<rjeffries>
I hope that the thiner fiberglass his uart needs will decrease cost
<rjeffries>
hello David a.k.a. tuxbrain
<rjeffries>
whoops there goes our bot
<rjeffries>
hi xiangfu
<xiangfu>
rjeffries: Hi
<tuxbrain>
thanks rjeffries :)
<tuxbrain>
see you later guys
<wolfspraul>
100 is a very hard number to make, hard economically
<rjeffries>
too low
<wolfspraul>
also it requires smt, another big block of costs
<wolfspraul>
you will see later :-)
<rjeffries>
I was really looking at small number for playing around
<wolfspraul>
up to 10 is one path, for little boards like this you solder by hand if at all possible
<rjeffries>
I am only thinking of PCB fab
<wolfspraul>
100 for this thing is very tough
<wolfspraul>
I made 100 jtag-serial and it cost me 30 USD / pc, not even including the high-speed bug we still haven't fixed.
<rjeffries>
heh you do NOT understand I was lookig at how to get ONE for me and not have to do the whole PCB DIY is all\
<wolfspraul>
how do you solder?
<wolfspraul>
have you made stuff before?
<rjeffries>
look you think I am somthething I am not
<rjeffries>
I personally solder by hand
<rjeffries>
but I am aware people do small run smt using simple equipmet
<wolfspraul>
it's a qfn-28, right?
<rjeffries>
I have to look at all the specs
<wolfspraul>
ok anyway your approach is right, the numbers you posted also look right
<rjeffries>
I am NOt repeat NOT setting up a mfg busines was poking around to get some clue
<wolfspraul>
yes, great!
<rjeffries>
on wherher I might avoid misery
<wolfspraul>
I like to see familiar numbers :-)
<rjeffries>
you are paranoid I think
<rjeffries>
small smile
<rjeffries>
nobody can compete with Taiwan so copyleft is no threat
<wolfspraul>
could not disagree more
<rjeffries>
I suspec you may not mfg the werner uart board
<wolfspraul>
don't know yet. it just arrived on the scene for me.
<rjeffries>
those prices were RAW PCB
<wolfspraul>
of course
<rjeffries>
no assembly although that house will do it
<rjeffries>
it is a simle board IMO
<rjeffries>
tuxvran (david) has some dreams
<wolfspraul>
you can very well compete with Taiwan, or China, even if you do everything in or from the US.
<rjeffries>
maybe he will make them and I can buy one eventually
<wolfspraul>
I don't know whether the big guys will move out of China one day, but I definitely expect a lot of small startups manufacturing stuff outside China in coming years.
<rjeffries>
well the uart board opens the door to Nano talkin to control boards such as various and sundry aduino knockoffs
<wolfspraul>
along those lines, just quick, I read an interesting comment from HTC a few days ago
<rjeffries>
yes?
<wolfspraul>
they posted fantastic 2010 numbers, and expect even more growth in 2011
<wolfspraul>
mostly Android driven it seems
<rjeffries>
ok no big surprise
<wolfspraul>
but now - they will double the capacity of their factory near Shanghai
<rjeffries>
yup they make a great android phone maybe the best
<wolfspraul>
also no surprise
<wolfspraul>
and - build a new factory in Taiwan!
<rjeffries>
that is not a surprise is it
<rjeffries>
og that is interesting
<wolfspraul>
that's a big surprise. there has been nothing but a mass exodus in Taiwan the last 10 years.
<rjeffries>
spreading the risk around I guess
<rjeffries>
oh OK
<wolfspraul>
so maybe I'm overrating this from a press release, maybe it's just a small experimental line or whatever. but there may also be some bigger strategic thinking behind it.
<wolfspraul>
I found it interesting.
<rjeffries>
me too. I assumed China shadow is very marge over Taiwan
<rjeffries>
s/marge/large
<wolfspraul>
the last phone manufacturing in Germany closed many years ago, I believe it was a Motorola line making some high-end (back then) 3G phones
<rjeffries>
yup US has stupidly moved almost all mfg to China
<wolfspraul>
Nokia closed one too, maybe that was the last one.
<wolfspraul>
not sure about stupid, but yeah. there are very good reasons to do so.
