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<Wardrop>
pipecloud: Why do I want to do what, define local variables with a proc, or why bother writing Scorched?
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<Wardrop>
pipecloud: I assume your judgement of "junk and glue" is based on the fact that you don't like the idea of defining local variables after-the-fact within Proc's?
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<Wardrop>
anyway, I've got to duck out for the moment. Will be back in half an hour or so. Happy to discuss further if interested.
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<pipecloud>
Wardrop: Why are you using procs in this way, and since you are why are you doing with the locals?
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<pipecloud>
Wardrop: Secondarily, why would anyone use scorched over sinatra or any of the other microframeworks, libraries, and tools?
<Wardrop>
I'd just like to add that defining local variables like I've been discussing is just an idea I wanted to play with. I don't think it's as "
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<Wardrop>
..."ugly" as one might assume, despite the fact it certainly sounds ugly.
<Wardrop>
pipecloud: Have a look at the README (homepage) and maybe check out the About page: http://scorchedrb.com
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<Wardrop>
Scorched is an evolution of Sinatra, and if you read about it you'll hopefully see that.
<Wardrop>
Anyway, like I said, I'll be back
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<pipecloud>
Ah, I see. It looks neat. I'd likely not use it, but I'll give things a read and see if it interests me.
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<apeiros>
Wardrop: "Scorched aims to be raw and transparent. Magic has no place." - lol? :)
<apeiros>
"let's inject lvars, because that's not magic!"
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<pipecloud>
apeiros: Please ignore the man behind the curtain.
* apeiros
dresses up his red slippers and goes back to kansas
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<apeiros>
oh, ruby slippers even
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<imjacobclark>
I'm a little lost on how to run Sinatra whilst also be able to run my tests, I resorted to running rackup as a deamon (rackup -D)
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<Wardrop>
apeiros: I was waiting for someone to point that out :)
<Wardrop>
There's always room for exceptions if they benefits are there. As I said, local variables is an interesting idea that would make route Proc's DRY'er. As well as not being a fan of magic, I'm also a big fan of DRY which Scorched implements heavily. It's a matter of which takes precedence in instances like these.
<Wardrop>
if the* benefits are there
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<Wardrop>
apeiros: I also like to have my ideas and opinions challenged. It ensures my ideas are well thought through, and opinions justified. Alas, local variable injection is perhaps looking less appealing.
<apeiros>
Wardrop: I think you misunderstood what DRY means
<apeiros>
s/DRY/shorter/ here
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<Wardrop>
get('/::title/::id') { |title, id| # not dry }
<Wardrop>
get('/::title/::id') { |captures| p captures[:title] # better }
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<Wardrop>
get('/::title/::id') { p title # DRY, though a little magical }
<apeiros>
seriously, that has nothing to do with DRY.
<Wardrop>
With local variable injection, there's exactly zero repetition. With the second example, you could argue there's also no repetition, but it's certainly more verbose.
<apeiros>
you should educate yourself on what DRY means. it's not a synonym for "shorter code"
<apeiros>
it also does not mean "you must not use the same variable multiple times". that's not the kind of repetition DRY refers to.
<Wardrop>
apeiros: It's absolutely DRY. Naming the capture `title` within the pattern string itself, then naming it again as an argument is not completely DRY.
<apeiros>
you. abuse. that. word. really.
<apeiros>
stop it.
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<Wardrop>
aperios: DRY is about not repeating logic or configuration/wiring. Convention over configuration is a form of DRY. It prevents you from repeating yourself BETWEEN projects.
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<apeiros>
Wardrop: hint, use tab completion for nicks. avoids misspelling them.
<MrZYX>
also you don't repeat yourself that much in a conversation
<apeiros>
and I full well know what DRY is. your above examples of code having nothing to do with it.
<MrZYX>
scnr
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<Wardrop>
apeiros: Not everyone uses an editor with tab completion FYI.
<apeiros>
Wardrop: about every irc client supports tab completion
<apeiros>
and if yours doesn't, it's probably a rather shitty client :-p
<Wardrop>
Oh sorry, you meant nick names
<Wardrop>
apeiros: I honestly didn't know that, thanks.
<apeiros>
yw
<Wardrop>
apeiros: Perhaps you can elaborate on your definition of DRY
<apeiros>
Wardrop: I'm quite certain C2 and WP have good definitions of it. your wording after certainly came closer to what DRY is.
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<Wardrop>
Defining a name twice when you can avoid it, is not DRY. That's what this shows: get('/::title/::id') { |title, id| # not dry }
<Wardrop>
The second example is DRY, just a little more verbose than the last example.
<apeiros>
Wardrop: wrong.
