<wingrime>
look-like it works but just want wait make finishes
<wingrime>
i wait when mail ships me Cyclone III based prototyping board
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<Turl>
wingrime: let me know if it works and I'll mail patch to ML
<wingrime>
before you send could you fix warning: /media/archive3/a10-dev/linux-sunxi/drivers/gpu/mali/mali/Kbuild:59: "CONFIG_TRACEPOINTS required for USING_PROFILING"
<lkcl>
ZaEarl: that design is amazing - it's certainly making the rounds. it started out as the GPL-violating CT-PC89e, originally from a China Telecom sponsored design in 9in form-factor. it's just getting bigger and bigger :)
<ZaEarl>
it's an excellent machine for the price
<lkcl>
ZaEarl: do you have a link to "Yones"? i need to speak with them and ask if they want to convert it to EOMA-68. i need to keep the pressure up and constantly and relentlessly find products
<mnemoc>
charbax has a card of the sales person on his post
<lkcl>
i tell you - it's just really frustrating sometimes to see all these products, *knowing* that they've spent yet *another* $50k on developing the casework
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<lkcl>
ZaEarl: yep, i know. it's one thing after another. bear in ming that the CB had a dedicated team *in china*.
<lkcl>
first we had to find a company that was willing to do the PCB design for zero cost. we went through *five* teams before finding one.
<mnemoc>
lkcl: what about talking with that team?
<lkcl>
mnemoc: i already have. tom, like the olimex guys, does not want to be involved.
<mnemoc>
:(
<lkcl>
then, there is the fact that we need casework as well. the CB was very very simple to design.
<lkcl>
so from 5,000 miles away (or however far it is) on an 8 hour timezone difference we've *finally* found a company willing to adapt a pre-existing PCMCIA casework design.
<ZaEarl>
I have a new contact that has been good to work with so far. I'll see if I can get them on board. I like the eoma68 idea.
<lkcl>
i send message after message making sure that everything's taken care of, day in, day out
<lkcl>
ZaEarl: that would be fantastic. i really need help with this stuff.
<mnemoc>
any plan to get a visa for .cn?
<mnemoc>
doing that remote clearly doesn't work
<ZaEarl>
cn visa isn't hard to get
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<lkcl>
mnemoc: it does... it just takes a while. yes i thought about it but i would need to bring my family as well, and marie does not want to go to china.
<mnemoc>
good point
<lkcl>
my associates have had a couple of visits to china already, to speak with factories etc.
<lkcl>
and to sign contracts.
<lkcl>
everything's in place.
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<lkcl>
remember we're not doing "maybe a 10k run of units and maybe be happy if we sold 50k"
<lkcl>
the plan - the roadmap - spans a *decade* and is of the order of millions of units a month
<lkcl>
lots of steps to take to get there.
<ZaEarl>
you seem to be understaffed and underfunded for such a project :)
<lkcl>
ZaEarl: *lol*
<mnemoc>
i sorry to tell, but I don't buy that argument anymore since you still need to beg for companies to do the design for free :( if the future is that big, and multi-million associates are involved, shit would have been finished a year ago
<lkcl>
ZaEarl: that's the challenge. but it means "no overheads"
<lkcl>
mnemoc: it doesn't work that way.
<lkcl>
mnemoc: think about it. these are huge companies - they expect to receive the products presented to them at *your* cost, not theirs.
<lkcl>
if you present them with a working prototype, *then* they will take it to mass-production.
<lkcl>
but they will *NOT* pay you a single penny towards the development of that prototype
<mnemoc>
but you are also telling they are the ones going to the factories and signing the contracts
<lkcl>
so our challenge is to get the prototypes done. connect the dots
<lkcl>
yes. we have contracts which state that *IF* we get them the prototypes, they will mass-produce them and pay us a percentage
<mnemoc>
narf :(
<lkcl>
we asked already for them to pay the R&D costs - they turned it down.
<lkcl>
normally those kinds of things are paid for by Govt. Grants (at their level)
<lkcl>
so... we work with that.
<lkcl>
*sigh*
<lkcl>
so, i need to find companies that are willing to do the R&D
<lkcl>
*or*
<lkcl>
i need to set up a crowd-funded project, where people are happy that, well, maybe the plastic is cut-out and patched over but otherwise it looks ok
<lkcl>
so there's a chain of events that need to take place
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<lkcl>
on which free software developers are an absolute critical part of that chain!
