<tuxbrain>
ladies(if any)..., gentleman(also if any).... I have a working (or at least ejecutable) avr-toolchain + avrdude patched installed on my NN.....YIPIKAYHEY!!!!!!
<tuxbrain>
the problem is that I'm getting out of space on NN only 57Mb left
<tuxbrain>
so I can't install anything with opkg
<tuxbrain>
now that that speed has been improved we can't change the partition size to something a litlle bit bigger?
<wpwrak>
;-))
<wpwrak>
you could offer a web-based compilation service, let the ben connect to it via cdc_ether
<xiangfu>
tuxbrain: congratulations,
<xiangfu>
tuxbrain: I would like make help make arv-toolchian + avrdude as openwrt packages.
<xiangfu>
:)
<tuxbrain>
xiangfu: I would love to have it, really, but I can guess it will not be trivial
<tuxbrain>
I have an installation error on gcc I have to solve manually copying reanaming the executable gcc-cross to avr-gcc manually, and avr-lib needs native ->avr copilation toolchain .... gooddamn  I'm barelly not knowing what I'm saying
<tuxbrain>
avr-lib->avr-libc
<tuxbrain>
patched avrdude yes is trivial :)
<tuxbrain>
moving the 90Mb of the toolchain to uSD to do some test
<tuxbrain>
I will have to mount the extra Nand space to install all this...
<tuxbrain>
why NN live is never easy...
<tuxbrain>
?
<wpwrak>
it is if you cross-compile ;-)
<tuxbrain>
I want to cross-compile :) but in NN :P
<tuxbrain>
there is anything I can empty on a vanila lastest distro  to gain some space? I was unable to install gcc-mips and libgcc?, only 115K left
<tuxbrain>
well dudes time to some sleep , let's see if tomorrow I fin a way to fit all that(gcc-mips, libgcc, avr-toolchain, avr-dude, arduino libs and arduino template Makefile) on NAND somehow to free the precious GPIO pins to do the test
<wpwrak>
tuxyeah, it would kinda suck if you needed a memory card for this ;-)))
<wpwrak>
bah, tuxbrain: ...
<tuxbrain>
we have 2Gb on nand there has to be a way to fit I guess :)
<tuxbrain>
tuxyeah XD
<Jay7>
nice nickname :)
<Jay7>
is building native-sdk-image for nanonote
<Jay7>
-> sleep
<tuxbrain>
well I will use it when I finaly make my arduino blink at NN will :P
<RylandAlmanza>
Hi, I'm a programmer thinking of buying a nanonote. Would this be suitable for my purposes? I would generally be using it for programming, but I would also like to know what kind of limitations there are on wifi.
<wolfspraul>
sounds like it is very suitable, yes
<wolfspraul>
what kind of programming interests you?
<RylandAlmanza>
a very broad range, but how about webdesign? Even if I didn't have wifi, it would still be good for developing and testing websites, correct?
<wolfspraul>
no
<wolfspraul>
do you like large screens?
<wolfspraul>
the NanoNote is a very mobile small thingie. no touch-screen, only keyboard.
<RylandAlmanza>
I don't mind small screens, but I didn't think about what that would do to the websites
<wolfspraul>
it's cpu power is limited, 336 mhz mips, 32 mb memory
<RylandAlmanza>
would it be somewhat like viewing a website on a cell phone?
<wolfspraul>
so depends on what you think about when you say 'websites'
<wolfspraul>
no
<wolfspraul>
the cell phones have crazily optimized browsers
<RylandAlmanza>
ah, I see
<wolfspraul>
there is no way the NanoNote can match that
<wolfspraul>
the browser you can find useful on NanoNote is more something like lynx, elinks, w3m, netsurf
<wolfspraul>
if that kind of challenge interests you, go for it
<wolfspraul>
if you compare with a browser on a recent iphone/android, don't go there it will disappoint you
<RylandAlmanza>
Anyway, webdesign was just an Idea. I would be content with even just console based applications
<wolfspraul>
browsing through this list may give you a rough idea where things are today, at least in OpenWrt
<wolfspraul>
there is also Jlime
<RylandAlmanza>
Ok, thanks, I'll have a look at it right now :)
<wolfspraul>
on the programming side, things that are 'not bad' today are guile, python, perl, php, bash, gforth - in GUI toolkits sdl, qt, gtk
<RylandAlmanza>
Sounds like a blast to me! Right now I'm stuck with trying to program on a Nintendo DS with linux installed on a hombrew cart... Doesn't work very well...
<RylandAlmanza>
But, by "not bad," could you be more specific? What kinds of things wouldn't work? I'm pretty sure I've got my mind set on buying one of these no matter what, but I'd like to know anyway.
<wolfspraul>
hmm. I'm just one guy, I cannot qualify so many different toolkits and languages.