<wolfspraul>
where are the non-stupid people then that invest contrarian ? :-)
<rjeffries>
for fast turn proto US can compete as you save time and hassle of customs and shipping costs
<wolfspraul>
if work like the one from Werner and copyleft hw in general continues, products like phones, smartphones, tablets, etc will first of all be demystified
<wolfspraul>
from there it should not be too big of a step to a real profitable business
<rjeffries>
oh I understand but in some ways globalization totally sucks
<rjeffries>
maybe that is a stretch to me  but also not something I worry about
<rjeffries>
On another matter I will email you a couple of questions directly
<czr>
Nokia still has a protoline in Salo AFAIK
<czr>
they closed the main higher-end one in Oulu already some years back
<czr>
also, regarding manuf in china/tw, AFAIK it's not really sane for batches of under 1k
<czr>
and there will always be interesting issues, certainly with higher technology stuff (BGA esp).
<rjeffries>
czr i worked at a US company that moved all manufacturing to China
<rjeffries>
it save a lot of money and in general with a LOT of care and feeding
<rjeffries>
quality was OK to excellent
<rjeffries>
they had dense ball grid arrays to yes soldering issues are always a bitch
<rjeffries>
czr may I ask weher you are on the globe? ;) I am california
<tuxbrain>
I'm back
<rjeffries>
tuxbrain hello
<tuxbrain>
hi, so dreaming hum?
<tuxbrain>
:)
<rjeffries>
I just sent wolfspraul a letter asking about uart card
<czr>
rjeffries, in Finland
<rjeffries>
Nice place I have visted a few times in an earlier life
<czr>
rjeffries, did you have existing people in China and how large batches did you do?
<czr>
it's nice in the summer. it's winter now. %#$#^#!!1one.
<rjeffries>
the compaby where I worked never had on-site person in China.
<czr>
isn't a winter-person
<czr>
hmm. so how did you find the proper factory over there?
<rjeffries>
batches were form a fe hundred to a few thousand very complex 8 or more llayer boards
<rjeffries>
trust me quality was an ongoing issue
<czr>
narrow pitch?
<czr>
it always is
<rjeffries>
the sheet metal was ok
<rjeffries>
oh yes. our CTO had a rule
<czr>
I guess the main problem would be how to communicate effectively the quality stuff..
<rjeffries>
if you have any gree showing on the PCB you have not packed enough on it
<czr>
hah
<rjeffries>
the contract manufacturer we used has SOME people with good english skills and who were smart
<czr>
well, the problem with electronics manuf nowadays is that even if you want to do PCBs locally, it's getting harder and harder now.
<rjeffries>
but lots of conference calls were dreadful
<czr>
we used to have a large electronics manuf industry in finland
<rjeffries>
yes it is due to environmental and other issues
<czr>
but all those companies have relocated to china now and pretty much no remaining manuf lines here anymore
<rjeffries>
but in medium quantity we can do ok in USA
<czr>
nods
<rjeffries>
ar eyou an EE
<czr>
we mainly do quite small runs, <500
<rjeffries>
what does your company do if I might sk
<rjeffries>
s/sk/ask
<czr>
I don't know what I am really. I interface quite a bit with our electronics designers and handle system level software issues.
<czr>
we make affordable modular home automation platform/system.
<czr>
(current market is in Finland only, so the web pages are all in finnish: www.ebts.fi)
<rjeffries>
ok cool. I will check it out
<rjeffries>
well there is this thing called google translate
<czr>
yes there is, but considering the pages are mostly marketing crap, I wouldn't really hold your hopes too high :-).
<czr>
do ask though, if interested..
<rjeffries>
ok. so what communication method do you use between master and slaves is it wirelss
<rjeffries>
brb
<czr>
we don't do wireless since there's no reliable way of doing it
<czr>
we use a star-topology and all the edge devices are "stupid"
<czr>
which keeps the cost down
<czr>
cabling is regular cat, nothing fancy.
<czr>
this also means that the system isn't really suitable for installs after the house has completed.
<czr>
a wireless sensor/switch-thingy is under development, but I'm busy with other crap now, so it will have to wait.. :-)
<rjeffries>
czr yeah wireless will help for existing residence
<czr>
nods
<rjeffries>
have you loked at waht Jee abs is doing?
<czr>
the main issue we have with wireless is security really.
<rjeffries>
s/abs/Labs
<rjeffries>
security is a bitch I agree
<czr>
hmm, not seen it
<rjeffries>
bright guy one man shop very inventive and a nice guy
<czr>
what does it use for radio and implementation?
<czr>
we've been playing around with a custom protol on top of 15.4 hw radio parts
<czr>
protocol even..