<lkcl>
i really *am* giving you guys the opportunity, as i promised on the front page of rhombus-tech, to be involved in free software projects that get into mass-production
<lkcl>
it's kinda scarey ha ha
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<L84Supper>
any ideas why you have had so many problems with getting any hardware design support? or people to buy into your company?
<lkcl>
L84Supper: answer to the first question is that it's hard to explain across an english language barrier exactly what the benefits of EOMA-68 are, esp. to companies who have, in many cases, *already* just forked out on an R&D budget to create a product.
<lkcl>
we actually need to catch a company *before* they spend the R&D budget, and the chances of any Chinese company announcing publicly on the internet "we're going to design a new product now!" are precisely zero :)
<lkcl>
the answer to the second question is that because it's such a huge change, it takes a while to explain (even in english)
<L84Supper>
have you considered a new "front man" or maybe that it's not a worthy investment?
<lkcl>
L84Supper: love to have a new "front man". they'll need to be prepared to work on a commission-only basis, like all of us are.
<lkcl>
which is the sort of thing that is attractive to people who've read books like "millionaire mind" and so on.
<lkcl>
or people who *want* to be like the people in those books :)
<L84Supper>
maybe people are more interested in making a profit
<lkcl>
L84Supper: so, yeah, ultimately, the answer as to why the delays is because of my own limitations in communication.
<lkcl>
L84Supper: profit now? or bigger profit later? we can *always* profit - it's just a matter of when.
<lkcl>
the mind-set of "profit now, gimme a job" is something we're staying clear of. we're looking for people willing to do deals
<lkcl>
that's hard!
<lkcl>
ok, example: the AM3892 EOMA-68 CPU Card, the company i'm talking to i have done a deal with them, where they will sell it directly on their *own* web site as a beagle-board-like device
<L84Supper>
maybe people just see too many immediate risks, or they outweigh the profits that lie too far out
<ZaEarl>
I'm going to sleep now. I'll put my laptop under my pillow so I can absorb the rest of this discussion...
<lkcl>
another one i have promised to help them to find customers ...
<lkcl>
ZaEarl: ha ha
<lkcl>
stay clear of EM radiation while you're sleeping!
<lkcl>
:)
<lkcl>
i promised to help them with the specs and find some customers for the PC they're doing, and in return they *offered* to do an EOMA-68 CPU Card conversion for free
<lkcl>
there's another CPU where i'm explaining to them the benefits of having that (new) CPU in EOMA-68 form-factor because it will fit directly into products that are in the hands of free software developers
<lkcl>
and they would get those developers going to conferences, and showing it to people, and so on - all free advertising for them.
<lkcl>
it's one deal after another, connecting one thing to another
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<lkcl>
building up a picture that eventually reaches critical mass through sheer bloody-minded persistance and, importantly, self-consistency
<lkcl>
(self-consistency because it's no damn good having the whole thing be dependent on something that's completely wrong!)
<lkcl>
does that make any sense?
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<mnemoc>
lkcl: maybe the problem is to center in large scale mass production and greed centric companies in the first place. instead of trying to make something viable on the ~1k pieces range and then showing it to the greedy ones
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<lkcl>
mnemoc: hmmm.... well... i've been slowly learning (thanks to some "coaching" i've been receiving) that regardless of whom we (i) speak to, it's necessary to actually listen and find out what *they* want
<lkcl>
then give it to them, in terms of what *you* want :)
<lkcl>
like that guy who has access to the Exynos5, he started telling me about his plans to do a $99 PC
<lkcl>
i was *just* about to say something along the lines of "hmmm, that's not what i want" when i went... ARGH, NO! and i said "of course i'll help you to design and promote it"
<lkcl>
:)
<lkcl>
and guess what he said next? the magic words came up "EOMA-68 card with Exynos5" and "free engineering costs in return for a royalty" came up - i didn't even have to mention that myself ha ha
<lkcl>
epiphany for me, that was
<mnemoc>
:)
<lkcl>
i just have to get better at this kind of deal-making, that's all
<lkcl>
so many promises to keep. esp. to you guys.