<wolfspraul>
when I say 'not bad' that means I think it works, but there may be bugs
<wolfspraul>
when can you say 'pythin is great on the NanoNote'?
<wolfspraul>
I think I can only say that if I know several very active Python app development are going on.
<wolfspraul>
and there is someone here in irc who says "Python on the NanoNote is great"
<wolfspraul>
like for example we have emacs on the NanoNote
<wolfspraul>
but emacs is big, and whether it's 'good' or 'not good' depends on many details
<wolfspraul>
for emacs, David Kuehling who is sometimes on this list (nick: dvdk) can give you a definitive and honest answer where emacs stands today
<wolfspraul>
for guile, maybe zedstar
<wolfspraul>
we have working sdl, qt and gtk apps on the NanoNote, so those toolkits definitely work
<RylandAlmanza>
Ok, thanks for all the help, I'm going to keep looking over that wiki page, and I'll let you know if I have anymore questions. :)
<wolfspraul>
sure, thanks for your questions, and stop by anytime...
<wolfspraul>
are you in the US?
<wolfspraul>
at this time it's quiet here because of timezone
<RylandAlmanza>
Yes, I am.
<wolfspraul>
the Europeans are mostly asleep
<RylandAlmanza>
Ah.
<wolfspraul>
we have some 'Americans', though mostly in the south :-) (Colombia, Argentina)
<wolfspraul>
and I'm here, and some other Asian early rises...
<RylandAlmanza>
What time is it where you are?
<wolfspraul>
10:20 am
<wolfspraul>
beijing
<RylandAlmanza>
Oh, cool. Where did you learn english so well?
<wolfspraul>
in the US
<wolfspraul>
worked in Connecticut for over 10 years
<wolfspraul>
if you order a NanoNote (just explaining some background info), it will come from Hong Kong with Fedex
<wolfspraul>
it costs about 25 USD shipping, and takes 3-4 days to arrive
<RylandAlmanza>
Ok, I'm willing to pay 25 USD shipping, and I actually would've expected it to take longer than that. Thanks for the info :)
<wolfspraul>
we would be very happy to welcome you to the club, sounds like you are doing closely related things already with Nintendo Linux hacking etc.
<RylandAlmanza>
Yeah, just very hard with a Nintendo DS, because it wasn't meant for that kind of stuff. A nanonote would definately be much more suitable.
<rjeffries_>
wolfspraul when you listed a few programming languages that are "not bad" on Ben NN for that guy, you missed Lua. ;)
<rjeffries_>
compared to programming on his Nintendo DS vs Ben NN, he will think he died and went to heaven
<wolfspraul>
Lua, true
<wolfspraul>
sorry about that
<wolfspraul>
I just was listing off the top of my mind
<wolfspraul>
we have so many :-)
<wolfspraul>
I want to consolidate a little, make a list of 'officially' supported programming languages
<wolfspraul>
but it's so hard to qualify how good language support actually is
<wolfspraul>
because every language ties into libraries, extensions, modules. some things may be hopelessly non-performant, so it's better to not even claim they exist. and so on.
<wolfspraul>
we get to it over time
<rjeffries_>
yup
<wolfspraul>
best is if every language is 'alive' in the sense that there are actively maintained programs/apps/games using it, with people behind.
<wpwrak>
(and some of the "americans" only come back after dinner ;-)
<wpwrak>
roh: (uart) nice :) but i'm actually more after the avr than the uart functionality per se. the uart doesn't do much for me, but having an avr is good.
<zrafa>
yeah, we eat from this part
<wpwrak>
needs to make progress with the spectrum analyzer so that i have an excuse for cutting the wifi ;-)
<aw>
wpwrak, have you ever used PPTC resettable polyfuse?
<wpwrak>
no, i haven't used polyfuses yet
<kyak>
wow.. i really do know how to waste my time. Building and running malta target in qemu is so easily done with openwrt, just a matter of few "clicks"
<kyak>
why the hell i did that by hand..
<wpwrak>
kyak: for wasting your time, try building your kernels on the ben. that should do nicely :)
<aw>
wpwrak, thanks.
<kyak>
i tried, it doesn't waste my time, it is wasting Ben's time :)
<kyak>
ok, what i actually wanted to see is if kexec will work on mipsel malta
<wpwrak>
kyak: what's the actual problem ? that it is supposed to work but for some reason doesn't ? or do we have a more specific situation ?
<kyak>
well, it _should_ work, and some people even reported that it works on mips with their routers. And there are even some patches, but after all it just doesn't owkr
<kyak>
the last thing i see before everything hangs is "Switching no new kernel bla-bla-... Bye.."
