronics :)
<bart416> SolidRaven> The thing is, you could theoretically sputter coat at atmospheric pressure
<lekernel> even for depositing aluminum on potato chips bags they use vacuum
<bart416> once again points at theoretically :P
<bart416> You'd just need a strong electric field to force the ions in the right direction
<Laurenceb> ive spluttered paper in air
<Laurenceb> with graphite, using a large cap
<Laurenceb> and 1KV  XD
<Laurenceb> propelling pencil lead
<Laurenceb> are there processes for two component aluminium deposition?
<Laurenceb> anyone here?
<azonenberg> Just got up but heading to work shortly
<Laurenceb> heh
<Laurenceb> are there processes for two component aluminium deposition?
<Laurenceb> im sure ive seen two component alu deposition using sprays
<Laurenceb> btw, have you seen jeri ellsworths work with diy mosfets?
<azonenberg> Laurenceb: Yes, that was actually the inspiration for this work
<azonenberg> I wanted to do a process shrink on her basic design
<Laurenceb> iirc i saw a video on low volume cd production
<Laurenceb> they had a two component alu deposition spray thing
<azonenberg> Hmm
<Laurenceb> wish my chemistry was better :(
<azonenberg> very interesting but i'm not familiar with the process
<azonenberg> It'd have to be something like sol-gel
<Laurenceb> i remember we did chrome deposition in liquid state in 6th form
<azonenberg> But the problem is that Al oxidizes sooooo easily
<azonenberg> You'd almost certainly have to do it under inert gas
<azonenberg> Though possibly not low pressure
<Laurenceb> im trying to work out if you could do a liquid state process, like jeris but without the lame comductive epoxy
<azonenberg> Yeah
<Laurenceb> *con
<azonenberg> I'm going to be playing with an evaporator on campus shortly
<azonenberg> Prepping samples tonight/tmrw and running the experiment thursday
<Laurenceb> nice, its not very complex but vacuum complicates things
<azonenberg> Yeah
<Laurenceb> i like jeris oven+nitrogen, very basic
<Laurenceb> i also like the idea of liquid microjets, but i know its a little mad
<azonenberg> I'd probably use argon since i'd use it for sputtering
<azonenberg> Even if it costs a bit more, cheaper than two tanks
<azonenberg> But in any case i'll be playing with lift-off and normal etching on ~100nm Cu films
<azonenberg> If it's even remotely successful i plan to build one of my own over the coming months
<Laurenceb> interesting
<Laurenceb> theres got to be a use for that
<azonenberg> Deposition of particles for nanostructures? Hmm
<azonenberg> The thing is, you're depositing single particles
<azonenberg> you'd have a giant polycrystal with no cohesion between grains
<Laurenceb> yeah but if you used it for dopants
<azonenberg> You'd need to heat it to near the melting point to densify the film (still polycrystalline but at least they stick together)
<Laurenceb> and alu maybe
<azonenberg> Doping is trivial
<azonenberg> Spin coat doped SiO2 and pattern with HF
<azonenberg> Then bake and let it diffuse
<Laurenceb> i dont understand the spin coating agent
<Laurenceb> its dissolved in alcohol?
<azonenberg> I dont know the exact chemistry for spin coating SiO2 but its a silicate compound of some sort
<Laurenceb> i see
<azonenberg> that upon drying and gently heating (200C ish) decomposes to SiO2
<Laurenceb> so how is it converted to SiO2?
<Laurenceb> ah i see
<azonenberg> So basically you'd pattern the doped film with photoresist and HF
<bart416> air
<azonenberg> Then bake to drive it in
<Laurenceb> yeah
<azonenberg> You could also backfill the entire wafer with SiO2 to prevent further oxidation
<azonenberg> and do dopant drive-in in the air
<Laurenceb> so you could print the dopant
<azonenberg> Theoretically, yes
<Laurenceb> and you can print HF
<azonenberg> But in that case it'd be just dopant and not oxide too
<azonenberg> You dont need to
<azonenberg> Coat the entire wafer
<azonenberg> Just print the masking layer
<Laurenceb> oh course
<azonenberg> The only reason you'd print is if its easier than the alternate method
<Laurenceb> hmm i need to understand latlor cones
<azonenberg> And for somethign like a wet etch, it isnt
<Laurenceb> *taylor
<azonenberg> In any case i'll be running some experiments tonight involving diluting photoresist and doing tantalum oxide liftoff using thinner layers
<azonenberg> But for now, off to work for me
<Laurenceb> cya
<Laurenceb_> azonenberg: i was looking at microjets
<Laurenceb_> looks very hard
<azonenberg_work> Agreed
<azonenberg_work> They're interesting but i have no plans to pursue them
<Laurenceb_> there are a few research groups working on the same idea
<Laurenceb_> so its not totally mad, but getting consistent drops that are small enough is very hard
<azonenberg_work> Yeah
<Laurenceb_> arg stupid google
<azonenberg_work> lol where's the actual paper?