* lkcl
deep breath
<mnemoc>
*g*
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<penguin42>
lkcl: How much power dissipation can the larger type 3 shells do?
<penguin42>
lkcl: Enough to be able to run the exynos at higher rates?
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<L84Supper>
penguin42: power dissipation? Is the shell going to be stand alone in free air? What orientation? It depends on what the shell is doing.
<penguin42>
L84Supper: Hmm sure; but how do you start working out the dissipation for a standard module?
<L84Supper>
it's possible to have a 100 W cpu in a type2 shell if you design the rest of the system to manage the heat
<penguin42>
L84Supper: Is there anything in EOMA though that states anything about the cooling of the module? I don't think I spotted anything at all?
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<L84Supper>
penguin42: you have define the operating conditions, power consumed by the devices on the board inside the shell, operating temperature range of the ambient air temp it will operate in, thermal resistance of the packing etc etc
<penguin42>
L84Supper: Right, but somewhere presumably there is something saying that if you're going to put an EOMA module in your product you have to be able to cool it in this way
<L84Supper>
as far as I know it's not in the EOMA spec
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<L84Supper>
thermal management is not well understood by many manufacturers
<penguin42>
yep; so I guess the question is how much power can you dissipate without the vendor having to do anything special
<L84Supper>
it's often an afterthought
<penguin42>
yep
<L84Supper>
many Chinese manufacturers bring in thermal management consultants to help finish a design
<L84Supper>
or just brute force by adding larger heat sinks until the device stops dying
<penguin42>
...or ship it and hope....
<L84Supper>
some are slick, they figure the MTBF and plan it for just over the end of the warranty period, X-box was too short, Sony Playstation3 was just long enough
<penguin42>
...until someone points out European warranty stuff if you can show it failed due to a design fault
<L84Supper>
most sat receivers I see with Broadcon chipsets run without any heatsinks on the ASIC's, they last about a year in the US, much longer if you add some fans and heatsinks :)
<penguin42>
yeh but no one ever wants a fan on their STB
<jelly-home>
correction: noone wants the STB to make noise
<L84Supper>
I have one here with 25mm fan inside for the HD
<penguin42>
jelly-home: True
<L84Supper>
and some tiny slots on the side
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<vgrade>
hi guys, long time since I've been here
<L84Supper>
a few mods later and it's going over 3 years
<L84Supper>
I disagree, you are making too many assumptions
<L84Supper>
there is thermal management require both inside and outside the type-II shell
<lkcl>
L84Supper: i'm not the one with the expertise, i'm just "parroting" stuff that i've received from other people.
<lkcl>
if you're familiar with this stuff and can provide links for designers to read _great_
<L84Supper>
the thermal resistance of the shell is pretty easy to determine
<L84Supper>
it has a know composition, thickness and shape
<L84Supper>
but it's not the complete system
<lkcl>
yep - we're planning to use litkconn's stainless steel cases, i believe they're 0.1mm thickness.
<penguin42>
L84Supper: Well I guess the tricky bit is how to make a good thermal contact between the shell and the body of the chassis and something like a label on it could make a big difference
<penguin42>
as well as how to make a good thermal contact between the SoC and the shell - I guess you could use one of the rubbery heat pads for that
<L84Supper>
penguin42: there are a lot of layers to this, and a sticker is literally another layer :)
<penguin42>
L84Supper: Hehe yes
<L84Supper>
if the shell is stand alone then the shell relies mostly on convection for cooling
<penguin42>
yeh, not that there is much airflow in a typical PCMCIA slot
<L84Supper>
if it's mounted in a chassis then it's merely a conductor
<L84Supper>
so my answer is, it depends :)
<L84Supper>
so you have to look at the complete system
<L84Supper>
look at how a laptop manages the CPU core temp
<penguin42>
L84Supper: By blowing air badly through a dust filled grill?
<L84Supper>
thats one way!
<L84Supper>
it works out well, for about the warranty period :)
<L84Supper>
if the makers were required to be responsible for the cpu death for longer, you'd see better designs
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<L84Supper>
I kept an original PS3 working for years past every other PS3 I knew of with some minor mods to the thermal management
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<L84Supper>
I bet that they has a better deign original by the looks of the massive internal fan and then choked the airflow by the design of the small slots in the enclosure
<penguin421>
hmm - why the heck did that just bounce
<penguin421>
wth did my dsl router just give my box a DHCPNAK
<lkcl>
L84Supper: would you be willing to write some of this stuff up, and/or give some good links?