<wpwrak>
hmm, nasty then
<kyak>
yes, very annoying,too
<wpwrak>
to kexec(1) seems to be happy
<kyak>
and the worst thing is that i feel that this is beyond my knowledge
<kyak>
i wil try with qemu as a last resort, then i'll give up :)
<wpwrak>
there are worse situations :) like realizing that this ought to be within your knowledge but that you really shouldn't sink that day or two into it just now :)
<kyak>
yeah, this is bad
<wpwrak>
kyak: if you have a serial console, that may help. could be that the new kernel starts but dies later on.
<kyak>
wpwrak: no serial console -\ This is i thought qemu might help
<wpwrak>
kyak: you could also put a loop somewhere early. e.g., outputting something on UBB :)
<wpwrak>
(something) like a square wave
<wpwrak>
that way, you'd see if you reach that point
<kyak>
i.e. this needs to be done in kernel code?
<wpwrak>
debugging the early boot code is no fun, because you don't have printk
<kyak>
outputting something to UBB
<kyak>
oh, there are printk's
<kyak>
at least during the "Bye.." message :)
<wpwrak>
yes, this looks like something that needs to be done in the kernel
<wpwrak>
the question is how far you get after the "bye"
<kyak>
yes, this is a good question
<wpwrak>
that may be very short. e.g., you may crash within 1-2 instructions if you have the wrong address
<wpwrak>
if you make it to the new kernel, it may still die very early -> low-level uart output or toggling a ubb line
<kyak>
you are right..
<wpwrak>
if you make it a little further, you want console output
<wpwrak>
could also be that everything is fine but it just can't bring up the lcm
<kyak>
sounds like debugging the kernel is a nigthmare :)
<wpwrak>
debugging the early kernel is hard. once you make it a bit further, it gets easier
<kyak>
wow! i remember you mentioned you planted a tree in the kernel :)
<wpwrak>
ah no, it's not that one ;-) my seeds are things like the fat file system and initrd
<kyak>
but that you were a predecessor of kexec!!
<kyak>
very cool :)
<kyak>
seems that i could use your hand
<wpwrak>
conceptually, yes. kexec was an independent implementation. peter anvin and i helped to smoothen it (kexec) a little, though. and i bribed linus with a beer to consider it for inclusion into mainline ;-)
<kyak>
ah, so this is how it works! corruption everywhere ;)
<wpwrak>
indeed ;-)
<kyak>
wpwrak: i remember you said once that you are unemployed at the moment. Is it still the case? (i don't have anything to offer to you, but it seems that you are the man of many talents)
<wpwrak>
yeah, qi-hw is still my full-time hobby. i plan to keep it this way for at least one more month, then i'll have to start looking for some real income
<kyak>
your employer will be lucky to have you :)
<wpwrak>
thanks ;-)
<kyak>
root@OpenWrt:/# kexec -l /lib/vmlinux.elf
<kyak>
Invalid memory segment 0x100000 - 0xeaffff
<kyak>
coudl be a problem because this vmlinux.elf has ramfs built-in..
<wpwrak>
hmm. maybe. if it;'s truly too big, yes
<kyak>
yeah, 43Mb
<kyak>
will try with a bare kernel..
<wpwrak>
yeah, 43 MB sounds unhealthy for a 32 MB machine ;)
<kyak>
nah, i boot with -m 256
<kyak>
(start qemu, i mean)
<wpwrak>
hmm, qemu may change the picture
<kyak>
# kexec -l /lib/vmlinux.bin
<kyak>
Cannot determine the file type of /lib/vmlinux.bin
<kyak>
hmm ok, so kexec insists on having elf image..
<wpwrak>
how about adding a serial console ?
<kyak>
to Ben?
<wpwrak>
kexec also has an option -t to force the file type. a binary without headers or such may need this.
<kyak>
ok, will try that
<wpwrak>
(serial console) yes, to the ben
<wpwrak>
for kernel hacking, a serial console is quite handy
<wpwrak>
it lets you do things like putting a  cli(); while (1);  right after some point of interest, and you'll still see everything that happened shortly before
<kyak>
yeah, i might want to consider that.. But first i need to buy this ttl<->COM port cable
<wpwrak>
or another ben :)
<kyak>
oh!
<kyak>
what a great idea :)
<wpwrak>
is working hard on increasing wolfgang's sales :)
<kyak>
i was considering the second ben anyway. Was waiting for some confirmation about wifi card from wolfspraul :)
<wpwrak>
seems that all he has left are somewhat questionable wifi cards. i think pulster may have some, though.
