devyn changed the topic of #elliottcable to: 22:53:14 <+whitequark> also there was a fragment about Swiss embassy being located on top of a 1000-ft pole, inside which there was a gigantic arms exhibit
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<joelteon> guys
<joelteon> guys
<joelteon> is NOPASSWD sudo for upstart the correct way to do deployment
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<joelteon> no but SERIOUSLY
<joelteon> is NOPASSWD sudo for upstart the correct way to do deployment
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> hi all
<cuttle_> hi ELLIOTTCABLE
<ELLIOTTCABLE> 'sup in heah
<cuttle_> finally got my hearing back in my right ear
<cuttle_> it was super congested or something so i was half deaf for a couple days
<ELLIOTTCABLE> how'd you lodr iy?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> oh
<ELLIOTTCABLE> assumed something to do with drugs :P
<cuttle_> hahahahaha
<cuttle_> my drug use is very tame
<cuttle_> weed/alcohol on the weekends sometimes, and the occasional lsd which is literally the least dangerous drug on earth
cuttle_ is now known as cuttle
<ELLIOTTCABLE> acid rots your brain
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ;)
<cuttle> lolol
<purr> lolol
<cuttle> anyway help me design hands syntax
<ELLIOTTCABLE> syntax is boring
<cuttle> yeah but i can't decide on it :p
<cuttle> just decide on it for me
<cuttle> leaning towards just like smalltalk/objc keywords
<cuttle> with infix operators and shit mixed in
<ELLIOTTCABLE> copy C
<ELLIOTTCABLE> *always* a safe option, and never a bad one
<cuttle> well it's all OO
<cuttle> multimethod OO
<cuttle> haha I always do this, ask advice because I'm unsure but leaning, and then choose the opposite of the advice
<cuttle> but yeah I've settled on smalltalk/atomo/objc syntax
<cuttle> ok now to code
* ELLIOTTCABLE laughs
<ELLIOTTCABLE> okay cool
<ELLIOTTCABLE> dunno atomo or smalltalk, but I don't hate objC
<cuttle> it basically will look like objc w/o the []
<ELLIOTTCABLE> man you're making me want to write lang shit
<ELLIOTTCABLE> or soooooomething
<cuttle> dude ye
<ELLIOTTCABLE> miss code )'=
<cuttle> yeah I haven't coded in forever
<cuttle> taking CS classes though so that's a bit of it
<cuttle> not really satisfying though yknow
<ELLIOTTCABLE> ugh right ew
<cuttle> anyway I don't have class till 2pm tomorrow, and I got super spent on trying to make music, so I plan on some marathon coding
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hah
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I need some paws'ing, I suppose
<cuttle> want to talk about hands
<cuttle> i need to concretify its semantics
<cuttle> it's well on the way there but not quite
* ELLIOTTCABLE nods
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I'm listening.
<cuttle> ok cool
<cuttle> so a program is a collection of definitions
<cuttle> a definition can be like, a constant, or a method definition, or w/e
<cuttle> a method definition might look like
<cuttle> (n: Number) inc = n + 1
<ELLIOTTCABLE> typed?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> conceptual breakdown as definitions never seemed attractive to me outside of lazy languages
<ELLIOTTCABLE> and I find lazy languages unattractive, so that covers the other half :P
<ELLIOTTCABLE> go on
<cuttle> yeah i guess it shouldn't really be definitions
<cuttle> because this isn't lazy
<cuttle> so yeah kinda scratch that
<cuttle> except that line is good
<cuttle> yeah it's typed so that the multimethods work
<ELLIOTTCABLE> explain your mms
<cuttle> acttuallllly could be dynamic and prototypal multimethods
<cuttle> god idek
<ELLIOTTCABLE> lololololol
<purr> lololololol
<cuttle> yeah it's in flux lol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “but not quite”
* ELLIOTTCABLE pats gently
<ELLIOTTCABLE> clearly, been there. so, let's solve that. lots of talking.