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<hp__>
Rockchip RK3066 UG802 mini PC <<-- very interesting now the source is leaked nice!
<L84Supper>
heh MK802 was the A10 version
<L84Supper>
is UG802 the Rockchip version?
<L84Supper>
if it is there it might be under $30 in a few months
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<mnemoc>
the mk802 iii is not A10
<mnemoc>
it's becoming messy..... like with ainol tablets
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<lkcl>
mnemoc: great! it's like "this is a popular name, now, lots of people searching on the internet: let's overload the name and make more profit yaaay!"
<lkcl>
what they don't realise is: if it's GPL-violating, it entirely defeats the object of the exercise. they'll learn.
<lkcl>
did you hear about how HTC drastically underestimated the power of its geek community?
<lkcl>
geeks _love_ the keyboards on their devices, and talk about them incessantly. the moment HTC abandoned keyboard-based phones, sales *nose-dived* drastically
* mnemoc
loved phones with sliding keyboard
<penguin421>
lkcl: I'm not sure it's just the geeks, in the UK Blackberry's are still quite strong, and I think the primary reason for that is the keyboard
<mnemoc>
but the screen of those is 1/2 the size it should be :p
<penguin421>
yeh, although they were quite high res
<mnemoc>
damn Elop
<mnemoc>
the n900 was awesome
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<discopig>
i <3 the n900
<discopig>
still use it as main phone
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<rz2k>
is there any vsync ioctls in our disp/hdmi/lcd?
<penguin421>
mnemoc: I challenge you to read an 8x8 console font on that
<mnemoc>
:D
<jelly-home>
500dpi would be nice for augmented reality sunglasses
<slapin_nb>
I dunno who needs displays you can't see pixels on
* penguin421
isn't sure he could see much more than HD on a 24@
<mnemoc>
as jelly-home suggested, awesome for glasses
<Turl>
I'm happy with 1366x768 on 16"
<jelly-home>
enough for 1024x768 on glasses, would need to get 600dpi or more for a better resoultion
<ZaEarl>
2048x1536 9.7" displays are dirt cheap.
<mnemoc>
4:3 10" netbook! :p
<mnemoc>
eoma68, obviusly :p
<Turl>
with a i7 3770K please :D
<Turl>
and make it not deintegrate due to heat :P
<ZaEarl>
sun6i, eoma68, and a double-hd display make a compelling computing device
<Turl>
ZaEarl: did you get a sun6i yet?
<ZaEarl>
not yet
<Gumboot>
mnemoc: I see what you mean. I forgot how short my lastlog had become lately.
<Gumboot>
I'm starting to think it would make sense to arrange screwholes so that a 2.5" hard drive or SSD could be screwed directly onto one of these boards. Perhaps on risers.
<penguin421>
yeh
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<lkcl>
ZaEarl: it's totally down to the SoC. however, i'd be a bit concerned about trying to drive those pins at more than... 150mhz. they're not twisted-pairs
<lkcl>
ZaEarl: i thought you were going to sleep!
<libv>
rz2k: about that ioctl, surely that is in the fb headers?
<mnemoc>
Turl: are you subscribed to the #cubieboard list? :) there is a bug report regarding sunxi-bsp's android :)
<ZaEarl>
lkcl, ok, so we can expect FHD to pretty much be tops for eoma68.
<Turl>
mnemoc: yes I am
<Turl>
mnemoc: what's the thread title?
<Turl>
I must've missed it
<mnemoc>
Turl: android on cubieboard
<mnemoc>
Turl: btw, what do you think about a single devices/allwinner repo ?
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<mnemoc>
Turl: so the local manifest is unique and we just need to cp -a the template dir if the particular board is missing
<mnemoc>
also simpler for people to send the patch back
<Turl>
it'll get messy if we ever upstream it though
<mnemoc>
keep the common separated, the rest won't ever be upstreamed
<Turl>
why?
<hno>
mnemoc, if it works for you (it does for me), would you be able to backport to sunxi? A bit tight on other stuff at the moment.