<Laurenceb_> i was getting down to 350nm or less with a nebuliser
<Laurenceb_> - page 11
<azonenberg_work> This is you?
<Laurenceb_> yes
<Laurenceb_> i was using NaCl in water and an ultrasonic nebuliser
<azonenberg_work> Still reading
<azonenberg_work> RPI's electronics club did a high altitude balloon launch two summers ago but i wasnt involved
<azonenberg_work> And it was a proof-of-concept that just took photos and didnt carry any other sensors
<kristianpaul> (cheap autonomous sonde) highaltitude balloons have interestinhg aplications
<azonenberg_work> Yep
<azonenberg_work> Laurenceb_: It's probably bad that i understand a lot of your math dealing with the aerodynamics of the particles
<azonenberg_work> Despite having a degree in comp sci :P
<Laurenceb_> im sure theres errors in there... but i got a first for it so :P
<azonenberg_work> lol
<azonenberg_work> Your mean free path looks a little long, i recall 58nm, but i think the delta is due to STP vs room temperature
<azonenberg_work> And very interesting on the thermal precipitator
<azonenberg_work> How often is that used?
<Laurenceb_> its quite common aiui
<azonenberg_work> Hmm... the electrostatic seems interesting too
<Laurenceb_> i was origionally thinking the particle size range was interesting, but maybe electrostatic coating could have uses
<azonenberg_work> And lol @ impactor
<bart416> 'nite
<azonenberg_work> Probably not the most effective method to use at low velocity...
<azonenberg_work> What kind of SEM were you using? I dont recognize the pin design
<azonenberg_work> Looks too short for a Jeol and too tall for a Zeiss
<Laurenceb_> it was modified on a lathe
<Laurenceb_> to reduce the diameter so it would fit in the precipitator
<azonenberg> I see
<azonenberg> Laurenceb_: So are you at Oxford?
<Laurenceb_> no
<Laurenceb_> i got a job in the real world after graduating
<azonenberg> Graduated already? Ah
<Laurenceb_> 2008 - i had a bit of a 'crisis' after a while
<azonenberg> I see - with me it was "in for a penny in for a pound"
<Laurenceb_> decided to do a phd
<azonenberg> Same here
<azonenberg> As of now i plan to go through with it
<azonenberg> You bailed and got a real job instead?
<Laurenceb_> yes, but didnt enjoy it
<Laurenceb_> i worked for ~1year at surrey satellite technology on galileo
<azonenberg> Interesting
<azonenberg> I've been a de facto grad student for a while lol
<azonenberg> My grades started slipping last year as an undergrad because i was so into my research i spent less time on class work
<Laurenceb_> i didnt like work in a largish company as there was no room for creativity
<Laurenceb_> im now working at nottingham university doing a PhD on biomedical sensing
<Laurenceb_> at sstl i was stuck in a team working on vhdl for decoder ics
<azonenberg> Interesting
<azonenberg> prefers verilog
<azonenberg> I'm actually ordering a whole load of Xilinx CPLDs (5 to 10 units each of four types, ranging from 36 to 144 macrocells) to fool around on
<azonenberg> FPGAs will come later, they pretty much need massively multilayer boards
<azonenberg> due to the multiple power rails etc
<Laurenceb_> yeah
<azonenberg> I've done some FPGA designs but only run them on simulations
<Laurenceb_> anyway i need some sleep, 11.15pm here
<azonenberg> CPLDs look cheaper to actually USE
<Laurenceb_> cya
<azonenberg> Its only 18:15 here, and ttyl