<wpwrak>
hmm, time for a siesta before i fall off the chair :)
<kyak>
now that you've given me the use case for the second Ben, this sale could work without the wifi card :)
<wpwrak>
;-)
<kyak>
what i'm hearing? Mighty Werner is going to sleep? :)
<kyak>
have a good rest then ;)
<Jay7>
morning
<Jay7>
kyak: buy me one ttl<->com too ;)
<Jay7>
at least say me how to find it :)
<kyak>
Jay7: do you mean, buy you another Ben? :)
<Jay7>
kyak: no, I mean only that special cable :)
<kyak>
insane... they ask ~1200 roubles (42 USD) for such cable
<xiangfu>
it's not /dev/ttyS1. it is /dev/ttyS0 have four pin out. two under battery. the other two is share with JTAG pins.
<xiangfu>
kyak: the TP4 and TP5 can switch by software  JTAG <--> ttyS0
<xiangfu>
kyak: for now. it's ttyS0. I think kristianpaul is using this port connect the GPS.
<kyak>
ok, so it requires some modifications
<kyak>
(using jtag)
<kyak>
using usb-ttl cable we can simply connect to TX/RX/GND pins under the battery
<kyak>
therefore, the jtag board for MM can't be used without disassembling Ben?
<xiangfu>
kyak: correct.
<tuxbrain>
kyak I supose if you want the jtag funcionallity yes but if you can live only with serial I suppose you can those under the battery , isn't it xiangfu?
<tuxbrain>
kyak also if you can live without the ben keyboard meanwhile you have serial plugged
<kyak>
hm
<kyak>
do you mean that serial port and keyboard share some pins?
<kyak>
it means that the second Ben can't be used (via keyboard at least) as a ttl cable :)
<wpwrak>
kyak: (need sleep) yeah. ubuntu and usrp2_fft killed me yesterday.
<wpwrak>
kyak: (serial) there is one uart but it has two sets of pins. one set is shared with jtag while the other is only uart or gpio. alas, we have the keyboard on one of the uart/gpio lines. the uart/jtag ones are available.
<wpwrak>
kyak: but an ftdi may indeed be easier to handle in this case, even though the company is unpleasant
<kyak>
wpwrak: okay :) thanks for information
<kristianpaul>
wpwrak: what i need activate for kernel debug/console by serial port. my laptop have an onboard serial port,so i was thiking in wiring it with the nanonote so i can get fun with linux someday
<wpwrak>
the console is already activated. just connect the 3.3V-compatible uart and you're good.
<wpwrak>
kristianpaul: btw, the idea of reusing the jtag board sounds quite good. this may be an easier first step than messing with the laptop.
<kristianpaul>
ok, so i need solder jtag pads :-)
<wpwrak>
in the ben, yes
<kristianpaul>
sure ;)
<wpwrak>
nice .. i now have a pretty fast spectrum analyzer for the usrp2 that does exactly what _I_ want ;-) that's a relief after the day of pain
<kristianpaul>
ubuntu pain? ;)
<kristianpaul>
i was told gnuradio works prety well in fedora
<kristianpaul>
oh, i dint noticed the _I_
<wpwrak>
well, it all began with me trying to upgrade ubuntu in order to resolve that jikes dependency. i looked at their download site and found "natty". not realizing that this was only alpha, i installed it. things went downhill from there ...
<wpwrak>
(fedora) and i'm not going to switch distributions like that ;-))
<kristianpaul>
no no, just saying :-)
<wpwrak>
yesterday, i tried to 1) reinstall some packages to see if it was just some dependency mishap, 2) examine where usrp2_fft.py segfaulted, 3) disable DRI in my X (it segfaulted in DRI), 4) look for alternative spectrum analyzer implementations and try to make them run, and finally, after all the rest failed, 5) started writing my own.
<kristianpaul>
what is your  current spectrum analyzer implementation?
<kristianpaul>
oh, writing :D
<wpwrak>
nice .. does about 60 fps :)
<wpwrak>
80% cpu, single-threaded. i should at least dual-thread it.
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: just suggestion but have you saw this http://www.varesano.net/projects/hardware/Femtoduino, is CCBySA, is in KiCad, is small , is cheap.... maybe it can be a replacement on UART? more power more versatility and it can also act as our proposals of SPI/UART translator, but more things in addition
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: yeah, looks nice. you can play with this one, too :) UART is more proof of concept than anything else. and it's still much smaller ;-))
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: from the software side, they should be almost the same. so you can apply things i do for uart (avrdude and such) to the femtoduino as well
<tuxbrain>
wpwrak: the problem is that is not aviable yet :), so to play with it I have to produce it.... let's play first with his big brother UNO
<tuxbrain>
that's the cool thing on the atmega family, once you have the soft for one, you barelly have the soft for all
<tuxbrain>
I will have a busy week , so my time to play with ardunote will be barelly nothing, I hope next week I can arrange a hacking session to finish the base system.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: will you go to the pcb fab tomorrow ?
<tuxbrain>
no they will sendme the pcbs to home
<tuxbrain>
They ignore my visiti proposal :(
<tuxbrain>
visit
<tuxbrain>
I suppose they will arrive by the end of the week