<mnemoc>
hno: will test now. but yes, will try
<mnemoc>
Turl: too many boards and little value?
<mnemoc>
Turl: and for upstreaming the "history" of each particular device isn't very relevant
<Turl>
mnemoc: since when does support require X amount of value? o.O
<hno>
Upstreaming requires committment to keep maintaining.
<mnemoc>
with a good device/allwinner/common, device/allwinner/foo should be pretty simple.... and so a single android_device_allwinner repo makes more sense to me than a thousand android_device_allwinner_foo
<mnemoc>
also simplifies maintaiance as making device trees becomes more ape-proof
<mnemoc>
the starting point trivially scriptable without doing much assumptions
<Turl>
mnemoc: on the technical side, I'm unsure if repo will like a repo inside another one
<mnemoc>
i'm not talking about `repo` the tool, i'm talking about a repo with a .git dir
<Turl>
mnemoc: yeah but the repos with the git dirs are managed by repo the tool
<mnemoc>
so you mean that `repo` won't like to have device/allwinner and device/allwinner/common ?
<Turl>
yeah, I cannot actually think of any such case in use
<Turl>
besides upstreaming ("tradition"?) is to have a repo per device
<Turl>
bbl
<mnemoc>
i wrongly assumed `repo` had the problem of nested repos solved... if not, sure it's a problem. we would need to for your common, and move the stuff one level inside.... and that's not nice
<mnemoc>
hno: yes, works for me :) always with one '?'
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<mnemoc>
hno: change applied to sunxi, tested, and .... pushed :)
<mnemoc>
will make a new run of hwpacks
<hno>
mnemoc, always one ?
<mnemoc>
yes
<mnemoc>
3 reboots on each test
<mnemoc>
all with one '?'
<hno>
Even on hard reboot?
<mnemoc>
no, hard reboot is '?' less
<hno>
Ok.
<hno>
that is expected.
<mnemoc>
why not a while (!ramsize) instead of 3 tries and halt?
<hno>
Because if it need more tries then something is wrong.
<mnemoc>
:)
<hno>
and better to say that something is wrong than continue failing
<mnemoc>
true
<mnemoc>
maybe we can test some dummy dram params after the 3 strikes?
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<hno>
mnemoc, thanks!
<hno>
Will likely explore probing when things is more stable.
<hno>
but need some more boards of different configurations to be willing to maintain that.
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<mnemoc>
it really pisses me off all the talking of ARM about partnerships and licenses and they just ignore the implicit "partnership" they have with the linux kernel and the GPL license
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<mnemoc>
they should remind their partners about *that* license too
<lkcl>
different enough from software for me to be interesting
<mnemoc>
the url thing is unrelated, it's a bunch of updated hardware packs
<lkcl>
but.... eurghhh, orcad's a pain under wine, esp. fvwm. there's a bug in fvwm where w32 dialog boxes *lose focus*.
<mnemoc>
lkcl: can you generate PDFs of those so normal fellows can look? :)
<lkcl>
i've learned that you have to go to a completely random window with the mouse, then bring the...
<lkcl>
noooooo, darn it, i can't. i tried.
<mnemoc>
:(
<lkcl>
even installed ghostscript.exe :)
<mnemoc>
doh
<lkcl>
it's the version of wine that i have, from what i can gather, because printing doesn't work under notepad.exe either
<Triffid_Hunter>
lkcl: kicad and eagle are popular native linux schematic editors
<mnemoc>
tried crossover? they were giving away free 1y licenses
<lkcl>
actually having *a* version of wine that works, i'm veery reluctant to try another.
<mnemoc>
ic
<lkcl>
i don't want the registry / etc. etc. fucked up
<lkcl>
it takes houuurs to install orcad under wine
<lkcl>
i'm deeply impressed that it actually works, though.
<mnemoc>
:)
<mnemoc>
kicard and other linux-friendly editors are not an option?
<lkcl>
Triffid_Hunter: yeah. i've used kicad. love it. except.... the PCB layout system has no built-in auto-router
<mnemoc>
:(
<lkcl>
mnemoc: i tried kicad. got on really well with the *schematics* layout bit.