<cuttle> ok so assume it's all dynamic and prototypal
<cuttle> so a program is a list of expressions
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so, prototypal or typed, ignoring that, tell me more about what you want out of multimethods
<cuttle> so, i don't want any methods to be "inside" or "on" objects
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yes PLEASE
<cuttle> they're polymorphic on all their arguments, not just one
<ELLIOTTCABLE> good boy let's break the pattern
<cuttle> so like you can define Number#sin or w/e
* ELLIOTTCABLE nods
<cuttle> and it's not like inside Number, it's just a normal unary function
<ELLIOTTCABLE> or (Number,Number)#addition
<ELLIOTTCABLE> or (Number,String)#repeat
<cuttle> yeah but it'd probably look like 3 add: 3
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yeah just
<ELLIOTTCABLE> not as a syntax for code,
<cuttle> but yeah w bastarddized ruby method stuff
<cuttle> yeahl ol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> just a “talking about it syntax”
<ELLIOTTCABLE> like “Number#to_string” in Ruby isn't real syntax for anything ever
<cuttle> yeah :p
<ELLIOTTCABLE> k why does this matter:
<cuttle> so, private/public stuff would be defined at module boundaries, not class boundaries
<ELLIOTTCABLE> “so a program is a list of expressions”
<cuttle> just starting from the beginning :p
<ELLIOTTCABLE> whenever I see a specific like that, amongst lots of inspecifics, I feel like you have a particular reason or a particular desire
<ELLIOTTCABLE> module boundaries?
<ELLIOTTCABLE> forgive me, been a while since I wrote any OO code … and even then, it was Ruby, which is weird. whatcha mean?
<cuttle> like, you don't have private or public methods or members
<cuttle> you have accessors and other methods that are public/private to a particular file/module
<ELLIOTTCABLE> mkay
<ELLIOTTCABLE> so private/public to the file, basically
<cuttle> uniformity of access and all that
<ELLIOTTCABLE> more C-ish than anything
<ELLIOTTCABLE> gotcha
<cuttle> and haskelly too but yeah
<ELLIOTTCABLE> makes sense when multimethoding
<cuttle> so yeah
<ELLIOTTCABLE> omg wtf
<ELLIOTTCABLE> every single time. cybermen, daleks, or “it was an alien the entire time!!!!”
<cuttle> lolol
<purr> lolol
<ELLIOTTCABLE> Doctor Who, you fail to surprise anymore )'=
<cuttle> so here's a cool, stolen from atomo tutorial:
<cuttle> Rock = Object clone
<cuttle> Paper = Object clone
<cuttle> Scissors = Object clone
<cuttle> Rock beats?: Scissors = TRue
<cuttle> Scissors beats?: Paper = True
<cuttle> Paper beats?: Rock = True
<cuttle> _ beats?: _ = False
<ELLIOTTCABLE> yeah, familiar with that example
<cuttle> :p
<ELLIOTTCABLE> multimethods are boring, unless you're doing something particularly cool with them
<ELLIOTTCABLE> especially when given syntax ddis
<cuttle> yeah so going on to the cool hands things
<cuttle> so every expression is basically a generator
<ELLIOTTCABLE> I've got this weird mindset that's probably wrong, but that I have trouble escaping … that we've exhausted all possible elements of syntax, on minor variations of extant concepts.
<cuttle> so you can have like a-list each
<cuttle> and you can have
<cuttle> collect
<ELLIOTTCABLE> or, to put it another way … semantics and syntax both have possible problem-spaces; and we've completely explored the syntax problem-space before ever leaving the most rutty of rut-ruts.
<cuttle> which one-by-one puts return values into a list
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hmmmmmmmmmmm
<ELLIOTTCABLE> how is *every* expression guaranteed to generate?
<cuttle> well, if it returns once it's just a generator that only generates one thing
<ELLIOTTCABLE> seems to only be like lisp's multiple-returns-to-site thing
<ELLIOTTCABLE> how's it integrate with things that only “take” one argument, instead of being, say, `collect`?
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<ELLIOTTCABLE> lisp basically says “Don't do that.” which is the most exhaustingly stupid fail.
<cuttle> yeah no it will do what paws does, turn those things inside out and return to them multiple times
<cuttle> unless they're Aware™ like collect
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hmmmmm interesting!
<ELLIOTTCABLE> better solution than a slap on the wrist, at least
<ELLIOTTCABLE> is that a binary thing? either handle multiples, or ignore them and get multiplexed?
<cuttle> pretty much
<cuttle> i mean you can do what you want, handling multiples is basically just a mutable-state thing
<cuttle> you could write collect
<ELLIOTTCABLE> mutable-state thing?