<apeiros>
just. plain. wrong.
<Wardrop>
apeiros: Banana
<apeiros>
variable repetition has *nothing* to do with DRY/not DRY
<Wardrop>
apeiros: We're not talking about repeating variables within application logic when they're actually referenced. I'm talking about naming them multiple times. In that example I gave, you're naming a capture twice. Once within the pattern `/::id/::title` and once within the proc, `{ |id, title| }`
<apeiros>
Wardrop: yes. still *zero* linkage to DRY.
<Wardrop>
apeiros: I could point you to the first sentence of the Wikipedia article "a principle aimed at reducing repetition of information of all kinds"
<apeiros>
Wardrop: yes, and that's why you use it that way, because you stop reading there.
<apeiros>
Wardrop: I'm curious, do you always only read the first sentence in a definition?
<apeiros>
your understanding of this world must certainly be rather funny then…
<Wardrop>
apeiros: Of course not, I was just demonstrating how I can reference material online that supports my definition of DRY.
<apeiros>
anyway, up to you whether you want to abuse the word/principle and refuse to learn its meaning.
<apeiros>
it's 0200 here and I'll go afk now.
<Wardrop>
No worries
<apeiros>
Wardrop: dude, if you want to make up "your definition" of DRY, go ahead. it's just not *the* definition of DRY. which means you're out of synch with, um, everybody else…
* apeiros
off
<Wardrop>
I think our definitions are the same. It's a matter of interpretation I believe.
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<Wardrop>
apeiros: I don't think it's possible to prove which of us has made the most correct or best interpretation of a concept that's never been formalised.
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<Lewix>
im not sure where the blank lines in the output are coming from
<centrx>
you have a bunch of new lines before and after the print?
<Lewix>
centrx: its only specific to line 124 and 126
<Lewix>
i mean the blank lines are between those two
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<centrx>
Lewix, Hard to say, I doubt that is caused by changing to use define_method
<Lewix>
centrx: yea i had it before
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<centrx>
Lewix, It must be from format_show, if the space between show_unique_customers and show_customers_with_gas is really different than the space between show_customers_with_gas and show_customers_with_electricity
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<Lewix>
centrx: sorry the space is between show_all_data and show_unique_customers
<centrx>
:(
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<centrx>
Lewix, I bet there are customers with no data, but the puts still outputs a new line for them
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<apeiros>
hopkins83: huh? the second one also install rvm, the first one doesn't, no?
<Wardrop>
Of course everyone would prefer the first example. Does it need to be asked :)
<hopkins83>
apeiros: The first one is just a dream. I feel that rvm's existence is threatened by chruby. Maybe if rvm were to radically simplify its UI, it'd have a greater chance of survival.
<hopkins83>
Wardrop: Hehe thanks man :)
<apeiros>
hopkins83: I understood, that the first is an idea. but your second line is obviously something that works already.
<apeiros>
hopkins83: and I'd assume that the idea and the reality are supposed to do the same thing
<whitequark>
yorickpeterse1: "I'm on github" ?
<whitequark>
also yes, that's going to happen Real Soon™
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<apeiros>
hopkins83: but the reality one installs rvm - and I don't see how you could install rvm, by using the rvm command - which isn't on the system before installing it…
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<hopkins83>
apeiros: Good point
<hopkins83>
apeiros: Spoke to the author though, seems simpler commands are coming for rvm2
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<hopkins83>
apeiros: Well you gotta refresh the shell
<hopkins83>
apeiros: Make that Ruby the default one
<apeiros>
rvm install 2.1 --default
<apeiros>
don't remember having to refresh the shell, but maybe
<hopkins83>
Yeah that's a nice shortcut.
<hopkins83>
But still the user shouldn't have to do all that. Imo it would be great if rvm could do all that.
<apeiros>
what's "all that"?
<apeiros>
you sound as if there was tons of things to do. I don't see those tons of things.
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<hopkins83>
Forcing the user to involve curl and bash, setting defaults, refreshing the shell
<hopkins83>
No they're not tons of things
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<toretore>
you still on about this
<apeiros>
hopkins83: I didn't see how you made installing rvm itself simpler
<apeiros>
hopkins83: I mean your fantasy of `rvm latest` can't possibly work, since rvm isn't there when you want to install it…
<hopkins83>
apeiros: Still working on that :)
<hopkins83>
theres gotta be a way.. hmmm
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<apeiros>
hopkins83: and while yes, you could change the default of rvm install to assume --default, and require an explicit --no-default, I don't see how you can make `rvm install 2.1` any simpler without sacrificing clarity
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<toretore>
somebody has yet to have their day ruined by automagic i see
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<apeiros>
I could also imagine using `latest[ engine]` as a value to install the lastest ruby version. funny enough, that's longer than just 2.1 :)
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<hopkins83>
Hey Lewix :)
<MrZYX>
that's two parameters in the block passed to select
<MrZYX>
and what you see here is array decomposition at work
<Lewix>
MrZYX: sorry that's what I meant
<MrZYX>
it's basically the same as a, b = ["a", "b"]
<Lewix>
hopkins83: hello there
<hopkins83>
Lewix: Thanks for last time!