<rjeffries>
he uses the HopeRFÂ Â or similar chips in 800 Mhz or so
<rjeffries>
I think 802.15.4 radios is a good idea, that is waht werner is using
<rjeffries>
for atBen and atUSB (as you know)
<czr>
yes
<czr>
I did take a look at them at some point
<czr>
I really liked AT86RF stuff
<czr>
the problem with that is while it has integrated AES engine, you'd need to pass the data twice over SPI to the chip in order to do the stuff. and it has no integrated key storage so you'd need to pass the key as well over SPI
<czr>
so that kind of blows quite majorly.
<czr>
although there should be an integrated version of AT86RF and ATmega soon for the euro-band as well.
<rjeffries>
cool
<czr>
yeah, it was a fun project, but as said, been busy with other crap as of late..
<czr>
also, I really need to implement the crypto stuff properly. was thinking of using binary ECC, but its performance really blows
<czr>
so will have to try other stuff.
<rjeffries>
I had not thought through the security stuff at all
<rjeffries>
I've been thinking about a non-hostile environment
<czr>
there are no non-hostile environments with RF.
<rjeffries>
but that is naive for many real world situatons such as BUILGING COTROL
<czr>
yes
<czr>
which is why we don't do RF yet
<czr>
in our products I mean.
<rjeffries>
nods
<rjeffries>
why ar eyou endpoint non-intelligent? MCUs are so cheap maybe you did not mean no MCU, just limited intelligence
<czr>
so that we don't have to manufacture them and people are free to choose whichever switches they want according to their interior decoration needs
<czr>
while MCUs are "cheap", using MCUs is not.
<rjeffries>
has "limited intelligence" and needs sleep to maintain the small number of remaining brain cells. a neuron is a terrible thing to waste
<czr>
they need sofrware. they need someone to program them. they need software updates.. etc.. and everything costs.
<czr>
heh
<rjeffries>
ok I see what you are doing
<rjeffries>
understood
<czr>
yeah, I should really be working anyway.. :-)
<czr>
yeah, while from a hobbyist perspective, things are always easy
<rjeffries>
those 3rd party switches have mcus but it is not YOUR problem
<czr>
real life production tends to complicate stuff quite a bit :-).
<rjeffries>
ok nice meeting you and good dat/night/morning hwatever
<czr>
likewise, night night :-)
<czr>
(haven't had even lunch over here yet)
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: qfn-28 with a 0.45 mm pitch ;-) but it's not really harder than the usual 0.5 mm.
<wolfspraul>
wpwrak: yes but manually soldering those is in the higher levels of skill
<wolfspraul>
so unless Ron has soldered qfn before, that will already be a major learning blocker for him :-)
<wolfspraul>
not bad of course, can learn that too...
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: (how easy to use) well, first someone has to write some real firmware. right now, all it does is blink a LED :) doesn't even talk to the host.
<tuxbrain>
that someone is already assigned?
<wpwrak>
wolfspraul: (higher levels) indeed. takes a bit of practice and a slightly above baseline home lab. nothing overly fancy, though.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: (assigned) i guess i'll be the default victim :) but only when done/bored with atusb. that uart was mainly to test the programming process on a simple board, where mistakes hurt less.
<tuxbrain>
ok understood, something I can do to help you meanwhile just tellme , surelly the anwer will be "now I'm busy, I will do it later" :P
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: that's roughly what i had in mind indeed :-)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: but you can of course make a board and start hacking. don't have to wait for me :)
<tuxbrain>
ha! maximum experiment is to plug an Atmega328 on a bread board and try to mimic the connections with the breakout board, try to compile your patched avrdude, and see what happens
<tuxbrain>
I onli have a really basic soldering iron and no skills for smt
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: yet you build UV boxes for pcb-making ? :)
<tuxbrain>
that was victor :)
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: ah well, so you have an in-house backup available :)
<tuxbrain>
but we still have the problem of cut, and soldering
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: the cutting will be a bit tricky. may take a few attempts to get right. you have a few 100 um of acceptable tolerance, though.
<tuxbrain>
hehehe narrow margin for manual cut :P
<tuxbrain>
shit.. the atmegas I have arround are 5V
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: best to make a rough cut with a dremel first, then work the fine details with a knife
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: atmegas that can't do 3.3 V ? wow. are you sure ?
<tuxbrain>
I will review the ATMEGA328P-PU spreadsheet
<wpwrak>
1.8-5.5 V :)
<tuxbrain>
great then :) experiment is mantained in the todo list :)
<tuxbrain>
Arduino lovers will apreciate also to have a portable and cute atmega firmware flasher that can also play tetris :)
<tuxbrain>
and listen music
<czr>
tuxbrain, the voltage defines the max freq
<czr>
also most atmegas don't actually supprot 1.8V, only the PV series AFAIK
<czr>
3.3V is pretty safe all up to ~15-16MHz.