<cuttle> like
<cuttle> make a list in a local variable
<cuttle> add a thing to it whenever you get called
* ELLIOTTCABLE nods
<ELLIOTTCABLE> help me remember something, if you can switch tracks that fast
<ELLIOTTCABLE> -issues
<ELLIOTTCABLE> derpderpderp
<ELLIOTTCABLE> the indescriminate holes crap
<ELLIOTTCABLE> your old, discrete and identified holes commentary might be coming back to roost
<cuttle> yeah, I'm going to have normal old lambdas in hands
<cuttle> with named arguments
<cuttle> but i mean in hands then there won't really be executions per se, just normal old methods
<cuttle> and blocks
* ELLIOTTCABLE nods
<ELLIOTTCABLE> we talked about that a bit
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hands is basically a lot of our shared-desires for higher level Paws, as a end-user language, without the modular/tear-down foundation
<cuttle> yeah
<cuttle> and it's basically as easy to write
<cuttle> and funner to use
<cuttle> so i want to see where it goes
<cuttle> anyway i also hope to have like a good error handling/information bundling system
<cuttle> for network distribution and insanities
<ELLIOTTCABLE> information bundling?
<cuttle> like, implicit tcp packet wrapping
<cuttle> with abilities to hook into it
<ELLIOTTCABLE> idk tcp
<whitequark> tcp stream?
<whitequark> ELLIOTTCABLE: btw, ocaml uses the recv#method syntax
<ELLIOTTCABLE> is that its actual syntax? damn, that explains a lot
<ELLIOTTCABLE> when suddenly alistair and peter
<ELLIOTTCABLE> hallo friends
<ELLIOTTCABLE> cuttle's making some hands
<whitequark> yes, actual one
<prophile> hi
<purr> prophile: hi!
<whitequark> hi, yes
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<cuttle> ELLIOTTCABLE: gotta figure out pattern syntax
<cuttle> methods are basically defined via pattern matching
<cuttle> so you need a way to like, specify the parents/ancestors that a method applies to, while still binding a name so you can access members
<cuttle> metric <3333
<cuttle> ok i think i'm dialing down the pattern matching from atomo
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<whitequark> how do I politely say "I rewrote a shitload of fucked up code" ?
<cuttle> whitequark: "heavy refactoring"?
<cuttle> gnight everyone it's almost 6am
<cuttle> :p
<whitequark> right
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* whitequark has just finished "to the moon"
<whitequark> it's... truly horrible. it made me feel physically sick. last thing to do that was the ending of stephen king's the dark tower.
<whitequark> it started bad, then it went worse. much worse. then they tried to fix it, but it was much, much more painful to watch. the fix worked, but in the end everyone is just dead anyway.
* whitequark shudders
<whitequark> why do people make games like that. why do people write books like that. why do they make it all cutesy and pixelly and disguised as something innocent. this is going to haunt me for years.
<whitequark> why
<whitequark> i've been on /r/wtf. i've seen shootings, beheadings, crushing, infection, and likely most of the other horrible fates you could imagine.
<whitequark> none of that succeeded in what this little game did. i truly wish to have a rewind button and unplay this.
<whitequark> i just want it to stop!
<joelteon> what happened whitequark
<joelteon> explain it to me
<joelteon> i heard it was a really good game
<whitequark> it's really good, in a way
<whitequark> i have a lot of respect, and also a lot of fear for the mental health, for the man who made it
<whitequark> you should probably play it
<joelteon> i tried but it was insanely boring
<joelteon> can you explain it
<whitequark> no
<joelteon> ok
<whitequark> I don't think it's possible to explain that
<yorick> oh god that one
<whitequark> what yorick, did you have some good memories associated with it also?
<yorick> whitequark: no I have memories with that other game where you accidentally wipe out humanity
<whitequark> which one?
<yorick> there's a good route but you can only play once
<yorick> I forgot
<yorickpeterse> whitequark: that's because /r/wtf is on Reddit
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<devyn> moo moo
<devyn> yorickpeterse: /r/wtf is only ever at all bad when people decide to self post “hey guys, let's take /r/wtf back to its roots” and *poof* suddenly, terrorism, sadism and gore
<whitequark> that's what it is supposed to be, not giraffes on underwear or something
<whitequark> "oh my gawd this sticker says 0% discount whaddafuwk"
<whitequark> meh.
<devyn> whitequark: well, I'm not subscribed to /r/wtf anymore and haven't been for a while, but I remember it saying “anything that makes you say WTF” which is pretty vague
<whitequark> WTF can be interpreted as "shock content" and "things that surprise you"
<whitequark> and the latter has other subreddits for it, where shock content is definitely not appropriate
<whitequark> I'm lurking in /r/wtf because I want to forget that PHP code I saw in the morning, not because I want to look at cat pictures
<devyn> haha
<whitequark> except if the cat is evenly distributed over a ten meter stretch of a road
<whitequark> then I do
<devyn> there's a reason I try not to work on PHP stuff (mainly WordPress [ew]) at work anymore
<whitequark> *splort*