<Triffid_Hunter>
lkcl: autorouters generally suck
<Triffid_Hunter>
lkcl: they can be helpful but never trust them to lay out your board sensibly.. they don't understand stuff like decoupling or power plane separation or star point grounding
<mnemoc>
real men route boards themselves
<lkcl>
but this is "serious" schematics. we have to talk to chinese ODMs. explaining kicad to them is a step too much. look at what the openmoko team had to go through
<lkcl>
Triffid_Hunter: i won't :) i know _nothing_ about all that stuff :)
<Triffid_Hunter>
lkcl: I use eagle's autorouter mostly to help me work out the best place to put components
<mnemoc>
so we have a volunteer to do the routing part! weeee! thank you Triffid_Hunter
<lkcl>
Triffid_Hunter: so you know roughly what you're doing, with PCB layouts then, eh?
<Triffid_Hunter>
lkcl: I have some idea, yeah
<lkcl>
eyy good stuff
<hno>
lkcl, those hwpacks are not 1gb, only 11mb.
<Triffid_Hunter>
wouldn't want to lay out anything around a BGA though
<lkcl>
hno: oh! ha ha
<lkcl>
i thought they were huge
<lkcl>
Triffid_Hunter: for the tablet design i don't think there's any BGA ICs. the STM32F has a QFP and there's... an SN75LVDS83b. or c probably by now
<hno>
kernel + u-boot + mali iirc.
<lkcl>
got to find a USB hub IC...
<lkcl>
that's pretty small then. neat.
<lkcl>
hno: ^
<lkcl>
probably go with the GL830G because i have some schematics with it.
* lkcl
is a cut/paste fiend :)
<hno>
lkcl, GL850G is very common.
<lkcl>
ahh dearie me, the number of bits of circuit i've cobbled together is hilarious
<lkcl>
hno: ah yes. i seem to be having a thing with numbers today. yes, GL850G. thank you
<hno>
830G seems to be a USB-PATA bridge.
<lkcl>
ok i'm going to put together a GL850G hub IC, i need one to connect the USB WIFI, STM32F, and a couple of USB ports.
<lkcl>
back at it... :)
<mnemoc>
question, if the MCU is reached over USB.... how will the card be able to play with the backlight of the display before the OS gets USB enabled?
<mnemoc>
will the stm32f do that automatically based on the connection/disconnection of the card detected somehow?
<hno>
mnemoc, does it need to?
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<mnemoc>
I don't know how lcd panel work, but i've been told (don't remember where or who) that is done separated of the lvds interface using a pwm
<hno>
Yes. But do EOMA68 based products need to power the backlight before USB is operational?
<mnemoc>
so I assume someone needs to do that before the lvds output can be seen
<mnemoc>
to see something before a full boot.... like the traditional splash screeb
<hno>
for splash screen you need framebuffer + usb then.
<mnemoc>
the seconds of darkness can be very disturbing to people
<hno>
I know.. my lended Android phone is very frustrating. 4 seconds of darkness @poweron.
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<mnemoc>
so we assume it as a weakness of the standard or try to find a way to avoid it? :)
* slapin_
thinks both kicad and eagle are fine with whatever manufacturers as long as gerber files are fine
* slapin_
never seen manufacturers trying to fix errors using various CAD systems
* slapin_
used both kicad and eagle with hw manufacturers in Russia w/o any problems regarding CAD systems themselves
<slapin_>
so that should not stop you or being used as excuse to slack
<hno>
mnemoc, backlight starting @50% is probably a reasonable compromize.
<mnemoc>
hno: but can the STM detect when the card was connected?
<hno>
not sure. But it can for sure detect when the STM is powered on.
<mnemoc>
hno: to set the backlight to 50 and then to 0 when disconnected
<mnemoc>
ok
<hno>
Isn't the STM also connected on I2C?
<mnemoc>
not sure.... but i suppose it should, to fake the eeprom with the DT struct
<hno>
Also much more suitable to have backlight on I2C than USB.
<mnemoc>
lkcl: ----^ comments?
* slapin_
votes for i2c, too
<mnemoc>
can we still that add to the standard? :p
<hno>
i2c for device control, USB for bulk transfers (i.e. audio, storage) and HID.
<hno>
But yes, hot plug/unplug events should be specified on how to detect.
<hno>
i2c do not have any. It's all silent until used for some command.
<hno>
both CPU card and I/O card need to detect plug/unplug events.