<wpwrak>
tuxbrain: now someone has to compose a song to play while flashing the firmware ;-)
<tuxbrain>
hahahaah
<tuxbrain>
mmm but you have given me an idea :), a guided flashing tool, a simple gui front end that tells you where to pinch what , select a file to upload and a tadaaaa! at the end of the flashing this + some arduino edit-compile enviroment even in console, will catch up more than 20.000x2 eyes :) maybe some one can decide also to buy one
<steve|m>
firmware-flashing via midi? hey, playing notes is way cooler than punchcards
<tuxbrain>
changing slightly of topic. I prefer female connections in the board if one day you decide to make me one :)
<czr>
steve|m, considering that midi doesn't even have crc.. :-).
<czr>
although one could add the crc separately by playing it. check-chord after 4 notes.
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: I know at least an artist who just does art. Her work was made for fun, to put the imagination on some paper, etc.. It is just pure art for her.. He would like to show her work to the world if she could. And she is really enjoying doing similar works with some collegues because they do things like workshops or similar (dont know the exact word). BUt well, I would like to tell you that if she needs some day to put some license on her work she w
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: And I know that she hates capitalismo and communism as well.. like the stickers.. no capitalism no communism..
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: but well, my point is.. if she needs some day to use some license because that is like the things work.. she would like to share the stuff but she would not like to see her stuff for sale. No becuse others could get money, because she hates that and she is not happy with art and money together..
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: would not be okey for her some license CC but no for commercial?
<zrafa>
I ask you because it looks like from your last mail you thinks that CC should have never done the non-commercial.. but I think that for some cases maybe it is useful. Still if it is useful for other meanings like the friend of mine (who would not use that license to avoid other to get money, she would use just because her thoughts are not happy with art and money together)
<wolfspraul>
zrafa: I think -nc and -nd are horrible ideas, yes.
<wolfspraul>
the lawyers who invented them should have interpreted their professional responsibility in such a way as to never create those licenses in the first place.
<wolfspraul>
I doubt the practical enforceability, let's just start somewhere.
<kristianpaul>
saluda
<wolfspraul>
there has been a lot of chat on this channel about -nc and -nd, no need to repeat even more, the archives should still have it
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: no, and I do not want to talk much about that (licenses). :)
<zrafa>
wolfspraul: just I was thinking on some usage of that
<wpwrak>
zrafa: -nc is just some expression of paranoia ;-)
<wolfspraul>
lekernel: hi there. do you know the de-bug.de magazine?
<lekernel>
hi
<lekernel>
no, I don't
<wolfspraul>
ok, I don't know the circulation (number of readers), but I want to take a shot to intro m1 to them, see whether they like it.
<wolfspraul>
I have a good introduction (a journalist who used to write for them years ago). They are in Berlin.
<wolfspraul>
so if it works out and they are interested, maybe you can go there to demo m1 to them?
<lekernel>
yeah go ahead
<wolfspraul>
ok, just wanted to check first
<wolfspraul>
I will email them, and basically offer that you go there for a demo (cc you, although I don't know whether I should email in German or English, maybe I email in German)
<wolfspraul>
when are you back in Berlin roughly?
<lekernel>
ok, i'll be back to Berlin on the 7th
<wolfspraul>
great
<roh>
window 14
<roh>
sigh
<kristianpaul>
(-:
<xMff>
who may I talk to about openwrt libiconv/libintl full/stub issues? I am about to make them switchable but packages needing them need some minor changes
<xMff>
I think I talked to kyak and bartbes the last time but not sure
<bartbes>
yeah, you talked to me
<bartbes>
but I can only complain ;)
<xMff>
heh
<xMff>
as I've noticed, qi-hardware now pins its feed to a fixed rev which is good, I just want to explain the new conventions for the intl/iconv stuff in case the feeds get updated sometime
<wpwrak>
xMff: kyak was the one who seem to have suffered most. not sure who's actually taking leadership on architectural questions, though
<wpwrak>
xMff: if you're subscribed to discussion@lists.en.qi-hardware.com, that may be a good place to post the conventions
<xMff>
okay
<xMff>
I am not yet but will probably subscribe later
<xMff>
I followed the list through the online archives until now
<wpwrak>
i hope everyone who cares reads the list. sometimes they're a little shy with responding :)
<kyak>
xMff: would be good to know about the switchable solution you've mentioned, could you post it in qi-hardware mailing list?
<xMff>
kyak: I'll post a summary
<xMff>
it boils down to an extra indirection and a new menuconfig option