<hopkins83>
Lewix: I remember you helped me with some stuff a while back.
<MrZYX>
select iterates over the outer array, passing each inner array to the block
<MrZYX>
that decomposes the two element arrays, writing the first element into c and ignoring the second one (calling a variable _ says I don't care about it)
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<MrZYX>
so it's a feature of how blocks work, not how select works
<Lewix>
MrZYX: beautiful explanation
<Lewix>
hopkins83: anytime
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<Lewix>
MrZYX: thanks
<MrZYX>
yw
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<MrZYX>
Lewix: it can get a lot more complex than that, if you want to dig deeper google array decomposition
<Lewix>
MrZYX: I'll pass. I tend to go in the rabbit hole a lot - I was just on my way out of it
<hopkins83>
lol
* hopkins83
is on his way to only using his computer /smartphone during weekends :P
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<apeiros>
I find it appalling that people abuse terms like that. if it's a linked list, call it a linked list.
<whitequark>
it's just actively harmful in this case, JS code assumes arrays
<apeiros>
oh I see. haven't read the about. it's a JS interpreter… I see…
<apeiros>
IMO could do a lot better than 20byte/O
<apeiros>
I mean JS has very few real basic object types
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<whitequark>
it's a source interpreter even. comments inside functions make it slower (!!!)
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<apeiros>
whitequark: curious, can LLVM be used for such small systems?
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<whitequark>
apeiros: define "used". as a JIT? hell no, statically built LLVM+ARM backend is somewhere around 120MB of executable code
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<whitequark>
well, maybe half of that if you do a release build
<whitequark>
not to think of how horribly slow and bloated it is for a JIT compiler
<apeiros>
oh
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<apeiros>
that's a scary size for such a system
<whitequark>
there's much better options for jitting. say luajit
<whitequark>
but practical applicaiton of luajit still requires ~32MB of RAM (see tessel.io... the problem they solved is horrible, but they did solve it nicely)
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<apeiros>
llvm can also generate binaries, no?
<whitequark>
sure, in this case it's already used
<apeiros>
or is it another tool which can compile llvm bytecode to a binary?
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<whitequark>
when you use clang or rust or ... to build code for an embedded system
<whitequark>
llvm includes such a tool... llc
<apeiros>
ok. so those reach a reasonably small size then?
<Lewix>
How do you balance short method name with making sense what the method does
<whitequark>
it depends on the source language then
<apeiros>
Lewix: I don't
<whitequark>
for example microcontrollers have been programmed in C for decades
<apeiros>
Lewix: I go with the long name and shit on people who fail to use a proper editor with tab completion
<Lewix>
How do you balance short method names with making sense of what the method does
<whitequark>
sure, clang would be as capable of that as other C compilers... sometimes better
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<Lewix>
apeiros: i like this idea better
<apeiros>
a lot of what the method does should be evident from context, though (class name, e.g.)
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<apeiros>
whitequark: have you played with emscripten?
<whitequark>
apeiros: somewhat
<apeiros>
enough to have an opinion on it? :)
<whitequark>
emscripten is fine if you have a truckload of legacy code you need to have running NOW
<whitequark>
e.g. something like scummvm with lots of C-dependent, tricky simulation code, and SDL output
<whitequark>
but it's really a last-resort tool more useful for prototypes and digital archiving than something you'd actually want (as opposed to have) to use.
<apeiros>
hm, and with new code, which targets llvm?
<whitequark>
you can technically compile new code with emscripten, but think about this:
<apeiros>
i.e., if you already have something which emits llvm bytecode
<whitequark>
how do you interact with outside world? remember, there's no DOM inside emscripten
<whitequark>
there's a fake filesystem and you can kinda execute calls, except you need to manually handle ABI wrapping and basically work on a level *lower than C*
<whitequark>
*execute functions
<apeiros>
hm
<whitequark>
now, how do you debug emscripten-generated code? right, you don't
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<apeiros>
hmmm
<apeiros>
I see
<apeiros>
can't/doesn't it use the same hooks for debugging which have been created for coffee script?
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<apeiros>
called codemapping or something like that, don't remember
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<whitequark>
no
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<whitequark>
source maps assume there's a nearly 1:1 correspondence between generated code and source
<whitequark>
perhaps some expressions reshuffled around
<apeiros>
ok, so not feasible
<whitequark>
with emscripten, you have a truckload of very complex optimizations by LLVM, combined with an emulated x86-like environment inside JS
<whitequark>
debuggers or VMs have absolutely no idea about most of that. in theory you could write emscripten-gdb, but afaik no such thing exists
<whitequark>
it would be miserable either way
<apeiros>
I understand. thanks :)
<whitequark>
also think about this: optimized builds result in tens or hundreds of megabytes of JS sources. now imagine actually loading a debug build in the browser.
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<whitequark>
it'll burst and send the streams of bits gushing all around
<apeiros>
aaahaha, ouch, yes
<apeiros>
user will burst out in tears and hit cancel :D
<whitequark>
kill -9 more likely
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<whitequark>
chromium used to hang very hard when you simply tried to look at 1MB of text in a single line
<whitequark>
er, pattern-matching emscripten-generated
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<whitequark>
outside of that tiniest domain it's useless
<apeiros>
I thought more of code explicitly targeting asm.js
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<whitequark>
that still applies
<whitequark>
asm.js is a formalization of the code emscripten generates
<whitequark>
code patterns
<whitequark>
you'd need to be in the same domain as emscripten to use asm.js
<whitequark>
also, v8 manages to squeeze out comparable performance without looking at "use asm" and without forbidding you to use DOM and other browser APIs
<apeiros>
hm
<whitequark>
I maintain an opinion that asm.js is useless and perhaps harmful in long run
<apeiros>
well, I thought the asm.js subset could potentially allow one to implement a more efficient VM for embedded systems. an embedded system doesn't have a DOM either anyway
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<apeiros>
i.e., js by not having anything but floats for numbers makes space efficient math difficult
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<apeiros>
asm.js somewhat alleviates that
<whitequark>
we already have such a target
<whitequark>
it's called, surprise, machine code
<apeiros>
but I just looked it up and it only offers 4byte ints
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<whitequark>
emscripten internally emulates something that looks very much like x86, well, you could say, a typical consumer-grade 32-bit processor
<apeiros>
yeah, sure. but I think the point of "JS for embedded" interpreters is to provide access to embedded systems to a wider audience
<whitequark>
see, asm.js is not JS in the slightest
<whitequark>
none of the stuff you know about JS will help you if you have something that executes asm.js
<apeiros>
and I'd think that it'd get a lot more feasible if one would not go for ECMAScript, but a subset. i.e., let it look mostly like JS, but have some ways to be more efficient.
<whitequark>
"It can’t allocate normal JavaScript objects or access normal JavaScript properties. No JavaScript strings. Only arithmetic and typed arrays (a single one actually with multiple views). It can’t call arbitrary JavaScript functions, only those that you imported explicitly into your code, and it can only pass numbers into them and get a number out.
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<whitequark>
Essentially OdinMonkey is a hammer that targets performance sweet spot that is narrower than anything we had before in JavaScript. It hits the spot perfectly but here is the catch, the first danger that I sense: OdinMonkey is a hammer that will kill incentive to optimize JavaScript that humans write."
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<whitequark>
there's no "js" in "asm.js"
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<whitequark>
and the "asm" part is ridiculous too, in that you actually need to optimize the code before it'll run any fast
<whitequark>
and it doesn't even have an escape hatch or any link with the semantics of the underlying platform, which simply doesn't fly with embedded
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<apeiros>
pretty damning
<whitequark>
to me, it is absurd to watch people liking asm.js. they either have absolutely no idea on what it actually is, or happen to have a problem for which asm.js is a sweet spot, that is, a bunch of emscripten-generated code
<whitequark>
even then it's not required to get good performance out of it, as v8 demonstrates
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<pipecloud>
whitequark: That or they really do think JavaScript is close to the metal.
<whitequark>
see "have absolutely no idea"
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<imjacobclark>
Hi, can anybody take a look at my Rakefile and point me in a direction of an improved Rakefile... ha! (new to Ruby/Rake)
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<r0bgleeson>
imjacobclark: if you paste the Rakefile sure
<imjacobclark>
New to Ruby, new to Rake, wasn't sure if the system() commands were recomended
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<r0bgleeson>
rake provides "sh" for that
<r0bgleeson>
sh "bundle XX"
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<r0bgleeson>
not really sure what the difference is to be honest
<r0bgleeson>
sh(*cmd, &block)
<r0bgleeson>
Run the system command cmd. If multiple arguments are given the command is not run with the shell (same semantics as Kernel::exec and Kernel::system).